Arena or Amazon: Does Seattle know what's important?

[M II A II R II K]

Arena or Amazon: Does Seattle know what's important?


February 20, 2012

By Jordan Royer



Read More: http://crosscut.com/2012/02/20/real-...-s-important-/

We witnessed two blockbuster deals for Seattle and the region last week. One, the proposal to build a multi-use sports and entertainment venue in the SoDo neighborhood, captured the imagination of sports fans everywhere. The other, the announcement of Amazon’s intent to purchase three blocks in the Denny Triangle from the Clise family received nominal coverage. By any economic measure, though, the Amazon deal is much bigger for Seattle, with no public funds expended. What does this say about us? And how does this reflect how we will negotiate with the NBA, the arena ownership group, and others in the coming weeks? Will we be optimistic while at the same time maintaining a healthy dose of skepticism? And will we separate the emotional from the economic?

- First, consider the Amazon deal to build 3 million square feet of office space, creating thousands of jobs, including the revenue that will create new shops and restaurants, and real estate excise taxes (REET) for the city. This is a huge long-term commitment that will continue to pay huge economic dividends far into the future. The thousands of high-paying jobs that will grow here because of this deal dwarf the economics of a new arena. As our vice president would say, “this is a big f#%&ing deal!” In most cities this would be the biggest deal in decades. There would be press conferences, celebrations, and photo ops — but not here. Not in Seattle. Here, we are under the trance of something that transcends economics. We see an opportunity to get back what was stolen from us: our beloved Sonics.

- We have been given an opportunity at redemption by a local guy from the neighborhood, Chris Hansen. Hansen graduated two years behind me at Roosevelt. I never knew him but am proud nonetheless that he is stepping forward with this plan. Hansen has made a proposal to the city to bring back the team that is both generous and audacious. The mayor and the county executive are completely right to work with him to find a way to make this happen. I don’t doubt Hansen's civic pride as the driving force for his proposal. Because, let’s be honest, the year-to-year economics of an NBA franchise don’t add up. The return on investment comes upon the selling of the team. Ask the former ownership group of the Sonics — the people who have their names on the symphony, opera, aquarium, and zoo.

- Since the team itself will only cost money, other avenues of profit must be opened. Will there be opportunities for investors to build hotels, condos, and restaurants? Is the new arena (likely a mall with a basketball court and hockey rink) a catalyst for more development and rising property values? Who knows? What kind of traffic mitigation is planned for the area to keep things moving while not threatening the port’s international competitiveness? How many new parking spaces will be needed? It’s doubtful that fans from Bellevue paying $100 for a ticket will be taking the bus in.

- And finally, why has Seattle Center always been rejected so out of hand? Aren’t we investing millions in traffic improvements there? Wouldn’t it be great for Lower Queen Anne businesses to be bustling again with Sonics fans? Three million square feet of office space being built by Amazon is within walking distance to the Seattle Center. The Gates Foundation is right there. We know that KeyArena is not big enough to house all the restaurants and shops that are part of the new NBA economic model. But there must be space to build what’s desired there.

.....

CenturyLink and Safeco Field could be joined by a sports arena.






The courtyard outside the Van Vorst Center on Terry Avenue N. offers seating for Amazon employees and the public.

[pesto]

The Seattle demographic looks a bit thin for an NBA team. Three-fourths of the teams are already losing money or break-even (which means losing if accounted for properly) and this looks like another case of a team that will start asking for money or threatening to leave in about 2 years. See, also, Sacramento, Memphis, New Orleans, etc.

Amazon, of course, looks like a winner.

[gtbassett]

Originally Posted by pesto

The Seattle demographic looks a bit thin for an NBA team. Three-fourths of the teams are already losing money or break-even (which means losing if accounted for properly) and this looks like another case of a team that will start asking for money or threatening to leave in about 2 years. See, also, Sacramento, Memphis, New Orleans, etc.

Amazon, of course, looks like a winner.

The Sonics were loved and adored by Seattle until their departure to Oklahoma City in 2007 to become the Thunder. The only reason they lost their team was lack of funding for an arena and a shrewd move by Clay Bennett the recent owner of the team to move them to his hometown. I think the Sonics fans would file right back into a new arena to watch a new incarnation of their team even if many of them have turned their back on the NBA since that fateful day in 2007, while the rest have adopted the Blazers as their NBA team to root for.

[Fiat Lux]

Originally Posted by pesto

The Seattle demographic looks a bit thin for an NBA team.

Are you joking? Seattle was easily one of the best NBA cities. Led the league in total attendance multiple times. Sold out every game multiple seasons despite top 5 in the league ticket prices.

