Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

You are correct in that the mill rate for 2017 was 13.063, but I was using the 2018 mill rate of 12.987. Regardless, a 0.076 difference in the mill rate is not going to result in a substantially different calculation. I can re-run through the scenario in my previous post with the slight change, but I'm sure your capable of doing the simple mathematical exercise yourself.

As for including school division taxes, then sure, the chart then becomes accurate for Winnipeg. But it then makes Winnipeg look disproportionately taxed because not all city's levy education taxes from properties. So in cities that have a different tax structure where education tax is not charged on the home owners property tax bill, it makes it appear as though those cities are significantly cheaper to live in. The truth is that the education system is funded out of provincial money one way or another, so those people end up paying regardless, just perhaps not on their property tax bill.

On this particular subject though, we are talking about revenues the municipality receives. So when doing this, we need to compare apples to apples, which means looking strictly at municipal taxes, excluding education or whatever other levies are applied that don't go to a municipality. To do this, the Calgary Property Tax survey does the best job, not some garbage from media outlets who can barely do math correctly, let alone understand each major city's unique property tax structure.

I don't need you to do a calculation and understand comparing apples to apples, but if that's the goal you need to look at all municipal taxes paid from all sources. Montreal charges a gas tax for example. Certain cities include water in their tax bill, Winnipeg it's charged separately .

I was simply pointing out that when you were asserting how the various media sources incorrectly calculated Winnipeg's tax rate, you were incorrect. The zoocasa source was perfectly correct in it's calculation on what would be paid on a property tax bill, and the first graph didn't simply use the mill rate as you claimed they did.

[asher__jo]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

You are correct in that the mill rate for 2017 was 13.063, but I was using the 2018 mill rate of 12.987. Regardless, a 0.076 difference in the mill rate is not going to result in a substantially different calculation. I can re-run through the scenario in my previous post with the slight change, but I'm sure your capable of doing the simple mathematical exercise yourself.

As for including school division taxes, then sure, the chart then becomes accurate for Winnipeg. But it then makes Winnipeg look disproportionately taxed because not all city's levy education taxes from properties. So in cities that have a different tax structure where education tax is not charged on the home owners property tax bill, it makes it appear as though those cities are significantly cheaper to live in. The truth is that the education system is funded out of provincial money one way or another, so those people end up paying regardless, just perhaps not on their property tax bill.

On this particular subject though, we are talking about revenues the municipality receives. So when doing this, we need to compare apples to apples, which means looking strictly at municipal taxes, excluding education or whatever other levies are applied that don't go to a municipality. To do this, the Calgary Property Tax survey does the best job, not some garbage from media outlets who can barely do math correctly, let alone understand each major city's unique property tax structure.

Glad you cleared that up. We really shouldn't be considering property taxes with school, as the city does not see that revenue.

[1ajs]

dont forget this is a transit thread

[LilZebra]

Transit Unions cost more in the long run, and should be abolished to run our city's transit workers, so says John Stossel...


• Video Link

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by LilZebra

Transit Unions cost more in the long run, and should be abolished to run our city's transit workers, so says John Stossel...


• Video Link

He’s not wrong. In Winnipeg the issue is more with police and fire though.

[Curmudgeon]

Yet another corporate hit piece on organized labour, which more or less is the last defender of the shrinking middle class. It is corporate welfare that is bankrupting the public purse. Instead of being concerned about transit drivers in New York getting a (barely) living wage, perhaps the corporate media might shine a brighter light on the sweetheart deal that Amazon just got from the taxpayer. Winnipeg was in there like a contemptible grovelling hack as well! If I remember correctly, someone's buddy walked away with a few hundred grand to produce a video that could have been produced by a high school film class. We are only so fortunate that neither this city nor any other Canadian city was selected.

Yes, there are examples where pubic sector staffing levels, salaries and benefits are unsustainable, the WPS is one, but transit drivers are most certainly not overcompensated.

[Curmudgeon]

Laughable that a suggested plan for a half a billion dollar east BRT between downtown and Transcona is to run the buses through windswept brownfields where people will have to walk 10 minutes to access the nearest thoroughfare. Rhetorical question indeed, but really, how many people will use BRT stations in the middle of desolate and forlorn areas where almost nobody lives? I would be petrified to wait for a bus at such a station (the current Fort Rouge Station is a perfect example) esp. if I was a lady travelling alone and after dark.

