hypothetical - tearing down Scotia Square

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

Where have you heard that the Trade Centre is coming down?

I never meant that it was coming down. I hope the new center is going to be built. This would allow some changes inside the current trade center. I was not aware of the current 5yr leases though. If anything does become of SS as far as residential, I'm sure it's at least 10-12 years away.
I agree with everyone else though. Lets get the holes filled in first. This is just something I hope happens in my lifetime.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am skeptical that an urban format Sobeys would be successful downtown given the low population density. A business like that has zero drawing power to bring in residents from other neighbourhoods and is not helped very much by the presence of office workers.

Had the UG towers been built along with half a dozen of the proposals on Barrington they might have made something like that feasible.

I agree. It is important to remember that when the shopping portion of Scotia Square opened, it was seen as little different from the other malls that were constructed previously. It was felt that the parkade would function like typical mall surface lots, and that people would travel there for their regular shopping. It didn't work out that way -- people were reluctant to go to a parking facility where you might have to pay if you didn't buy anything, and the concept of a parking garage of that size was new and foreign to most here at the time. It just wasn't consumer-friendly. That's why most big retailers demand free, convenient, surface parking for most of their stores. Anything else generates some risk of consumer acceptance.

I recall the SS Sobeys as it was originally, and it was little different from the other stores Sobeys had at the time. It tried to be a full-service grocery store and while it could draw from the 3 apartment blocks connected to SS and from the office workers in the towers above, obviously that wasn't enough. I'm sure that filling the shelves was also a challenge. SS isn't exactly truck-friendly. I used to shop fairly often at the old Woolco there when I lived downtown and thinking back on it now I wonder how they managed the logistics of getting all that merchandise in there. Woolco even had a furniture and appliances section originally. I assume all of that stuff came up by what must have been a pretty massive freight elevator.

[Jstaleness]

I'm only aware of the one shipping/loading area below the complex. It uses the same elevators as you would use for the parkades. There must be other areas that I have not seen.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Jstaleness

I'm only aware of the one shipping/loading area below the complex. It uses the same elevators as you would use for the parkades. There must be other areas that I have not seen.

There are large freight elevators from the internal loading area that go up to the mall levels (I seem to remember at least two, but that was back in the mid1970's). To get things up to the towers then the freight elevators would be used to the mall levels and the freight would then be transferred to the regular elevators. I remember a fairly large internal loading area (I thought that it was near the Delta hotel section - at street level). Scotia Square is quite impressive in the underground sections where most people don't usually go (however, that was 35 years ago when I was easily impressed).

I don't really want to see Scotia Square torn down - however if it could be chopped into a couple of smaller blocks then that would be a plus (in my opinion).

[Waye Mason]

I think that on the Duke and Market side, even on the Cogswell side if the interchange was gone, that you could bring the building right out to the sidewalk line, and fix the feel of it. Street level shops, 3 stories, massing that is appropriate, blah blah.

Barrington is hard, as Keith earlier, that is basically the back of the building. But yeah, I think that the way it impacts the street could be mitigated. I also heard a rumor that one of the towers is being considered for residential? Interesting idea.

[halifaxboyns]

I'd like to see the mall spruced up. I think I've said in another thread but I'll put it here where it should've been; I would not be opposed to seeing the NSP office tower converted to residential of some sorts. I'm sure it would be a challenge, but if the office market is weak - then lets think outside the box and make it something different. I think that the building could be modified if the investment is made and as I pointed out to someone123 in my original post; it would add much needed density without having to take the mall down.

Also; could add much needed people there.

[someone123]

The best thing for Scotia Square would be a few 40 storey residential towers on top. Two of them could front onto Market Street and would have decent street frontages. They could have whatever amount of structured parking in behind. The Trade Mart could have a similar treatment and there's the proposal for the nearby corner that used to have the little church on it. The key to this area is pretty much just to have more people living there.

Once it's busier they can bite the bullet and redo the mall portion. It needs to be opened up onto Barrington and other streets so it feels like a part of the downtown. I don't think breaking up the "super block" is actually that important or valuable -- it's the periphery that matters most.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by someone123

The best thing for Scotia Square would be a few 40 storey residential towers on top. Two of them could front onto Market Street and would have decent street frontages. They could have whatever amount of structured parking in behind. The Trade Mart could have a similar treatment and there's the proposal for the nearby corner that used to have the little church on it. The key to this area is pretty much just to have more people living there.

