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  #41  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2012, 7:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jaxg8r1 View Post
I wonder if Portland is seperated out because the city owns the streetcar, while Trimet (transit provider) owns Max LR?
Here's my thinking on inclusion of streetcar ridership in APTA light rail statistics:

On page 99 of its 2011 Fact Book, APTA includes "streetcar, tramway or trolley" in its definition of light rail, and in Table 16, APTA explicitly lists the Portland Streetcar as light rail.

Wikipedia notes "As with the heavier-duty MAX Light Rail network which serves the broader Portland metropolitan area, Portland Streetcars are operated and maintained by TriMet personnel. But unlike MAX, the streetcar system is owned by the city of Portland and managed by Portland Streetcar Incorporated..." That reads a lot like the Wikipedia entry for San Francisco's streetcar system: "While the F line is operated by the San Francisco Municipal Railway (Muni), its operation is supported by Market Street Railway, a nonprofit organization..."

Because APTA defines streetcars as 'light rail,' because APTA explicitly lists Portland's streetcar as light rail, and because TriMet does in fact operate and maintain the Portland Streetcar just as Muni operates SF's streetcars, I'm inclined to think APTA's Portland light rail stats include the streetcars. For the same reasons, I also think SF's streetcars are included in Muni stats. But I don't know for certain, and it's entirely possible I'm wrong about inclusion of streetcars in light rail ridership stats for one or both cities. I actually called APTA's DC office this morning for clarification (yeah, I'm a geek), but I only got a policy guy's voicemail and he hasn't returned my call. Haha.

Keep in mind that, almost uniformly, US agencies post lower ridership during the Fourth Quarter than the Second and Third Quarters. I hypothesize this is due to fewer people commuting to work and school during the holiday season, but regardless of the cause, it appears to be widespread across the country. APTA's Q3 report had weekday light rail ridership in Portland at 135,000, which would be more in line with what people seem to expect of combined streetcar/MAX ridership.
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  #42  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2012, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonboy1983 View Post
However, I think that if PAT were smart; that they not only build a LRT line between Downtown and Oakland but also having feeder bus lines throughout the entirety of the system
PAT has to worry about operating the system they have now instead of worrying about expansion.

Not sure if any of you are aware that PAT is going to eliminate weekend service on half of the Pittsburgh LRT network come September, and the remaining service is going to see service frequency cuts.
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  #43  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2012, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
Yes subway. Philadelphia's entire green line is light rail, including the parts of it that operate under ground. Exactly like Boston.

I think Philadelphia's purple line is also light rail, although I am not 100% sure.
The Norristown High Speed Line is a difficult service to classify. Fully grade separated with its own ROW, 3rd rail, but single cars. According to wikipedia it has been classified as light rail, but SEPTA currently classifies it as heavy rail.

The Green Lines in Boston and Philadelphia are an interesting comparison because they are both underground and fully grade separated in the city core with multiple lines branching off. But the parts of the Boston Green Line that I am familiar with run in its own ROW in the middle of the streets, separate from traffic except at traffic lights. While the Philadelphia Trolley Green Line is more of a streetcar/trolley because the cars run in the streets.

Separating light rail from streetcar systems into 2 distinct groups can be difficult because it is a continuous spectrum from fully grade separated light rail connecting places 5-10 miles apart to short range streetcar systems operating in the streets in a city core. Can understand why it is simpler to lump them into one light rail category.
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  #44  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2012, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
My 2030 Projections based on future development around lines and extensions...

7. Dallas - 83,400 > 110,000 (2030)

13. Houston - 36,100 > 147,000 (2030) (2030)[/COLOR]
Wow what are you basing these predictions on??
I'd argue Dallas ridership to skyrocket well ahead of this by 2025, much less 2030. By that time, direct rail service will be available between DTD and all of the major suburbs, and both major commercial airports.

Houston ridership will fall way behind Dallas as I doubt we'll even have rail outside the Beltway by then. But considering the Rapid progress thus far, I'm sure it'll exceed this prediction. If the University Line opens before 2020, ridership will exceed 200k before 2030.
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  #45  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2012, 10:45 PM
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Dallas has seen a tremendous increase in light rail ridership in just the last calendar year--from 65,100 weekday passengers to 83,400.
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  #46  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2012, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
My 2030 Projections based on future development around lines and extensions...

