Vancouver Downtown Streetcar | Proposed

[Vin]

Currently the downtown core has a very bad east-west transit connect. With West End densifying, it makes a lot of sense to have a higher frequency transit route there. Currently folks have to rely on the low-frequency small shuttle and slow #6 Davie buses.

For the first phase, the streetcar line can be initiated to connect these points:

*Granville Island
*Olympic Village Station
*Olympic Village Central (1st Ave. central boulevard ready for line)
*Main Street Station/Science World
*Stadium Station, including the new Casino entertainment complex <<< new hot spot!
*Yaletown Canada Line Station/community centre (Pacific Blvd central strip ready for line)
*Vancouver House commercial/office complex <<< new hot spot!
*Burrard public swimming pool and gym
*English Bay
*Stanley Park

Makes a lot of sense to have streetcar line going through all these locations doesn't it?

[Klazu]

People are not thinking long-term with the streecar. South side of False Creek (not just Olympic Village) is sure to see huge densification in the decades to come and needs proper transit line through the area.

But I agree that the line needs to extend towards Arbutus and south to make sense. Terminus at Granville Street would make it just a tourist line and would not justify it IMO.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Did you ride it during the Winter Olympics, it was packed. The "train effect" is real. The ROW is there it is stupid not to use it.

Lol well I'm sure a bus would've been packed too!! Olympics was kind of a unique time.

Yes there is a partial ROW but I still dont see the benefit. Who owns that ROW btw? The city?

[jsbertram]

The CoV has hinted - if not outright said - that their next rail-transit priority is the Millennium extension under Broadway to Arbutus (or better yet -UBC).

Only after this is open & running will they consider a Streetcar / LRT / Tram / Trolly on rails somewhere else in the city.

Meanwhile they are preserving the ROWs as best as possible during redevelopments so a future Streetcar / LRT / Tram / Trolley system can be built without needing to take too many private properties.

In relation to this is the proposed Surrey LRT. If it works, then there will be pressure on CoV to do something similar (but only after the Broadway/UBC Millennium extension is running). If the Surrey LRT fails or isn't built at all, then the CoV will back-burner a future Streetcar / LRT / Tram / Trolley system.

The other issue is who will build it and own it and operate it and maintain it? Much like the proposed Surrey LRT, there is the unknown of who will finance the capital construction and who will finance the annual operating costs. Feds and Province may chip in for the construction, but Translink has indicated they want nothing to do with building or operating Streetcar / LRT / Tram / Trolley systems - in Surrey, Vancouver, or any other cities. Translink's rail priority is the future Evergreen, Broadway, UBC and Langley extensions of the current Skytrain system. That would leave the CoV to foot the bill for part of the construction and all of the annual operating costs.

CoV will also have to negotiate with Translink to have fare integration between Translink's Skytrain / buses / Seabus system and CoV's Streetcar. Nothing will kill this new system faster than requiring double-fares or extra-fares when switching to/from this non-Translink streetcar and anything run by Translink.

With the Millennium extension under Broadway not likely to be open before 2025, with a UBC extension unlikely to be running before 2040, I'm not expecting a Vancouver Streetcar to be running before 2050.

[Bdawe]

Let's remember that the private right-of-way only exists west of the Olympic Village. There is no private right of way through downtown to Stanley Park - one would have to be made, at great political expense. Unless an independent right of way is conjured out of the middle of downtown streets, this isn't rapid transit, but simply a bus-on-rails that costs a lot of implement.

So let's talk about what we have - the Arbutus Line and the False Creek Line, which can be potentially connected. I don't really see veering rapid transit from Arbutus tangential to Downtown as an optimal routing, which leaves the never-really-a-transit-line-ex-industrial-spur along False Creek as an orphan that could be put to other uses. Very little of the residential area in question is more than a 10-minute walk from a planned skytrain station or the flood of buses going down Granville.

There is a place in a city for streetcars. They have some advantages, but I'm generally of the opinion that we should strive to squeeze as much utility out of the trolley-bus system before we start making investments in local-stop rail - all door boarding, off-board fare collection, transit-only lanes, and only when the capability of the bus to handle transit volumes economically is reached should we start talking about laying down rail, and when we lay down rail we should really consider whether we're serving a need that would be better met by rapid transit.

The only corridor where that condition exists currently is on Broadway, and that's definitely in the 'should be rapid transit camp'. Perhaps a suitably optimized 20, 3, 8, 6, or 5 could find itself so overflowing that streetcar capacities at local stop trip-types really make sense to invest in. If we build streetcars and then end up significantly cutting frequency to run them economically, who have we really done a favor?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Klazu

People are not thinking long-term with the streetcar. South side of False Creek (not just Olympic Village) is sure to see huge densification in the decades to come and needs proper transit line through the area.

But I agree that the line needs to extend towards Arbutus and south to make sense. Terminus at Granville Street would make it just a tourist line and would not justify it IMO.

No kidding. Hopefully, Vision and CP get their heads out of their rears by 2040.

Budget willing, the Pacific extension could even be its own line - Stadiums, east through the False Creek Flats, then down Commercial/Victoria and along SE Marine until it meets the other line at the Canada Line station.

[WarrenC12]

Is it worth noting that the NPA under Suzanne Anton promised to build the street car (phase 0) if elected in 2011? It was a bit of a last ditch promise (like Kirk's free parking). I think they pegged it at a mere $50M at the time.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Klazu

People are not thinking long-term with the streecar. South side of False Creek (not just Olympic Village) is sure to see huge densification in the decades to come and needs proper transit line through the area.

But I agree that the line needs to extend towards Arbutus and south to make sense. Terminus at Granville Street would make it just a tourist line and would not justify it IMO.