Once it's busier they can bite the bullet and redo the mall portion. It needs to be opened up onto Barrington and other streets so it feels like a part of the downtown. I don't think breaking up the "super block" is actually that important or valuable -- it's the periphery that matters most.

Could someone build 40 stories with the rampart rules in place? I think they'd be lucky to make it to 30, but still that's not bad.

The super block - there really is no point to fixing it and putting it back. Nothing really gets accomplished other than having to add extra stop signs and traffic lights to what will already be a complicated intersection once the Cogswell Interchange is removed.

Personally; I'd like to save the trade mart side for the next metro centre - when it's needed. If the right economic circumstances hit in the next 10 years; it may be needed. Unfortunately, I don't think the existing MC can really expand a whole lot if the old WTCC is kept. Certainly the viewplanes prevent it from growing up.

The mall can be so much more - Crombie either doesn't want to invest or is happy with status quo. But that doesn't mean we can't dream and at some point someone will start thinking about what to do with it. It could certainly use a make over.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Could someone build 40 stories with the rampart rules in place?

Probably not. I think the rampart rule is silly and should be eliminated.

The super block - there really is no point to fixing it and putting it back. Nothing really gets accomplished other than having to add extra stop signs and traffic lights to what will already be a complicated intersection once the Cogswell Interchange is removed.

I agree. If there were smaller blocks there now I would probably be against combining them but unless the idea is to redevelop the whole area I really don't see the point in punching holes in Scotia Square just so that we can feel better about having smaller blocks.

The mall can be so much more - Crombie either doesn't want to invest or is happy with status quo.

I'm guessing that the office towers are much more lucrative than the mall.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by someone123

Probably not. I think the rampart rule is silly and should be eliminated.
I agree. If there were smaller blocks there now I would probably be against combining them but unless the idea is to redevelop the whole area I really don't see the point in punching holes in Scotia Square just so that we can feel better about having smaller blocks.
I'm guessing that the office towers are much more lucrative than the mall.

For me; I see value in the rampart rule if heritage is an important part of what makes HRM what it is. Personally, I'm willing to trade off a building height in some parts of HRM - but I think the limit to the rampart rule should mainly end at Barrington Street. Anything not in a viewplane and below Barrington (when combined with design rules to prevent 'walling off' the viewplanes) should be able to go higher - I'm mainly thinking the Cogswell Interchange area and should twisted sisters be built; anything behind it would mainly be obscured by TS.

I still firmly believe that converting Barrington Tower would be a great thing for residential densities in the downtown - especially if office vacancy rates are looking like there could be a prolongued high level of vacancy. If there isn't a need for the offices, lets look outside the box and build something different.

Let's be honest about the money - it probably isn't a money loser. Those businesses do well during the weekdays; the lunch hour rush must make them good money otherwise they wouldn't be there (they'd have closed up shop). But I suspect they don't break even on weekends, which explained why many were closed on sunday even though the mall was open. Also, from what I've read of Crombie, they are mainly a commercial real estate holder. So I doubt they'd convert the Barrington Tower to residential - it's probably too far outside their 'box', but I could be wrong.

I suspect that having a downtown grocerry store (at current population numbers) probably isn't going to happen. But, in 5 years time after the Brewery tower is completed, Hollis and if Discovery Centre and the Roy Buildings go through with residential (and any residential as part of Nova Centre) - there may be enough residential densities to add a sobeys or superstore. Although, as I believe KeithP pointed out - if Pete's is already on Spring Garden, one could argue there is already a grocery store for downtown.

[someone123]

I believe Crombie (or a related company) owns Park Lane and the Martello residential building was built on top of it.

I also suspect that they make money off of the mall but what I was suggesting in my post was that it might not be worth it for them to invest a lot into the mall. I'm sure there are many ways of spending tens of millions of dollars that would produce bigger payoffs.