1. Boston - 233,300 > 290,000 (2030)
...
Some of your light colored fonts are rather hard to read. Just saying.

Your forecasts sure have a wide range from a percentage perspective. Personally I think a lot of official modeled projections that far out are going to be way off because we will be deep into the post peak oil era by then following a series of oil price and availability shocks. We will see moves to LPG and electric powered cars, but costs of all that will push many who are fortunate to live near transit system to take transit instead of driving. Resulting in overwhelmed transit systems. But that is just my opinion.

We will also see a number of new light rail and streetcar systems by 2030. The Washington DC area has plans for an extensive streetcar system in DC, the Purple light rail line in MD, and several streetcars in Arlington, Alexandria, Fairfax. I think most of what is planned will get built, although the DC streetcar project is going to continue to hit potholes and delays as it gets built. I won't venture to predict what the ridership numbers will be because there are too many unknowns for systems that are not running yet.

What other cities that are not on the current light rail list that are far enough along in the planning and funding process that they should have good sized systems by 2030? I figure the Norfolk/Virginia beach/Hampton Roads/etc metro region will see a lot of expansion of the light rail system, now that The Tide LRT has shown to be a major hit.
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  #47  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2012, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by fflint View Post
Here's my thinking on inclusion of streetcar ridership in APTA light rail statistics:

On page 99 of its 2011 Fact Book, APTA includes "streetcar, tramway or trolley" in its definition of light rail, and in Table 16, APTA explicitly lists the Portland Streetcar as light rail.

Wikipedia notes "As with the heavier-duty MAX Light Rail network which serves the broader Portland metropolitan area, Portland Streetcars are operated and maintained by TriMet personnel. But unlike MAX, the streetcar system is owned by the city of Portland and managed by Portland Streetcar Incorporated..." That reads a lot like the Wikipedia entry for San Francisco's streetcar system: "While the F line is operated by the San Francisco Municipal Railway (Muni), its operation is supported by Market Street Railway, a nonprofit organization..."

Because APTA defines streetcars as 'light rail,' because APTA explicitly lists Portland's streetcar as light rail, and because TriMet does in fact operate and maintain the Portland Streetcar just as Muni operates SF's streetcars, I'm inclined to think APTA's Portland light rail stats include the streetcars. For the same reasons, I also think SF's streetcars are included in Muni stats. But I don't know for certain, and it's entirely possible I'm wrong about inclusion of streetcars in light rail ridership stats for one or both cities. I actually called APTA's DC office this morning for clarification (yeah, I'm a geek), but I only got a policy guy's voicemail and he hasn't returned my call. Haha.

Keep in mind that, almost uniformly, US agencies post lower ridership during the Fourth Quarter than the Second and Third Quarters. I hypothesize this is due to fewer people commuting to work and school during the holiday season, but regardless of the cause, it appears to be widespread across the country. APTA's Q3 report had weekday light rail ridership in Portland at 135,000, which would be more in line with what people seem to expect of combined streetcar/MAX ridership.
Makes sense. I just was unsure if APTA was a membership organization, and perhaps the City of Portland wasn't a member and therefore didn't report statistics there.

Although, for reference, Trimet has released February's ridership numbers.
http://www.trimet.org/news/releases/...-ridership.htm
Weekday Max boardings, 126,800.
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  #48  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2012, 1:48 AM
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
PAT has to worry about operating the system they have now instead of worrying about expansion.

Not sure if any of you are aware that PAT is going to eliminate weekend service on half of the Pittsburgh LRT network come September, and the remaining service is going to see service frequency cuts.
No, I'm aware of that. Every time I read something on either the Post-Gazette or Tribune-Review websites that mentions something about Port Authority, I cringe.

Perhaps now is the time to integrate their bus and LRT routes into more of a shared system. Boost ridership for both bus and LRT, and boost fare box revenue. They need to look for other means of funding since Pennsylvania keeps running out of money when our transit systems need it most. How about generating more land revenue from adjusted property values? Public transit infrastructure causes some properties to increase in value. Use THAT to generate some extra revenue to fund the transit. Encourage those property owners to use the transit system. Then, come tax time, if they have purchased transit rides (i.e. smartcard/connectcard, whatever-they're-calling-it-cards, monthly passes, etc), they should declare that to Uncle Sam for a tax credit -- at the same time, Uncle Sam should implement a transit use program that gives tax benefits to transit users...
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  #49  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2012, 1:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
My 2030 Projections based on future development around lines and extensions...