[bomberjet]

There really should be no stations like that, I agree. It should just be a bus freeway, with routes entering and exiting as required. No stations in the middle of nowhere.

This is the thing. To provide proper BRT located within built up neighbourhoods is nearly impossible without billions of dollars.

So which one is it. Provide straight, more direct routes separated from neighbourhoods? Bus freeways that can move people on express rotues faster.
Or provide less direct, slower routes with stop lights in the built up areas?
Both?

[bomberjet]

For clarity, the proposed routes now have the route I showed removed. So the City is giving up on BRT and providing diamond lanes where they can.

https://winnipegtransit.com/assets/2...te_Options.pdf

[Curmudgeon]

Neither. Rail-based rapid transit on dedicated rights-of-way serving areas that already have high ridership.

Perhaps I was too harsh on poor Fort Rouge station. With its aura of loneliness and spooky vibe, it is the perfect location for filming a sequel to Guy Maddin's My Winnipeg.

[esquire]

^ FWIW, Fort Rouge Station (and others along the line) were intended to be surrounded by TOD. Only recently has that begun to materialize, but yes, even then it still feels pretty forlorn and almost abandoned, even at busy times.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ FWIW, Fort Rouge Station (and others along the line) were intended to be surrounded by TOD. Only recently has that begun to materialize, but yes, even then it still feels pretty forlorn and almost abandoned, even at busy times.

Agreed, it feels ominous when I ride the bus down there at night, I always see someone get off there and feel like I am the last person to see them alive. There is always someone getting off there though when I use it, it does seem to be a used station. Maybe in 5 years it will be much busier and less murdery.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by dmacc

Agreed, it feels ominous when I ride the bus down there at night, I always see someone get off there and feel like I am the last person to see them alive. There is always someone getting off there though when I use it, it does seem to be a used station. Maybe in 5 years it will be much busier and less murdery.

So far I haven't been murdered when using Fort Rouge station at night, but yeah, it certainly feels like it could happen there. The sheer darkness once you move 100 feet away from the station shelter contributes to that.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Neither. Rail-based rapid transit on dedicated rights-of-way serving areas that already have high ridership.

Perhaps I was too harsh on poor Fort Rouge station. With its aura of loneliness and spooky vibe, it is the perfect location for filming a sequel to Guy Maddin's My Winnipeg.

K, yes. But we know that's not whats happening unfortunately because of cost. Just like my BRT through built up areas thing.

So we're left picking up the pieces. This is where I have a difficult time with the planning that's going on.

[buzzg]

Obviously I'd love to be able to build out a full RT network to the max all at once... but TBH, doing a proper BRT corridor from the getgo is prohibitively expensive, I'd rather do some of the proposed upgrades and then get to work on another corridor. Either to the west or north.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Rhetorical question indeed, but really, how many people will use BRT stations in the middle of desolate and forlorn areas where almost nobody lives? I would be petrified to wait for a bus at such a station (the current Fort Rouge Station is a perfect example) esp. if I was a lady travelling alone and after dark.

Solution: Get in car and drive to where you want to go. Very little chance of being murdered.

Ever wonder why transit ridership is so low? Much nicer to ride in a private vehicle without the stabbing.

[LilZebra]

^^^


Even with car ownership, there is always a chance of being 'carjacked' or your precious Christmas gifts stolen before the day.

[buzzg]

That's fine if you take your car, but I don't care if you have to wait in traffic an hour to get anywhere while my bus passes. And I usually drive to work a few times a week.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by LilZebra

^^^


Even with car ownership, there is always a chance of being 'carjacked' or your precious Christmas gifts stolen before the day.

Let's not forget the people who die or are maimed in accidents. Driving is not exactly a risk-free undertaking either.

[buzzg]

Car accidents are the #2 cause of accidental death, behind poisoning. Almost 38,000 people died in car accidents in the USA last year. That doesn't include all the injuries, and subsequent healthcare needs, which in Canada, we all pay for.