It makes no sense to say that the rampart rule should apply only above Barrington because the point of the rule is to keep buildings from being visible from within the ramparts. The effect is similar whether you have a 25 storey building around Grafton or a 75 storey building around Lower Water Street. I think it's a poorly conceived rule and I disagree with the idea of adding red tape purely because it is pro-heritage (which may well not be true of this on the balance).

I dislike the ramparts bylaw pretty much specifically because it is justified as "pro-heritage". That's not a real reason. A sound analysis of the bylaw would look at the concrete benefit that it produces (no buildings visible inside the Citadel) and compare it to the downside (severely restricted height in the entire downtown). When you look at the bylaw clearly it doesn't look reasonable.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Although, as I believe KeithP pointed out - if Pete's is already on Spring Garden, one could argue there is already a grocery store for downtown.

I agree... I think if another "downtown" grocery store were to be added it should go in the Gottigen/Agricola corridor. Right now the superstore on Young or the Sobeys on Windsor serves that market, but if some of these higher density developments come about (like the liquor store one on Agricola) they might justify a small format grocery store to compliment the large format SS/Sobeys.

[dmac26]

When I was living in Toronto I used to show at the small "Sobeys Urban Fresh". I dont think you need the huge warehouse grocery stores in the city (downtown). Something along the line of Pete's or even smaller is fine in the base of a residential tower.

[beyeas]

exactly what I meant.

Pete's does very well to service the condo towers immediately around, Schmidtville, and of course draws from the SE.

A similar concept would work very well in say the liquor store condo building on Agricola, and likely wouldn't compete with the big box ones either.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by beyeas

exactly what I meant.

Pete's does very well to service the condo towers immediately around, Schmidtville, and of course draws from the SE.

A similar concept would work very well in say the liquor store condo building on Agricola, and likely wouldn't compete with the big box ones either.

Pete's does great business. It also helps that shows like 'French Food at home' on the food network show Laura Caulder shopping in the store. I think the Sobey's Urban fresh model was really what the store in Scotia Square was trying to be, although I seem to recall that it was an IGA not sobeys?

I wouldn't mind seeing a full sized store pop up on Agricola if the area heavily increased in density (say 3 or 4 towers like proposed for the liquor store site).

[Grav]

This is where I have to speak up. I have been browsing through this site for a few months now looking at the development happening in this city I have to say that I completely disagree with this topic.


I dislike the way everyone talks about it like it’s a big concrete wall standing in the way of everything. Ive read idea’s of opening a pedestrian walkway through the middle or restoring the street grid. Both if which I think are completely pointless. The small streets that would be formed would not be major traffic routs and would just make the city more car friendly while putting people out in the snow and rain. Which I think has been happening way too much these days. If you want to get up to Albemarle street you just have to go through the mall which itself; is one of the most pedestrian friendly spaces in the city. Its indoors, climate controlled and has some attractive features like the glass solarium on the Barrington side featuring circa 70’s brick pillars, wood finish and the hanging lights that give everything a golden glow at night not to mention the fountain in the center court which is currently all decked out for the holidays. The mall has a lot of personality which is more than I can say for the behemoth HSC and Micmac malls which have had the personality facelifted right off of them in recent years.

I have to agree though they have not taken very good care of it. That courtyard in the middle is terribly out of shape and needs to be restored to its 1969 glory. Also Crombies Messy Bell Aliant windows on the Duke/Barrington corner clash with the whole thing. I know that part of the building used to be the theater and was a big featureless brick block, but they could have done something a bit more attractive with it. Perhaps windows that match the pre existing ones on the towers? Another thing that looks great with brick is ivy growing down the side.

The biggest problem is that Scotia Square has been misused. We had this large street level retail space where the old Woolco used to be that could have been filled with another great store but they go and make it into a useless call center. A Winners or some other similar anchor for the mall would have been prefect where we don’t have those kind of retailers down town forcing people to bus all the way out to messes like bayers lake and Dartmouth crossing thus contributing to suburban sprawl. The whole reason city center developments like Scotia Square were constructed was to fight that sprawl. To shatter those super blocks is completely counterproductive.

Scotia Square is one of my favorite buildings in this city (being a big fan of mid-century architecture of the 60’s and 70’s. Its one of the most “City-like” things we have down town. And I find the design of the building to be both ambitious and impressive and I have done a lot of research into its history. It has played a much more positive role in this city than the tiny slum blocks that preceded it.