1. Boston - 233,300 > 290,000 (2030)
2. San Francisco - 162,400 > 215,000 (2030)
3. Los Angeles - 154,500 > 630,000 (2030)
4. Portland - 126,500 > 175,000 (2030)
5. Philadelphia - 110,100 > 190,000 (2030)
6. San Diego - 103,400 (150,000 (2030)
7. Dallas - 83,400 > 110,000 (2030)
8. Denver - 66,800 > 132,000 (2030)
9. Newark - 65,000 * > 205,000 (2030)
10. Salt Lake City - 59,100 > 102,000 (2030)
11. St. Louis - 52,300 > 147,000 (2030)
12. Phoenix - 41,300 > 115,000 (2030)
13. Houston - 36,100 > 147,000 (2030)
14. San Jose - 32,900 > 72,000 (2030)
15. Minneapolis - 30,300 > 139,000 (2030)
16. Seattle - 27,800 > 163,000 (2030)
17. Baltimore - 27,200 > 87,000 (2030)
18. Buffalo - 24,500 > 45,000 (2030)
19. Pittsburgh - 24,200 > 125,000 (2030)
20. New Orleans - 19,700 > 25,000 (2030)
This projection is, of course, linear in the sense of users per kilometer of track.

Widely differing scenarios are possible which would, IMO, affect the estimation. For example,

A) let's we experience a real increase in income which might effectively finance a fast upgrade of the electric power grid and a real decrease in the price of an electric/hybrid/diesel car. The figures might drop,

I do not happen to believe this possibility is likely- so I'll give it a 10% chance of materializing.

Then we have 3 scenarios-

B) Constant real income of the upper 70% over 18 or 20 years. In this case, IMO, the increase in usage will reflect a constant slope. To calculate, take the increase in the rate of riders per kilometer of right-of-way between 2000-2010 and expand that rate of increase- say 3% per year, as an example- between 2010 and 2030. I have some confidence in this scenario, so I'll give it a 20% chance (in order for this growth to occurr, the economy has to grow, real GNP, equal to the increase in population. User ridership would double in about 24 years, so, take the base line figures and multiply them by 1.8 or so. IMO, the odds of this scenario might be 20%

This figure jives rather well with projected light rail usage in cities like #20 Buffalo, where the projected figures likely do not include additional lines.

C) No growth in the GNP between now and 2030 (not in inflated dollars but in accurately computed real dollars) The economy, bottom line, would stay where it is now while the population would grow 15-20%. In this scenario, increased cost of transportation as a proportion of income will rise significantly, as for many, lower transportation costs is easier than, say, reducing food costs. IMO, the rate of increase in per kilometer passengers would itself increase, at a rate faster than the rate of the increase of the population. However, at this level, a significant majority would still be able to use private automobiles on a daily basis, so the rate of passenger/kilometer increase might be say 5% per year. Using the '72' rule, 5% doubles every 14.4years.

Look at #18, Buffalo, NY. I suspect the calculations presented are assuming no new lines. 27K>45K. A 5% growth rate over 20 years would push the 45K figure to about 61K.

The problem, of course, is that metro-areas, as they have since the 1800s, will grow at differing rates, and, have different sets of median income that can be spent on population. Dallas, #7 on the chart, particularly stands out.

Dallas is has had the fastest growth in population of the all the major metro areas in the US (top 10). Looking at Dallas in 2030, what income levels will various percentiles have to spend on auto transportation? IMO, the decline in income of the bottom 70% of the population of Dallas will be significantly greater than Washington DC or New York, and the rate of increase of light rail per kilometer will likely increase at 50-75%% faster than the model average of 5% per year. Say 9%.

Using the 72 rule again, usage will double per kilometer every 8 years, and, quadruple in 16 years. Excluding the yet to built lines, then, by 2028, Dallas light rail might 325,000 to 330,000 or so riders per day.

I put the odds of this scenario at 60%

D) A real decline of our true GNP of 5-10% between now and 2030. I think that this is very possible. In this model, the US population would grow from 315meg to somewhere between 360 million and 375 million, while our per capita income would drop between 15% and 20%.

Public transportation would a national priority. Public transportation of all kinds would be flooded by new riders. Looking at Dallas, again, this growth on per kilometer riders (not including new lines) might really grow: say to an average growth rate of 10% spread over 20 years. Using the 72 rule, again, the riders per kilometer would increase 7 or 8 times, say 580k to 660K per day.

