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  #61  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 9:01 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Who? Name one. Who says higher taxes, all things equal, are better?

People who want higher taxes aren't saying "paying more is better" they're saying "we want to pay x to invest in y".

I've never heard a single person make such an absurd argument. You're mischaracterizing the message, which is that high taxes don't necessarily stifle strong economies.

But even the looniest leftist wouldn't argue that economic growth would be higher if you paid more in taxes and flushed the extra $ down the toilet. They want high taxes to pay for stuff.
Barrack Obama from the 2008 debates with Clinton. He stated, after the moderator mentioned that lowering the Capital Gains taxes actually increases revenue, that its not a matter of revenue, its a matter of fairness. So he doesn't see taxes as a means to fund government. He would actually prefer less money in order to punish some people.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2019, 9:42 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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My clients have access to unlimited capital, and they use it mis-educate people like jtown
Another way for you to simply say FALSE lol

You add zero to any conversation.
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  #63  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2019, 3:13 PM
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uaarkson uaarkson is offline
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Everyone in this thread is missing the point. Until the United States abolishes or severely liberalizes zoning across the board, well-intentioned but market-distorting bills like this will continue to pass as an emergency measure in over saturated markets.

The capitalism vs. socialism debate is useless. Most of the solutions that come out of these rigid camps, regardless of political origin, are like bringing a fire-extinguisher to a flood. Wrong tool, for the wrong problem.

Japan is a high-tax, capitalist, socialist, democratic country that is both wealthy and affordable. Perfect model to follow, if Americans could just get over themselves and live together. It's all about zoning.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2019, 3:19 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Barrack Obama from the 2008 debates with Clinton. He stated, after the moderator mentioned that lowering the Capital Gains taxes actually increases revenue, that its not a matter of revenue, its a matter of fairness. So he doesn't see taxes as a means to fund government. He would actually prefer less money in order to punish some people.
No. Fairness has nothing to do with "punishing people" or wanting to flush money down the toilet. Obviously wealthy people should pay a higher share of taxes than poor people, and the fact that capital gains are taxed lower means the opposite happens, which is nonsensical.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2019, 3:21 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by uaarkson View Post
Japan is a high-tax, capitalist, socialist, democratic country that is both wealthy and affordable. Perfect model to follow, if Americans could just get over themselves and live together. It's all about zoning.
Relative to the U.S., Japan is neither wealthy nor affordable. That would seem to be a horrible model.

Average price of a home for sale in Japan is around 340k, and it's a depreciating asset, and incomes are much lower. Average price of a U.S. home is like 215k and median is under 200k.
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  #66  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2019, 4:01 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Obviously wealthy people should pay a higher share of taxes than poor people
^ That is not an inherent truth. That is an opinion, even if it's practiced in the US.

I for one do not think the wealthy should pay a higher percentage of their income than the poor does. I think it should be a flat tax. And I'm far from alone.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2019, 5:04 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by uaarkson View Post
Everyone in this thread is missing the point. Until the United States abolishes or severely liberalizes zoning across the board, well-intentioned but market-distorting bills like this will continue to pass as an emergency measure in over saturated markets.

The capitalism vs. socialism debate is useless. Most of the solutions that come out of these rigid camps, regardless of political origin, are like bringing a fire-extinguisher to a flood. Wrong tool, for the wrong problem.

Japan is a high-tax, capitalist, socialist, democratic country that is both wealthy and affordable. Perfect model to follow, if Americans could just get over themselves and live together. It's all about zoning.
the benefits of being a smaller mono-culture where everyone is on the same page.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2019, 6:58 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Hell yeah, Justice Clarence Thomas:

https://reason.com/2019/06/21/claren...y-rights-case/

Hopefully we can see rent control return to the SCOTUS this time around. Previous generations of the SCOTUS were way too damned progressive and activist, abandoning the Constitution to satisfy fashionable public mores.

It's time to reassert property rights.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2019, 8:27 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
No. Fairness has nothing to do with "punishing people" or wanting to flush money down the toilet. Obviously wealthy people should pay a higher share of taxes than poor people, and the fact that capital gains are taxed lower means the opposite happens, which is nonsensical.
1. Fairness is subjective.
2. What is the point of taxes? To be punitive against a minority of people or to do the least amount of harm possible while attaining the most revenue possible?
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  #70  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 12:11 AM
badrunner badrunner is offline
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Capital gains being taxed at a lower rate sets up a regressive tax structure. It's not even a flat structure. It's actually punitive to the poor and working class. This isn't even mentioning all the other tax loopholes and shelters that are only available to the wealthy (example: Trump carrying a $1b loss forward for 20 years).

I see the mis-education is going well. This is why capitalists love low information voters (aka "useful idiots").

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  #71  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 12:14 AM
badrunner badrunner is offline
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btw, keep your dirty commie hands off my capital gains tax
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  #72  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 4:04 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Looks like rent regulation is spreading to several cities worldwide. Socialism is becoming a trend:

https://therealdeal.com/national/201...r-rent-freeze/
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  #73  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 6:36 PM
Qubert Qubert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Capital gains being taxed at a lower rate sets up a regressive tax structure. It's not even a flat structure. It's actually punitive to the poor and working class. This isn't even mentioning all the other tax loopholes and shelters that are only available to the wealthy (example: Trump carrying a $1b loss forward for 20 years).

I see the mis-education is going well. This is why capitalists love low information voters (aka "useful idiots").

It's understandable that people feel corporate and capital gains taxes are a sideswipe against the poor...until one realizes they are in fact taxes on the poor.