Seattle is a big time basketball city. Look at all of those Seattle area folks playing in the NBA.

The NHL would be a slam dunk too. Seattle is a great sports city, plus being near Vancouver and Portland would help an NHL franchise.

[mhays]

A metro of 4,200,000 looks thin? I'm forgetting, but aren't we by far the largest city without NBA?

[10023]

Originally Posted by mhays

A metro of 4,200,000 looks thin? I'm forgetting, but aren't we by far the largest city without NBA?

Just to play devil's advocate... if those 4.2 million people are whiter, better educated and more affluent than the average metro area, it would probably bunch below its weight in terms of interest in NBA basketball.

Then again, Portland has a team.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by 10023

Just to play devil's advocate... if those 4.2 million people are whiter, better educated and more affluent than the average metro area, it would probably bunch below its weight in terms of interest in NBA basketball.

Then again, Portland has a team.

I don't know if you've ever been to an NBA game, but it's mostly affluent white people.

[Doady]

I think there need to be more NBA teams in Pacific Northwest, either Vancouver or Seattle, if not both. Portland is too far away from other NBA teams now, it's really isolated. That's a big problem if you think about team travel. And as said, theat's a large population without an NBA team as well (and no NHL team either).

[10023]

Originally Posted by J. Will

I don't know if you've ever been to an NBA game, but it's mostly affluent white people.

Sure at the games, because tickets are expensive and the good seats are all corporate. I'd be more interested in the TV viewership demographics, and the merchandise sales.

I go to Knicks games from time to time when I get invited to a friend's company's box at MSG, but I don't think anyone I know ever watches them on TV or owns a hat. And that's exactly my point...

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by 10023

Sure at the games, because tickets are expensive and the good seats are all corporate. I'd be more interested in the TV viewership demographics, and the merchandise sales.

I go to Knicks games from time to time when I get invited to a friend's company's box at MSG, but I don't think anyone I know ever watches them on TV or owns a hat. And that's exactly my point...

^ White people don't watch NBA games on TV?

That's news to me...

I guess all of the "white" males that I work with who earn good 6 figure incomes must actually be a different race

[Fiat Lux]

Originally Posted by 10023

Just to play devil's advocate... if those 4.2 million people are whiter, better educated and more affluent than the average metro area, it would probably bunch below its weight in terms of interest in NBA basketball.

That's very closed minded, and even racist?. Seattle is a great basketball city. Top 10 in the USA, easily.

Nate Robinson
Jamal Crawford
Jason Terry
Rodney Stuckey
Terrence Williams
Brian Scalabrine
Spencer Hawes
Martel Webster
Jon Brockman
Avery Bradley
Marvin Williams
Isaiah Thomas

That's an NBA roster amount of current NBA players from the Seattle area. Brandon Roy and Aaron Brooks were both 18+ points a game scorers in the NBA in recent seasons, both from Seattle. Luke Ridnour, another NBA player is from an hour and a half north of Seattle and Steve Nash is from a 75 mile ferry ride away in Victoria, BC.

Seattle has hosted 5 NCAA Final Fours. Led the NBA in total attendance multiple times. Was the first city to average over 20,000 fans a game over an entire NBA season.

Great great basketball city.

[min-chi-cbus]

Originally Posted by Fiat Lux

That's very closed minded, and even racist?. Seattle is a great basketball city. Top 10 in the USA, easily.

Nate Robinson
Jamal Crawford
Jason Terry
Rodney Stuckey
Terrence Williams
Brian Scalabrine
Spencer Hawes
Martel Webster
Jon Brockman
Avery Bradley
Marvin Williams
Isaiah Thomas

That's an NBA roster amount of current NBA players from the Seattle area. Brandon Roy and Aaron Brooks were both 18+ points a game scorers in the NBA in recent seasons, both from Seattle. Luke Ridnour, another NBA player is from an hour and a half north of Seattle and Steve Nash is from a 75 mile ferry ride away in Victoria, BC.

Seattle has hosted 5 NCAA Final Fours. Led the NBA in total attendance multiple times. Was the first city to average over 20,000 fans a game over an entire NBA season.

Great great basketball city.

Isaiah Thomas is from Chicago, not Seattle.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by min-chi-cbus

Isaiah Thomas is from Chicago, not Seattle.

Isaiah Thomas and Isiah Thomas are not the same person.

[JiminyCricket II]

Originally Posted by 10023

Just to play devil's advocate... if those 4.2 million people are whiter, better educated and more affluent than the average metro area, it would probably bunch below its weight in terms of interest in NBA basketball.

Then again, Portland has a team.

Absolutely untrue, as already been mentioned, the Sonics had some of the best fans in the league.