I put odds at this at 10%

My point is that these figures discussed above, reflect assumptions based on economic projections that are no longer valid. Call them "Old School", where public transportation is a small player in most metropolitan areas, carrying 3-7 or 8% of the transportation trips.

The new reality, while, of course, at best is seen "through a glass darkly", reflects a South and Southeast Asia whose net growth will continue, a vibrant Brazil, and a wealthy resource dominant Russia. Wealth will continue to accumulate in the petro-rich states.

We will be wrestling with vast amounts of worthless dollars, or will have taken a severe downward adjustment to mark to market. But, people will still have to work, if only to work for food, heat, and, very rudimentary shelter.

This type of thinking must, IMO, reflect light rail, commuter line, bus line, etc., in a probabilitic fashion: as I have said many times here before, plan for over use (which has not been done in US steel rail since the Pennsylvania Railroad electricfied the New York to Washington corridor in the 1930s.)
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Last edited by Wizened Variations; Mar 17, 2012 at 2:07 AM.
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  #50  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2012, 2:28 AM
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There streetcars , routes 10, 11, 13, 34, and 36 like seen below operate with traffic and are known by the locals as trollies and Septa has them as streetcars.

Video Link


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Light Rail ie 101 & 102

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  #51  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2012, 2:41 AM
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Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post
Some of your light colored fonts are rather hard to read. Just saying.

Your forecasts sure have a wide range from a percentage perspective. Personally I think a lot of official modeled projections that far out are going to be way off because we will be deep into the post peak oil era by then following a series of oil price and availability shocks. We will see moves to LPG and electric powered cars, but costs of all that will push many who are fortunate to live near transit system to take transit instead of driving. Resulting in overwhelmed transit systems. But that is just my opinion.

We will also see a number of new light rail and streetcar systems by 2030. The Washington DC area has plans for an extensive streetcar system in DC, the Purple light rail line in MD, and several streetcars in Arlington, Alexandria, Fairfax. I think most of what is planned will get built, although the DC streetcar project is going to continue to hit potholes and delays as it gets built. I won't venture to predict what the ridership numbers will be because there are too many unknowns for systems that are not running yet.

What other cities that are not on the current light rail list that are far enough along in the planning and funding process that they should have good sized systems by 2030? I figure the Norfolk/Virginia beach/Hampton Roads/etc metro region will see a lot of expansion of the light rail system, now that The Tide LRT has shown to be a major hit.

I really didn't think about Peak Oil , but with that factored in it be alot higher. I think once we pass Peak oil , Transit expansion will take off. I was just factoring in the Green line extension to Medford. DC , Baltimore , and NOVA will build wonder systems....how extensive will they be by 2030 is the question.
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  #52  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2012, 7:15 PM
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No, you are entirely wrong. If you had read the report, you would know two things: Portland's streetcar is included in that city's "light rail" stats, and San Francisco's cable cars are not. APTA lists cable cars as a separate mode of transportation, and San Francisco's cable cars carry 19,300 weekday riders. If we added that to SF's light rail ridership we'd get 181,700 weekday passengers on all San Francisco Municipal Railway trains.
This was my reference for the post:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s_by_ridership
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  #53  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2012, 9:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
...Dallas, #7 on the chart, particularly stands out.

Dallas is has had the fastest growth in population of the all the major metro areas in the US (top 10). Looking at Dallas in 2030, what income levels will various percentiles have to spend on auto transportation? IMO, the decline in income of the bottom 70% of the population of Dallas will be significantly greater than Washington DC or New York, and the rate of increase of light rail per kilometer will likely increase at 50-75%% faster than the model average of 5% per year. Say 9%.

Using the 72 rule again, usage will double per kilometer every 8 years, and, quadruple in 16 years. Excluding the yet to built lines, then, by 2028, Dallas light rail might 325,000 to 330,000 or so riders per day.

I put the odds of this scenario at 60%...

So you're saying there is a 60% chance Dallas LRT will be transporting 325,000 to 330,000 "or so" passengers per day by 2028? What would you put Denver's projected LRT daily ridership at by 2028?

One problem I have with your scenario, is it assumes the USA (it's people, politicians and government system) are stupid, stagnant, unable to adapt, stuck in a rut of constant decline, and Just downright foolish as we will allow other developing nations and super powers to use us all up and in doing so fuel those country's rises, to super power status. This is a very pessimistic, disrespectful, unpatriotic attitude and it suggests a lack of dignity for people, citizens, politicians of this nation. Unlike respect, dignity is not something which is either earned nor lost.

