What If A Different City Was Chosen For Canada's Capital?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Wouldn't it also depend on how much the Francophone population stays large in Quebec as with the original "revanche du berceau" idea (keeping a potential pool of Francophones too numerous to be assimilated in the smaller cities/towns of the province of Quebec, even if the capital becomes Anglo-dominated, and also able to send Francophone migrants into the city and across the country), and also how the Quiet Revolution turns out?

Or also how immigration vs. natural growth shapes the relative share of the two solitudes?

Generally speaking, I think Montréal as the more anglo-hegemonic capital of Canada with lots of francophones living in and around it would have led to a more bitter and intense but less politically impactful and successful separatist and nationalist movement. Maybe more violent too.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Generally speaking, I think Montréal as the more anglo-hegemonic capital of Canada with lots of francophones living in and around it would have led to a more bitter and intense but less politically impactful and successful separatist and nationalist movement. Maybe more violent too.

Would it be also because an Anglo-dominant Montreal would have the potential to pull away the Francophone population and assimilate them into Anglo culture, no matter how high the natural birth rate or pool of surrounding Francophone smaller cities and countryside would be?

Or perhaps Quebec city would grow to become larger and more the core city of "Francophone Canada".

Now that would be an interesting alternative history -- an enlarged separatist movement coming from a larger Quebec city than exists currently, challenging and threatening the Anglophone-dominant Montreal which would be Canada's capital (with the Francophone minority caught within in), while Quebec as a province overall is larger in population with a diminished importance of western Canada and Ontario. It would be a world where the Anglo-vs. French battle was fought within Anglo-Quebec and French Quebec (with rest-of-Canada still Anglophone but now of less importance with the eastward locus of Canada's power being around "Laurentian" Canada) as much so as our current world where it's a Quebec vs. "the rest" issue.

But then wouldn't the westerners (if they're going to be descended from Anglo settlers or Americans or immigrant homesteaders) feel even more estranged from "back east"? Canada would be even less united!

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Would it be also because an Anglo-dominant Montreal would have the potential to pull away the Francophone population and assimilate them into Anglo culture, no matter how high the natural birth rate or pool of surrounding Francophone smaller cities and countryside would be?

Or perhaps Quebec city would grow to become larger and more the core city of "Francophone Canada".

Now that would be an interesting alternative history -- an enlarged separatist movement coming from a larger Quebec city than exists currently, challenging and threatening the Anglophone-dominant Montreal which would be Canada's capital (with the Francophone minority caught within in), while Quebec as a province overall is larger in population with a diminished importance of western Canada and Ontario. It would be a world where the Anglo-vs. French battle was fought within Anglo-Quebec and French Quebec (with rest-of-Canada still Anglophone but now of less importance with the eastward locus of Canada's power being around "Laurentian" Canada) as much so as our current world where it's a Quebec vs. "the rest" issue.

Interesting scenario.

This is sort of what I was alluding to when I made the comment of francophone Quebec "divorcing" Montreal to allow creation of a Canadian capital territory. I assumed that Quebec City would grow larger than it is now, and would assume the mantle of the primate French Canadian city. The cultural revolution would still have occurred, and perhaps even a separatist movement, but without Montreal at it's heart, it would not have been as successful a project.......

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The delights and advantages of anglo-British-white society were always accessible to French Canadians provided they assimilated and learned proper table manners.

It wasn't ever anywhere close to being as easy for African-Americans.

Same goes for indigenous people.

Originally Posted by someone123

When older Francophones have talked to me about how they saw discrimination play out in the 1940's and 50's they've mostly focused on language. The biggest issue mentioned is that if you were Francophone you could easily get your education in French, start a low-level career in French, and then find out that if you wanted to progress past a certain level in your career you suddenly would have to operate in English or take exams in English even if your day to day work was completely in French. The English-speaking workers would not be subject to similar bureaucratic requirements.

(This is part of why when some people say they'll pick up Mandarin next Tuesday if we switch over they sound very naive to me.)

There was also "base" discrimination with people calling Francophones slurs and thinking they were stupid, etc. But I think focusing on that too much really muddies the waters more than clarifies what Canada was like in 1950 or even 1850. And these days people tend to rely too much on vague racism as a way of explaining past motivations.

