Calgary Housing Market

[freeweed]

Everyone,

We keep bringing this up in the regular construction thread and there seems to be enough activity to warrant a separate place for discussion.

Me being one of the worst offenders, I figure it's time to fix this

Let's use this as a place to discuss everything going on with Calgary's housing market - prices as they move, pros/cons, all that stuff.

[Ferreth]

Alright, in terms of affordability. I just checked www.realtor.ca, and right now, there are 23 detached houses for sale at $250K or less. It's mostly Forest Lawn and north, but hey, it's a whole house, within the realm of an $80K combined income, which is nothing special these days.

If you want an apartment, there is a ton of stuff available at $150K, which is affordable on an average single salary. Here is an example, in a pretty nice area. I'd say this might be a fixerupper that I would look at if I was buying these days.

Yes, Calgary is no longer like other small-medium prairie cities where anyone can buy a house. Calgary is closer now to a Vancouver or Montreal than a Saskatoon or Sarnia - prices reflect that. Oil and Gas inflates it some, but don't kid yourself - we ain't ever going back to the days of anyone affording a house here.

[frinkprof]

While I like reading the market reports and discussion, I really don't have the expertise or experience to make predictions and comparisons. All I know is that, as a first-time buyer, I'm not looking forward to when I start looking to buy more seriously. I would like a townhouse/apartment condo that's reasonably "inner city," but may have to settle for something a little further out than I'm hoping for.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

as a first-time buyer (snip) (I) may have to settle

This should be the city's new mantra. It surprises me how this seems unusual to people here. I guess Calgary used to be even cheaper than I realize. I also guess it depends on where you are as "first time buyer" - if you're 35 but have been saving for a decade, then yeah, you might expect something more than a fixer-upper in Forest Lawn.

I just always grew up expecting to start off in a real piece of crap at a young age, and work my way up from there. Calgary has an inordinate number of people in their 20s living in beautiful nearly-new large homes/condos, and I think we all suffer a bit trying to keep up with the Joneses.

Of course for those of you wanting to live inner city, THAT has changed tremendously.

[frinkprof]

^Haha. Point taken. However, when I mentioned settling, I was mostly talking about geographic location rather than quality of construction/square footage. I'll also have a big limiting factor in the way of parking. I can't do underground due to the height clearance, so that rules out a lot of apartment buildings. even though I could probably afford a resale or maybe lower-end newer unit.

[Fiveway]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

While I like reading the market reports and discussion, I really don't have the expertise or experience to make predictions and comparisons. All I know is that, as a first-time buyer, I'm not looking forward to when I start looking to buy more seriously. I would like a townhouse/apartment condo that's reasonably "inner city," but may have to settle for something a little further out than I'm hoping for.

I've always felt there was never enough choice in housing stock. I'd love to see a reasonably affordable inner-city townhome, but they simply don't exist as far as I can tell. Everything I see is high-end and expensive. Much more expensive, in fact than my small inner-city detached house.

[Fiveway]

Originally Posted by freeweed

This should be the city's new mantra. It surprises me how this seems unusual to people here. I guess Calgary used to be even cheaper than I realize. I also guess it depends on where you are as "first time buyer" - if you're 35 but have been saving for a decade, then yeah, you might expect something more than a fixer-upper in Forest Lawn.

I just always grew up expecting to start off in a real piece of crap at a young age, and work my way up from there. Calgary has an inordinate number of people in their 20s living in beautiful nearly-new large homes/condos, and I think we all suffer a bit trying to keep up with the Joneses.

Of course for those of you wanting to live inner city, THAT has changed tremendously.

Another good point. Calgary has been so cheap that nearly anyone could move here and buy a nice, new or nearly-new single-detached home over 1500 sq/ft in a decent neighborhood. That neighborhood might be Taradale, where you alternate between the risk of getting eaten by Pit Bulls or having your car spraypainted by bored teens, but it could be a lot worse.

This is what people in Calgary feel entitled to, and I don't get it. It doesn't strike me as realistic.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Fiveway

I've always felt there was never enough choice in housing stock. I'd love to see a reasonably affordable inner-city townhome, but they simply don't exist as far as I can tell. Everything I see is high-end and expensive. Much more expensive, in fact than my small inner-city detached house.