For your viewing pleasure, A youtube video on the subject of City center superblocks and the fight against suburban sprawl. The video features an open air mall which with our maritime weather isn’t ideal but it’s the same principle.. The video was produced by Victor Gruen associates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj0UTOXwskI

[fenwick16]

Hello Grav. Welcome to this forum.

Although, I agree with your desire to see Scotia Square become more retail oriented, the concept didn't succeed in attracting people downtown. Having worked there for a couple of summers during the mid 1970's as a student, I can say that the mall didn't have the shopper traffic required to make it financially viable to retailers (although the food court was quite busy at lunch time). I think that Scotia Square is an impressive building but if I had the power to go back in time and change it (and the viewplane by-laws), I would have a couple of 30 storey towers with smaller blocks. Maybe even have one block as just parking and the others with ground floor and enclosed shopping areas. And also, I wish they could re-clad the apartment buildings that are along Market Street (Ablemarle Street).

[worldlyhaligonian]

Welcome to the forum Grav.

This thread is just a place to come up with potential ideas, I've changed my opinion on this site several times and agree with many of your points.

Here's what I ultimately think should happen from the discussion:

1) Reclad the SS towers in modern glass.
2) Convert one of the larger towers into residential.
3) Improve the ground floor exterior and courtyard.
4) Fix up the interior and bring in some more relevant stores, bring in a small urban format grocery store.

If International Place and most of the proposed residential for DT ever gets built, I think the mall would do alot better.

[halifaxboyns]

Welcome Grav.

I too echo WH's comment. When I found this topic; I saw it as a 'vision' exercise in what could be or 'could have' been.

The fact Aliant put it's call centre in there; was probably one of the worst things that could've happened - although having worked in that call centre, it's a very impressive space. As I recall; the area is so big that the isles are given street names so that people can find their way around and the kitchen/eating area that projects out on the Barrington/Duke Corner was a nice space to sit and relax when not working. Considering how Aliant has been downgrading their staff in that location; it makes me wonder how much longer they will be remaining in the location. The same holds true for the Scotia Bank call centre across the hall - which took up the rest of the 2nd floor.

I think with the downtown population being what it is now; something like a winners would not do so well and probably wouldn't have done well if it went in (instead of Aliant) considering the DT population was even lower at the time. They'd do okay with daytime office people, but weekends would've been tough. But, considering the number of residential projects on the table (or already approved), that population is growing. I suspect the Brewery tower will go forward in the next few years which add more people, plus Trillium - that will help. Nova has some residential; which is always helpful as well. When you add in the Roy Building and Discovery Centre proposals plus some of the projects for the block that contains Neptune Theatre (I've heard they had residential in it); that will add good numbers to the downtown.

Personally, I agree with WH that with NSPI moving out of Barrington Tower there is an opportunity to think outside the box and convert their tower into residential to add more density. I do agree that trying to reform the old blocks is pretty much useless - the need for the parking garages would pretty much prevent it. I'd also like to see some of the structure recladded, same with the apartment buildings. But firstly - convert the Barrington Tower to residential.

But I think in the next 5 years if aliant moves out of the old Woolco space - I completely agree with your comment, something like a winners or homesense would be great to move in and start building up the retail again. I'd also suggest that the parking rate should be reduced on weekends. They did that here in Calgary for 'The Core' shopping centre after it's major renovation and the opening of the new Holt Renfrew Store. I have to say; it's amazing and I'd suggest that the skylight over the central core could be re-done like what they did for the Core; but to a SS scale. But the reduction in parking has made the mall very busy on weekends.

Here is a thread with pictures - just to give some ideas for SS.

[someone123]

I actually kind of like the architecture of the old Scotia Square towers. Cogswell Tower is less appealing.

Many Scotia Square-like malls are successful in other downtown areas in Halifax and other cities. Park Lane is in better shape along with some of the others nearby like City Centre Atlantic and Spring Garden Place. These have lots of residents very close by. The Maritime Centre mall and Scotia Square struggle because they are almost purely surrounded offices. Office workers pretty much only want places for lunch and some other limited shops and services.