Quote:
Originally Posted by ljbuild
NOW HOLD on a minute, I'm not saying that phoenix should not have SKY HARBOR period. Of course every major city needs an airport. However what I am saying is that both places ( downtown and the airport) should have been planned FURTHER APART FROM EACH OTHER. Then the "sky "would be the limit" (hence "sky" ) on what a developer can create Iin either downtown.
|
Your rationale for wanting this utopia "sky's the limit" for downtown Phoenix is somewhat misguided. Part of the problem we are having downtown is the plethora of high-rise zoning where we have rolled out the red carpet for developers but have ended up with less than what we started with. Compare the neighborhoods west of Central--south of Fillmore HR zoning is everywhere--and so are the vacant lots. To the north, HR zoning is comparatively rare, and that neighborhood is thriving compared to the rest of the downtown area.
When you up-zone, yes, you can extract more value out of the land--but that value is only realized after you demolish what's there and build. It is why I'm annoyed so much at that constant state of flux--razing something functional in hopes of something better only works when developers are real and the market is there. Given that so few developers in Phoenix are real, the market is soft, the whole area is overzoned, and ultimately, demolitions are far easier than new builds, we have the problems we have today.
In Tempe, the issue is just starting. Long Wong's has been gone for 2 years and we
might see the Seventh and Mill hotel project ready for occupancy by 2010. Five years for a prime parcel in a functioning downtown? Come on. The Arches is another interesting case--University Square developers lost their court case and
absent a massive buyout that project won't start groundbreaking until 2012. I am not sorry to see the Arches go, but it puts people on the street better than a vacant lot for time immemorial.
None of this was an issue until Tempe spec'd out appropriate building heights--yes, it was going to happen anyway, but it's really not all smiles und sunshine. You should quit thinking high-rise developers are the end-all solution to downtowns' quagmires. It makes you look like a tool.
Quote:
For example, at one time the ARIZONA CARDINALS STADIUM was going to be located on the north bank of tempe town lake or north of the 202 freeway.
BUT concerns over the HEIGHT of the stadium was an issue that had "bothered" the FAA (sky harbor).
In addition, the is even bringing up concerns about the planned 30 story towers of the rest of the centerpoint project.
As a matter of fact someone from this forum had printed "phoenix is in the wrong fight" meaning that phoenix was challenging tempes condo projects and using the FAA as tool to some how put a dent in tempes projects, so that thiers can stick out.
|
The stadium would have worked wonderfully on Mill and Washington but the FAA confirmed issues that were shared among Phoenix, the carriers, and the pilots. This on top of the backhanded lobbying from various interests that didn't help the situation either. Your thinking that the FAA and Sky Harbor are one and the same only confuses the issue. The FAA exists to manage safety, not make one downtown better than an another.
Nor do I really don't think Phoenix gives a flying fuck about Tempe's condo market. What Phoenix is trying to cultivate and what Tempe is today are two vastly different animals. Phoenix cares about their airport
far more than they do about their downtown condos. They care that their tenant carriers won't pack up and leave because the surrounding area has gotten unreasonably tall.
Quote:
But I brought that up to say that once again the airport is the center of debate.
To illustrate a point, look at how far the DENVER international airport, the DALLAS FORT-WORTH AIRPORT, CHICAGO O HARE and even TUCSON'S AIRPORT are away from the local downtowns. Between these airports I have listed the average distance is between 10 and 15 miles with DENVERS being the furthest away at 20 miles.
Thats the way the sky harbor and downtown should of been planned. 15 miles or more apart from Dtwn Phoenix or Tempe
DOWNTOWN WAS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE AIRPORT!!!
so therefore who ever built the airport should have built it FURTHER AWAY.
THAT ALL I'M SAYING
|
The airport is not the center of the debate--there's almost no debate except for a spat here and there with its roots in a historical argument that is basically fixed. Tempe has been bitching about overflight issues for years--the "Northwest 2000" realignment of flight paths was supposed to change that and Phoenix to its credit retrofitted plenty of Tempe houses....many of which have been demolished for new development. Now it's not about overflights and noise, but building heights.
Centerpoint is too tall by about six stories according to Phoenix's generic rules of thumb. They had reasons to complain, especially when one of their carriers had issues with it. But since the FAA said "no hazard,"
which Tempe now requires of any new construction, there's no complaint anymore.
With Marina Heights--you can only look at the before and after diagrams to know that SunCor barely knows what they want for this site. Yes, building heights were chopped for the airport, but the square footage wasn't made up elsewhere. It's all back-of-the-envelope at this stage. But the entire process was an amicable intergovernmental non-issue that was barely covered anywhere. As Tempe ponders its own density and what it considers livable, Phoenix's airport makes decisions easy.
But, yes, maybe the airport itself should have been built further away--but it's such a moot point it's barely worth discussing tho you seem balls-to-the-walls about it like it's gonna happen tomorrow. Denver's is only far away because they were fortunate enough to move it within city limits. It just won't happen in Phoenix.
There are a million historical "should haves" that would have given us two tall, functioning downtowns. The airport, as I said before, is probably last on that list.
Prev
Linear Mode