Agreed. One of the biggest reasons we didn't even consider inner city is that I (given the choice) will never live in a tower again. Well, at least not at this stage of my life when I have all the fun toys. Some nice row housing may have at least given us the option.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Fiveway

Another good point. Calgary has been so cheap that nearly anyone could move here and buy a nice, new or nearly-new single-detached home over 1500 sq/ft in a decent neighborhood.

Realistically, you still can - except those that are just barely starting out.

If someone is moving here from somewhere else and has owned for any amount of time, you'd think they'd have some equity in their house. I'd think the "average" person should have maybe $50,000 (number pulled out of my arse) to put down on a house here, and with $100,000 family income, that puts you into a $350,000 house. Which you can buy, today, in many "nice" neighbourhoods in Calgary. I don't think my house is valued much higher than that with the recent downturn. I know for a fact that if you go garageless, you can buy new houses around me for less than that.

And if you're moving to Calgary without either of those (the downpayment or the decent incomes), well, you're starting out. Even new grads moving here are able to make $50,000 for the most part, unless you work in a very low paying industry.

But no, Calgary's definitely not the place to move to if you work in a low-paying job (or are single income unless one of you works in Banker's Hall). Which sucks in terms of diversifying the economy here (but again, there is always the $200,000 condo option).

[Me&You]

Originally Posted by Fiveway

I've always felt there was never enough choice in housing stock. I'd love to see a reasonably affordable inner-city townhome, but they simply don't exist as far as I can tell. Everything I see is high-end and expensive. Much more expensive, in fact than my small inner-city detached house.

But what do you consider 'affordable' and what do you expect from a townhome?

Maybe there's more variety to the 'townhome' form than I'm familiar with, but I think of 2-3 floors, attached, with an under drive or rear detached garage. Based on that, the units are likely at least 1600sf. Calgary's current inner-city land costs and per sf construction costs, there's just no way for a builder to sell for much under $500k.

I'd like a nice house in Mount Royal for $500k like you could've bought a few years back, but just cause I want it doesn't mean it'll happen.

[mwalker_mw]

What I would love is to be able to buy an empty space in a highrise for a reasonable cost. Let me choose how to lay it out, and what to put in it. Let me pay based on location and sqft alone.

This whole game of every new condo offering "high end furnishings" is complete BS. The architects behind some of these projects need to spend some time actually living in a 500sqft apartment. Why, having a bathroom occupy 15 - 20% of the space would seem like a good idea is completely beyond me. And really, NOT EVERYONE NEEDS OR WANTS A *#^$% BATHTUB. Complete waste of space. And what is up with the bathtub plus shower configs in only 800sqft. A bit of sense and consideration could make for much better use of the space we have now resulting in inner city living that is actually affordable.

I only need 600 - 700 sqft to be very comfortable but it has to be a well layed out 600 - 700 sqft and not full of useless shiny crap that they insist on installing by default.

I'm curious what the bare cost of 750sqft in a beltline highrise would be. Small balcony, good quality windows, seals etc. Basic amenities (elevator, lobby, garbage, parking). How much on average per square foot for say a 25 story building? I would think these could be churned out at a very reasonable price with a good margin for the builder, quick construction due to simplicity, and still be at a price point where many more people could buy. I'm not advocating "cheap" build quality here, but rather, making a well built but simple space affordable and letting people build, over time, the details to make a quality home.

[mwalker_mw]

Building on my previous rant...

What happened to buying the land and building a home and lifestyle throughout your life.

Seems the currently the only readily available product, innercity or suburb, is a prepackaged home and lifestyle that few can really afford.

At 25 I don't expect to be able to afford my dream property. But it would be nice to be able to invest in the location now and build over time rather than wasting money and effort in flipping location after location until I'm satisfied.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by mwalker_mw

Building on my previous rant...

What happened to buying the land and building a home and lifestyle throughout your life.

Seems the currently the only readily available product, innercity or suburb, is a prepackaged home and lifestyle that few can really afford.

At 25 I don't expect to be able to afford my dream property. But it would be nice to be able to invest in the location now and build over time rather than wasting money and effort in flipping location after location until I'm satisfied.

I don't know where the heck you can do this in a modern city (buy land and do as you please). Seemingly everything is locked up by developers.

[Wentworth]

Originally Posted by Me&You

But what do you consider 'affordable' and what do you expect from a townhome?