If you stretched the "black-white in the US with Anglo-French in Canada" analogy farther with the hypothetical "Montreal as hegemonic minority Anglo-Canadian dominated capital" scenario, you could draw a parallel with the white-dominated Washington DC elites surrounded by the black American majority which came from both free blacks as well as a history of the Great Migration (yeah, DC is no longer black majority but it was for many decades).

But, as you mention, unlike with skin colour, a "hereditary stigma" is unlikely to have stayed with "assimilated French Canadians". It's unlikely that a French Canadian can be told apart from an Anglo one by the average person without language or surname info.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Doug

...and made it infinitely less interesting and full of brutalist government buildings

Would Madrid or Buenos Aires be any more interesting as well if they weren't capitals?

The reason for Ottawa's (or DC's, or Canberra's, etc) dull reputation comes from its single-function government town existence moreso than from any intrinsically boring quality of a capital city.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I generally see francophone Quebec and French Canada living or dying with what happens in Montréal and environs. It became has been home to most of the country's francophone population since before Confederation.

Also possible in this hypothetical scenario would be that the centre of Francophone culture moves to Quebec City instead.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Interesting scenario.

This is sort of what I was alluding to when I made the comment of francophone Quebec "divorcing" Montreal to allow creation of a Canadian capital territory. I assumed that Quebec City would grow larger than it is now, and would assume the mantle of the primate French Canadian city. The cultural revolution would still have occurred, and perhaps even a separatist movement, but without Montreal at it's heart, it would not have been as successful a project.......

In terms of geographical area and population, the Francophone share would not be as strong in coverage across Canada as French Canada loses the area around greater Montreal, even if Quebec City manages to attract and consolidate as capital of French Canada, since Montreal and its surroundings is so much of the province.

Also, with Montreal Anglo-dominant, wouldn't Anglo-Canada extend farther east in area? Would parts of French-Canada still migrate into eastern/northern parts of Ontario and still manage to get a Franco-Ontarian foothold or presence?

Or another interesting hypothetical would be with a more eastward-centered French Canada (with Quebec city as primate city) that tries to link up with and revitalize the Acadian-Quebec connection (though Acadians will still be small in number relative to Quebecois) as a stronger shared "French Canada" bloc.

[Capsicum]

The more westerly French-Canadian (Franco-Ontarian and Franco-Manitoban, plus others) communities would have it rough with farther distance from their cultural core, but the Acadians might find renewed strength, so it's hard to say how the geography of French Canada would turn out.

[Acajack]

My sense is that as a demographically strapped and stressed group, writing off half or more of their base population in the Montreal area, even if it meant a retrenchment into a more purely francophone region in central and eastern Quebec, would have been a non-starter for the French Canadian community leadership.

It's also worth mentioning that back in the day while Montreal definitely had more anglophones than most cities in Quebec, most cities in the province still had heftier anglo population than they have today. They were all dealing with dominant anglos "in their midst" to some degree.

Since then the anglo share of the population has declined pretty much everywhere, so in some places it's gone to 1-2% from the 6-8% that is once was, whereas in Montreal it's gone maybe from 40-50% to 20-25%.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

I totally agree that Winnipeg should eventually become the capital city of Canada. It makes too much sense. At the very least it could become some sort of co-capital status like in South Africa or The Netherlands.

That or make Ottawa (along with Gatineau) it's own federal district like D.C.

Creating a federal district has been studied in the past but it won't happen for a long time. The reason is that the Quebec portion of the potential district is overwhelmingly federalist and would mean a huge loss of votes in a Quebec referendum on sovereignty. It would have meant that Quebec would have voted "OUI" in 1995.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My sense is that as a demographically strapped and stressed group, writing off half or more of their base population in the Montreal area, even if it meant a retrenchment into a more purely francophone region in central and eastern Quebec, would have been a non-starter for the French Canadian community leadership.

It's also worth mentioning that back in the day while Montreal definitely had more anglophones than most cities in Quebec, most cities in the province still had heftier anglo population than they have today. They were all dealing with dominant anglos "in their midst" to some degree.