Let's start with business taxes. For every dollar a business must pay either in corporate income tax or Euro-style VAT there is one dollar that must be accounted for in one of the following ways:

1) Cut costs, which of course usually ends up meaning cut labor.
2) Ratchet down investment, which inevitably also means utilizing less labor.
3) Raise prices, which hurts the masses.

Taxing capital gains chokes off investment, which in turn means there is less business expansion, and thus less need for labor.

Supply side economics is based on a simple premise: Stimulating business activity increases demand for labor while simultaneously lowering prices. Lowering taxes on business and capital gains directs economic surplus towards the expansion of enterprise and thus drives labor need. Without addressing supply side concerns, any wage gains made by legislation or bargining will be quickly be sopped up by inflation.

Even AOC's plan to drive income taxes to 70-80% is still a nod to this basic premise. Raising income taxes will help discourage rent seeking but still keep the functional mechanisms of economic investment in tact. European countries also tax investment income at a lower rate than ordinary income.

There's no path to solving poverty w/o supply side. Period. No supply means everyone's "demands" are just vapor. Can't acquire what's not there. When we move past class resentment on both sides, wither it's contempt for the poor or seething towards the rich can we begin to see real solutions being offered.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 8:08 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
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Yes, I am familiar with trickle down economics. Doesn't change the fact that we have a regressive tax structure. I have a lower effective tax rate than schoolteachers and baristas. If that helps the economy, great. But I somehow doubt that those gains are going to those schoolteachers and baristas, they flow right back up to the top, exactly as designed.
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  #75  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2019, 9:59 PM
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Just a couple quick points as an Upstate NYer - I think the new law's effects up here will be somewhat limited in scope.

- You can only enact rent control in Upstate if you can demonstrate a rental vacancy rate in your community of less than 5%.

- It would be applicable to buildings with six or more units built in or before 1974.

- It's an opt-in measure. City councils have vote for it.

In upstate, only a few communities are likely to qualify and fewer have the political push to enact rent control laws. I could see places like Ithaca and New Paltz doing it, but not many others because the vacancy rates are too high (most cities) or lack political willpower (Saratoga Springs). Even then, because Ithaca and New Paltz are college towns with student renters and therefore a very high annual turnover rate, most of their rental stock wouldn't be relevant to these rules.

https://dailygazette.com/article/201...come-an-option

https://www.cityandstateny.com/artic...literally.html
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  #76  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2019, 11:30 PM
Qubert Qubert is offline
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Yes, I am familiar with trickle down economics. Doesn't change the fact that we have a regressive tax structure. I have a lower effective tax rate than schoolteachers and baristas. If that helps the economy, great. But I somehow doubt that those gains are going to those schoolteachers and baristas, they flow right back up to the top, exactly as designed.
At some point it boils down to this: Is it more important to make things "fair" or is it more important to maintain structures that improve people's lives to the greatest degree.

If I gave you a choice of giving you and some other dude both $10 versus give you $100 and the other guy $1000 which would you choose?

Oh, and BTW, I'm totally down for lowering taxes on schoolteachers and baristas. If it was my choice everyone's first 25K would be tax free Fed, State and Local.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 12:10 AM
badrunner badrunner is offline
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Originally Posted by Qubert View Post
At some point it boils down to this: Is it more important to make things "fair" or is it more important to maintain structures that improve people's lives to the greatest degree.

If I gave you a choice of giving you and some other dude both $10 versus give you $100 and the other guy $1000 which would you choose?
No, it doesn't boil down to that. You can come up with all the bs hypotheticals and false dilemma fallacies that you want. Meanwhile in the real world: Kansas Provides Compelling Evidence of Failure of "Supply-Side" Tax Cuts.

Also, there is no correlation between capital gains tax rate and economic growth.

But by all means, keep carrying my water .
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  #78  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 1:28 PM
Investing In Chicago Investing In Chicago is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
No. Fairness has nothing to do with "punishing people" or wanting to flush money down the toilet. Obviously wealthy people should pay a higher share of taxes than poor people, and the fact that capital gains are taxed lower means the opposite happens, which is nonsensical.
Why is it "obvious" that "wealthy" people (however that is defined) should pay a higher tax rate?

Also, are you suggesting capital gains be taxed the same as income?
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  #79  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 2:04 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago View Post
Why is it "obvious" that "wealthy" people (however that is defined) should pay a higher tax rate?
If we, as a society determine that some things need public funding (and we do), you don't believe it's obvious to tax according to a sliding scale (you know, what we already do, and what even hard core supply side conservatives generally support)?

What would be your specific objection? You believe that someone earning $10 million and someone earning 10k should have the exact same federal rate?

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Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago View Post
Also, are you suggesting capital gains be taxed the same as income?
Yes. Absolutely.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 2:59 PM
Investing In Chicago Investing In Chicago is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
If we, as a society determine that some things need public funding (and we do), you don't believe it's obvious to tax according to a sliding scale (you know, what we already do, and what even hard core supply side conservatives generally support)?

What would be your specific objection? You believe that someone earning $10 million and someone earning 10k should have the exact same federal rate?
I believe a flat tax rate is the most fair approach to taxation.

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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
. Absolutely.
This is absolutely insane - Investment capital is one of the most important drivers of economic growth, and capital gains are an important driver to get people to put money into critical but risky fields in the market. You are effectively taking away any incentive to invest; innovation and cures for diseases are partially possible because of capital gains.
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