Maybe there's more variety to the 'townhome' form than I'm familiar with, but I think of 2-3 floors, attached, with an under drive or rear detached garage. Based on that, the units are likely at least 1600sf. Calgary's current inner-city land costs and per sf construction costs, there's just no way for a builder to sell for much under $500k.

I'd like a nice house in Mount Royal for $500k like you could've bought a few years back, but just cause I want it doesn't mean it'll happen.

Not to mention the DP and associated costs, especially if you have to deal with NIMBY neighbours. Why go through all that hassle to build one inner city townhome complex when you can build 5 for the same effort on the edge of the city?

[Doug]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I guess Calgary used to be even cheaper than I realize.

Calgary used to be insanely cheap. I had a 1,200 sq ft 2 bedroom in Connaught Gardens (Sturgess building in the Beltline) for which I paid $120K in 1995. I only paid $220K for my 2,600 sq ft house backing onto Fish Creek park in 1997. Prices have only been insane since about late 2005.

[Me&You]

Originally Posted by Wentworth

Not to mention the DP and associated costs, especially if you have to deal with NIMBY neighbours. Why go through all that hassle to build one inner city townhome complex when you can build 5 for the same effort on the edge of the city?

Not necessarily my point, but I see what you mean.

For an inner-city townhouse project, a developer has to buy a large lot (or two adjacent lots), get the zoning, permits, design, build, market... can't be selling those units for $250k... just. can't. do. it.

Don't get me wrong... I'd love to have Bankview, Mission, Cliff Bungalow, Sunnyside, Hillhurts, etc covered with Connaught Gardens style projects available to everybody at even $300k... it would make for a great inner city, but it can't be done!

[mwalker_mw]

I don't know where the heck you can do this in a modern city (buy land and do as you please). Seemingly everything is locked up by developers.

I should clarify - I was meaning this in a figurative sense. The modern equivalent would be buying one's 750sqft in a tower with no finishings, minimal amenities, etc. to get the best possible price. 4 walls, a floor, a ceiling and a couple of doors. Then, build the details as finances allow.

An entire community (the tower) developing this way would lead to very interesting places I suspect.

My hope would be this would allow for a much more affordable entry point for new buildings then the current $500+/sqft.

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by mwalker_mw

Building on my previous rant...

What happened to buying the land and building a home and lifestyle throughout your life.

Seems the currently the only readily available product, innercity or suburb, is a prepackaged home and lifestyle that few can really afford.

At 25 I don't expect to be able to afford my dream property. But it would be nice to be able to invest in the location now and build over time rather than wasting money and effort in flipping location after location until I'm satisfied.

To quote some idjit: "developers, developers, developers". Part of why I didn't consider a new home is the suburb "packaged lifestyle". To buy in an area I have to use a particular set of developers, with a particular set of house plans. Fuck that shit. Your only real option for independent development is to buy an old house that is a tear down and, build from there. The city's requirements will be far less restrictive than any suburb area. But, you are talking big bucks. An innercity lot with a craptastic house will run you $300K (there is a riverfront lot for sale right now in Inglewood at exactly that price)
House - add 200K for something modest, and you are at $500K. But, with patience, you can be where you want, with what you want. It's just a bit out of my price range .

I like your bare apartment idea - buy a shell and build it your way. Somebody should do this!

[bob1954]

Dense neighborhoods with more multi-storied, multi-family units and a little bit of "overbuilding" would help. There just is'nt enough supply out there. And I don't care what anybody says, there a vast majority of families or singles tha t are'nt in the 100K income level.

[WhipperSnapper]

I should clarify - I was meaning this in a figurative sense. The modern equivalent would be buying one's 750sqft in a tower with no finishings, minimal amenities, etc. to get the best possible price. 4 walls, a floor, a ceiling and a couple of doors. Then, build the details as finances allow.

An entire community (the tower) developing this way would lead to very interesting places I suspect.

My hope would be this would allow for a much more affordable entry point for new buildings then the current $500+/sqft.

I'm pretty sure the building codes do not allow for this. A developer must supply a useable kitchen for example.

Different situation. I spend some time in Europe and wasn't too big on the ideal of having to buy flooring, cabinetry, lighting , etc. for the apartment I was renting. It was moreso the freedom lost of feeling stuck in one place then the actual expense. I certainly will never view floating laminate flooring or modular cabinetry the same way as most North Americans do again.