The ROW is already there, so why not extend it at least to Arbutus and Broadway to link up with the M-Line extension.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

The only corridor where that condition exists currently is on Broadway, and that's definitely in the 'should be rapid transit camp'. Perhaps a suitably optimized 20, 3, 8, 6, or 5 could find itself so overflowing that streetcar capacities at local stop trip-types really make sense to invest in. If we build streetcars and then end up significantly cutting frequency to run them economically, who have we really done a favor?

Good point about frequency. Then again, with the buses taking 20 minutes to show up, I doubt they'll need to cut anything.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Let's remember that the private right-of-way only exists west of the Olympic Village. There is no private right of way through downtown to Stanley Park - one would have to be made, at great political expense. Unless an independent right of way is conjured out of the middle of downtown streets, this isn't rapid transit, but simply a bus-on-rails that costs a lot of implement.

It's worth noting that the street system of Coal Harbour was designed to accommodate a future streetcar, both on street (Cordova and then West Hastings) and off-street along the north side of Georgia. The road geometry was designed to accommodate the turning radii of surface-running streetcars and the viaduct structures were designed to take their weight. So there's been more work and thought and planning put into this than may be common knowledge. It's also never been, to the best of my recollection, put forward as a form of rapid transit. Instead, it's a high capacity surface transit line that connects a series of major trip generators and intersects with rapid transit, all on low-congestion streets or off-street rights of way.

With all of that said, I overwhelmingly hope that effort and capital are put into the Broadway Subway SkyTrain line, ideally all the way to UBC. We can always build the streetcar when resources are available and it won't serve as a catalyst for growth, but rather a tool for mode-shift to transit.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is it worth noting that the NPA under Suzanne Anton promised to build the street car (phase 0) if elected in 2011? It was a bit of a last ditch promise (like Kirk's free parking). I think they pegged it at a mere $50M at the time.

If Vision leave the viaducts alone, the incoming NPA would have plenty of money for the streetcar project.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Klazu

People are not thinking long-term with the streecar. South side of False Creek (not just Olympic Village) is sure to see huge densification in the decades to come and needs proper transit line through the area.

But I agree that the line needs to extend towards Arbutus and south to make sense. Terminus at Granville Street would make it just a tourist line and would not justify it IMO.

Agreed. That south side of False Creek and OV seems to be reaching a "European density," ripe for a streetcar or other rail transit. But as you say, it needs to go to Arbutus for a future connection to make it a practical part of the transit infrastructure.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Vin

If Vision leave the viaducts alone, the incoming NPA would have plenty of money for the streetcar project.

Nope.. it would all be wasted on free parking on Sundays.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Vin

If Vision leave the viaducts alone, the incoming NPA would have plenty of money for the streetcar project.

That's assuming the CoV actually has the money, which I suspect is not the case. They're going to have to do into debt to demolish the viaducts.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

Ooh I remember reading about that somewhere. I think it was sold to Edmonton... I wondered if there's a picture anywhere...

EDIT: Found it!





The Edmonton Radial Railway Society owns it now and operates it as part of their service on the High Level Bridge:

"This six-axle high performance car was built in 1970 as a prototype LRT car for the German city of Hannover by Siemens/Düwag and as such is a street running version of Edmonton's U2 light rail cars. After running until 1975 it was acquired by the B.C. Government of the day to be used as a demonstration car for a light rail system being proposed at that time for Vancouver. However, the different "Sky Train" technology was adopted and the car actually sat unused on its shipping cradle for almost twelve years. Purchased by the Society in late 1987, it arrived in early 1988 and ran under power briefly at Fort Edmonton Park in 1989. It was stored for years on LRT tracks after being repainted and overhauled electrically and mechanically. The car is in virtually as new condition and entered service on the High Level Bridge line in 2005. Because of its modern design and large passenger capacity it is mainly used as a back-up car during busy periods."

Originally Posted by lightrail

Here's the ex-Vancouver LRV - Hanover 601 - in operation on the Edmonton Radial Railway's High Level Bridge Line connecting Jasper Avenue to Old Scona.

Looking very modern. 601 was the prototype for the modern LRVs running in Edmonton and Calgary.


A few years ago it was taken for a run on the LRT line, placed between in-services trains and causing quite a few heads to turn as it passed through station.

Found these pics...


http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/d...n-progress-320


http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/d...n-progress-256


http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/d...n-progress-303

[fredinno]

with everyone hating on LRT, what about the possibility of BRT on the West End?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by fredinno

with everyone hating on LRT, what about the possibility of BRT on the West End?

I think traffic prevents BRT on the West End. That and space (no room for a dedicated bus lane).

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think traffic prevents BRT on the West End. That and space (no room for a dedicated bus lane).

you could take a lane and have no parking on Robson/Denman/Davie

Though I suspect that the best plan might be oriented towards absolutely reducing the number car trips in the West End in the first place to bring up bus speeds. Might speed things up to move the bus route to the median lanes and have passengers board light rail-style.

To keep this on topic, I one time calculated that the 5 & 6 move significantly more people per km than, say, the Portland Streetcar

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think traffic prevents BRT on the West End. That and space (no room for a dedicated bus lane).

That's the one advantage of light rail in this case: BRT runs at-grade or elevated, RRT runs elevated or underground, but LRT can do all three depending on the situation.

In this case, underground in the downtown core, BUT at-grade through Arbutus, False Creek and Olympic Village (possibly along Quebec through Creekside). SkyTrain'd need a dedicated tunnel all the way, which is completely unnecessary with a separate ROW and low traffic.

[WarrenC12]

I don't see any realistic future where the Vancouver streetcar runs anywhere other than at-grade.