This great nation has a bright future ahead of it, my good friend. Believe in our people, philosophies, principles and government. We will continue to adapt, grow, innovate and drive the global community towards becoming a united and truly space fairing race.
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  #54  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2012, 9:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SnyderBock View Post
So you're saying there is a 60% chance Dallas LRT will be transporting 325,000 to 330,000 "or so" passengers per day by 2028? What would you put Denver's projected LRT daily ridership at by 2028?

One problem I have with your scenario, is it assumes the USA (it's people, politicians and government system) are stupid, stagnant, unable to adapt, stuck in a rut of constant decline, and Just downright foolish as we will allow other developing nations and super powers to use us all up and in doing so fuel those country's rises, to super power status. This is a very pessimistic, disrespectful, unpatriotic attitude and it suggests a lack of dignity for people, citizens, politicians of this nation. Unlike respect, dignity is not something which is either earned nor lost.

This great nation has a bright future ahead of it, my good friend. Believe in our people, philosophies, principles and government. We will continue to adapt, grow, innovate and drive the global community towards becoming a united and truly space fairing race.
I hope you are right with your line of thinking, but he does have a point. This country does not seem to be in a huge hurry to reinvent itself. In a sense, we ARE laggign behind some of the other developed (and developing) nations out there who are building infrastructure that is far superior to our own.

I agree tho; we need people with a "can do" attitude to get things rolling as we dig ourselves out of the recession and move ourselves forward.
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  #55  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2012, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Okstate View Post
This was my reference for the post:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s_by_ridership
Yeah? Well it's incorrect. You should probably believe an official APTA report before you believe a wikipedia list that anyone can edit and make mistakes on.
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  #56  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2012, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Okstate View Post
This was my reference for the post:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s_by_ridership
That Wikipedia list was objectively wrong in including the cable cars with light rail ridership figures, so I fixed it. They source their SF figures to APTA's 4th Quarter ridership report, but that report clearly and explicitly separates the two modes--cable car ridership is reported separately from light rail ridership. If the two different modes were combined, the figure would be 181,700 weekday Muni rail riders.
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  #57  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2012, 2:43 AM
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And then some cunt reverted my edit on Wikipedia to retain the false information. Fortunately, this forum is more dedicated to truth than Wikipedia's homer trolls.

According to APTA--the source the Wikipedia article purports to use--the San Francisco Municipal Railway has:
284,100 weekday motor bus riders
208,600 weekday trolley bus riders
162,400 weekday light rail riders
19,300 weekday cable car riders
674,400 total weekday riders
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  #58  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2012, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post
The Norristown High Speed Line is a difficult service to classify. Fully grade separated with its own ROW, 3rd rail, but single cars. According to wikipedia it has been classified as light rail, but SEPTA currently classifies it as heavy rail.

The Green Lines in Boston and Philadelphia are an interesting comparison because they are both underground and fully grade separated in the city core with multiple lines branching off. But the parts of the Boston Green Line that I am familiar with run in its own ROW in the middle of the streets, separate from traffic except at traffic lights. While the Philadelphia Trolley Green Line is more of a streetcar/trolley because the cars run in the streets.

Separating light rail from streetcar systems into 2 distinct groups can be difficult because it is a continuous spectrum from fully grade separated light rail connecting places 5-10 miles apart to short range streetcar systems operating in the streets in a city core. Can understand why it is simpler to lump them into one light rail category.
Portions of the 15 operate in designated ROWs but they aren't fully segregated from regular traffic whereas the southern portion of the 36 is a fully separated ROW.
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  #59  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2012, 1:22 AM
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Courtesy of Smuttynose1

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Originally Posted by Smuttynose1 View Post
The Fourth Quarter transit ridership numbers are out from APTA and TRAX has edged up to an average of 59,100 weekday riders (up from 55,500 riders last quarter). Most other agencies seemed to stay flat or drop a bit, with the exception of Dallas, which jumped significantly (Dallas opened a new light rail line which opened in entirety in December 2010).

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  #60  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2012, 9:47 AM
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That big dip in Denver's 3Q 2010 numbers, was actually misreported by the APTA. APTA reported Denver as only averaging 41,000 weekday riders, when in fact the correct ridership was 61,000. It was off by exactly 20,000 weekday riders. That one quarter dip in ridership, did not occur.
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