In addition, Seattle produces the 7th most NBA players out of every metro in the US, easily the most per capita. It's a huge basketball town.

Originally Posted by 10023

I go to Knicks games from time to time when I get invited to a friend's company's box at MSG, but I don't think anyone I know ever watches them on TV or owns a hat. And that's exactly my point...

If you're a Knicks fan then you know a couple recent Knicks that are Seattlites: Crawford and Robinson.

[10023]

Originally Posted by JiminyCricket II

If you're a Knicks fan then you know a couple recent Knicks that are Seattlites: Crawford and Robinson.

I'm not a Knicks fan, I go when I get free corporate tickets. That was my point (i.e., I think that's why half of the fans at MSG are there). But I think the discussion has run its course...

Originally Posted by Fiat Lux

The legendary college programs are located in Kansas, Indiana, Kentucky, North Carolina, and Bel-Air of all places!

Ok, one more point... college basketball fans and NBA basketball fans are totally different. I know many, many people who are avid college fans, especially during March Madness, who couldn't give a rat's ass about the NBA (I'm one of them). This is in contrast to football, anecdotally.

[Fiat Lux]

Originally Posted by 10023

Ok, one more point... college basketball fans and NBA basketball fans are totally different.

You are talking to a current and former season ticket holder of both. I am well aware of both the college and NBA game. Stupid ignorant stereotypes do not trump reality. In Seattle, the college and NBA fan bases are very similar. I am sure it is different in NY, where the Knicks have the NBA's most expensive ticket. In the old days, the Sonics would play the bigger games (Bulls, Blazers) in front of 30,000 people in the Kingdome, so more of the average Joes could attend.

Seattle was one of the best NBA cities when it had a team. It led the NBA in total attendance multiple times. It sold out every single game in a season many times despite top 5 ticket prices. It was the first franchise to average over 20,000 fans a game over an entire season.

NBA in Seattle has been and would be a slam dunk success.

[pesto]

Originally Posted by mhays

A metro of 4,200,000 looks thin? I'm forgetting, but aren't we by far the largest city without NBA?

Isn't it more like 3.4M for the metro? This would make it smaller than the IE (or the OC plus Northern SD County) either of which would be good locations for expansion. btw, if you put "LA" in the name (e.g., LA Royals) you could get a great cable deal from one of the big boys, and probably Latin and Asian distribution.

If you're saying that Seattle is better than New Orleans, I wouldn't disagree with you; but maybe not enough larger to warrant the cost of a new arena and a relocation. After all, New Orleans fans are pretty rabid as well.

[Fiat Lux]

Originally Posted by pesto

Isn't it more like 3.4M for the metro? This would make it smaller than the IE (or the OC plus Northern SD County) either of which would be good locations for expansion. btw, if you put "LA" in the name (e.g., LA Royals) you could get a great cable deal from one of the big boys, and probably Latin and Asian distribution.

If you're saying that Seattle is better than New Orleans, I wouldn't disagree with you; but maybe not enough larger to warrant the cost of a new arena and a relocation. After all, New Orleans fans are pretty rabid as well.

4.1 million in metro Seattle, and growing. That's more people than metro New Orleans, metro Memphis, and metro Oklahoma City combined! Washington was one of 6 states to add over 100,000 people since April 2010.

New Orleans fans are not rabid. They couldn't even sellout playoff games, before Hurricane Katrina. Watch Hornets games on TV. They are embarrassing with all of the empty seats in the lower bowl.


Have you looked at the arena details in Seattle? It basically costs the public nothing. The public contribution is $200,000,000 in bonds to be paid back by rent and ticket sales at the arena with all shortfalls being covered by the private arena corporation.

[bnk]

Originally Posted by Fiat Lux

4.1 million in metro Seattle, and growing. That's more people than metro New Orleans, metro Memphis, and metro Oklahoma City combined!

.

The U.S. Census Bureau defines the metropolitan area as the Seattle–Tacoma–Bellevue, WA Metropolitan Statistical Area, with an estimated population of 3,344,813 (just under half of Washington's population),[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_metropolitan_area

Take your case to the census bureau than. Anyway like 10023 said, whites don't play basketball.

Originally Posted by Doady

10023 is right. Basketball is a black sport. An NBA team cannot survive in a city with so few black people.

[JiminyCricket II]

Originally Posted by bnk

Take your case to the census bureau than. Anyway like 10023 said, whites don't play basketball.

Sure thing, let's take it up with the census bureau: CSA is almost 4.2 million in 2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing...tistical_areas), and in line with what's important in this discussion: media market. Whites do play basketball, but that has nothing to do with the NBA in Seattle at any rate.

Why the hell is everybody bringing race into this thread?