Since then the anglo share of the population has declined pretty much everywhere, so in some places it's gone to 1-2% from the 6-8% that is once was, whereas in Montreal it's gone maybe from 40-50% to 20-25%.

It would also hinge on how loyal that half the base was to the Francophone cause at the expense of the cushy privilege of assimilating to the Anglo hegemony in a now more profitable big, capital city. Would it be worth the cost of "selling out" (I know that sounds like such a negative and odd phrasing) their community?

Then again, thinking about it, many Francophones did voluntarily assimilate to Anglo-Canada (or even Anglo-America) not by staying home and accepting Anglo cultural dominance in their hometowns but by physically moving and emigrating to fully English-dominant societies (to Ontario, to New England), for job prospects and better socio-economic status at a cost to their (and their kids') cultural heritage.

If the much bigger Montreal in this hypothetical actually discouraged immigration of Francophones away from Quebec even to the states or the rest of Canada (didn't something like 1 million Quebecois move south to New England and other states?) in favour of staying closer to home in Canada (even if in Anglo Montreal) that would still favour some Francophone identity retention (if they moved to this bigger Montreal, they'd lose some but not all of their Francophone connection which was more likely if they totally left Quebec and went west of the province or south into the states).

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My sense is that as a demographically strapped and stressed group, writing off half or more of their base population in the Montreal area, even if it meant a retrenchment into a more purely francophone region in central and eastern Quebec, would have been a non-starter for the French Canadian community leadership.

It's also worth mentioning that back in the day while Montreal definitely had more anglophones than most cities in Quebec, most cities in the province still had heftier anglo population than they have today. They were all dealing with dominant anglos "in their midst" to some degree.

Since then the anglo share of the population has declined pretty much everywhere, so in some places it's gone to 1-2% from the 6-8% that is once was, whereas in Montreal it's gone maybe from 40-50% to 20-25%.

One way I've noticed that are the street names found in older parts of many towns and cities in Quebec. You'll often find British/Irish names along with things like tree names in English. You may also find business names and service clubs that seem out of place for francophone Quebec but were started by anglophones and later run by francophones who kept the names because of recognition.

Old Noranda in Rouyn-Noranda used to be dominated by anglophones until about the 1960s and quite a few of them moved to Timmins due to mining opportunities. Even the Rouyn part had an anglophone population that made up maybe 10% of the residents. Today Rouyn-Noranda is 97% francophone from what I've read. But I used to always wonder why in Noranda there is dairy bar called "Bar laitier Twin Kiss", a Broadway Pub, Dave Keon Arena, the main streets are Avenue Murdoch and Avenue Carter, a Canadian Corps branch in a building called Remembrance House and more.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

One way I've noticed that are the street names found in older parts of many towns and cities in Quebec. You'll often find British/Irish names along with things like tree names in English. You may also find business names and service clubs that seem out of place for francophone Quebec but were started by anglophones and later run by francophones who kept the names because of recognition.

Old Noranda in Rouyn-Noranda used to be dominated by anglophones until about the 1960s and quite a few of them moved to Timmins due to mining opportunities. Even the Rouyn part had an anglophone population that made up maybe 10% of the residents. Today Rouyn-Noranda is 97% francophone from what I've read. But I used to always wonder why in Noranda there is dairy bar called "Bar laitier Twin Kiss", a Broadway Pub, Dave Keon Arena, the main streets are Avenue Murdoch and Avenue Carter, a Canadian Corps branch in a building called Remembrance House and more.

In most Quebec cities and towns the streets with names of trees in English or names of British royal family people are often the leafy ones with nice old houses.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

If you stretched the "black-white in the US with Anglo-French in Canada" analogy farther with the hypothetical "Montreal as hegemonic minority Anglo-Canadian dominated capital" scenario, you could draw a parallel with the white-dominated Washington DC elites surrounded by the black American majority which came from both free blacks as well as a history of the Great Migration (yeah, DC is no longer black majority but it was for many decades).

But, as you mention, unlike with skin colour, a "hereditary stigma" is unlikely to have stayed with "assimilated French Canadians". It's unlikely that a French Canadian can be told apart from an Anglo one by the average person without language or surname info.

And even so, in 1901 I doubt that a person of francophone origin anywhere in Canada named James Dupont who had gone fully anglo and spoke un-accented English and behaved like an anglo, would have faced much discrimination, if any at all. Due to the Norman Conquest and exchanges over the centuries, many fully British people also had French surnames.

Whereas many people who were not white (but, say, black) tried extremely hard to fit in and adopt the cues of the (white) majority yet it usually was never good enough and they always faced discrimination of some kind.

[lio45]

There's at least one of those that's very easy to imagine: "alternate future with Kingston as capital". You'd essentially have today's Ottawa-Gatineau where Kingston is, and an irrelevant small lumber town where the NCR currently is. Kingston would be 1.5+ million and the downtown would be full of soul-less 1970s government buildings and would've lost most of its historic character.

On the plus side, we may have Toronto-Kingston-Montreal HSR service by now, though. As someone else said, it would have reinforced the linear character of the Corridor to have the capital on the St. Lawrence between Mtl and Tor.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And even so, in 1901 I doubt that a person of francophone origin anywhere in Canada named James Dupont who had gone fully anglo and spoke un-accented English and behaved like an anglo, would have faced much discrimination, if any at all. Due to the Norman Conquest and exchanges over the centuries, many fully British people also had French surnames.

Whereas many people who were not white (but, say, black) tried extremely hard to fit in and adopt the cues of the (white) majority yet it usually was never good enough and they always faced discrimination of some kind.

Plus, as mentioned recently in another thread, the Jacques Lefebvre who wanted for career reasons to "fit in" among our Anglo masters would've pretty quickly become James Smith.

[harls]

If Montreal were to separate from Quebec, Gatineau would see it as an open door to adhere like a pesky lego piece to the foot of Ottawa.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Had Montreal been made capital, it would undoubtedly still be Canada's largest city - and likely overwhelmingly so. An added role as national capital could have given it a further edge over Toronto from an early age, and it would have absorbed more of its industry & population growth since; while the growth that's gone to Ottawa would also have instead gone to Montreal. As such it could quite possibly have a population in excess of 10 million today.

Ottawa meanwhile would be a small regional centre in the 100,000-200,000 range, equivalent of a Peterborough or Sherbrooke; while Toronto might be in the 3 million range. Still the second largest city, but it's growth trajectory in the 1800s and early 1900s would have been slower and then it of course would never have received the boom from Quebec sovereignty.

If this were the case it would be interesting to see if Toronto would have remained a largely industrial city (Ontario would likely remain Canada's industrial heartland) or manage to attract significant commerce as well. Similarly, would Toronto have ended up a "cheap" alternative to Montreal for artists, musicians and other creative types? Would our gritty turn of the century warehouse buildings have been able to remain artist lofts and the like instead of making way for tech startups? That would certainly be an interesting vibe - almost like the 90s never really ended. Of course the historic core would be significantly smaller as well. Or maybe not, it could just be post-war growth that slowed so fewer condos and more parking lots.

Similarly, would we be hearing about how Montreal is increasingly unaffordable to young professionals?

[Chadillaccc]

Winnipeg or Edmonton as National Capital...

Winnipeg for the sake of National Unity and being in the smackdab centre of the country with good transport connections to both East and West.

Edmonton for the sake of National Defence being the farthest major city from the US border, in a fairly easily defensible location from all sides, around 900 kilometers from the US border, and over a thousand kilometers from other boundaries.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Winnipeg or Edmonton as National Capital...

Winnipeg for the sake of National Unity and being in the smackdab centre of the country with good transport connections to both East and West.

.

Winnipeg has good transport connections between east and west?

Road? Not really. But there aren't really good east-west road connections anyway.

Rail? Yes.

Air? Any major city has good air connections these days.

Marine? No, but again... it's a bit moot.

[someone123]

Canada planning for American invasion in 2019 is kind of like people in Idaho collecting guns and cans of beans so they're prepared for when the government comes to get them. If that unlikely scenario happens it won't matter where the capital is.