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Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 6:53 AM
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Fredinno's Master Plan 2050-2

Let's try to avoid the toxic mess of last time. And yes, it is digital this time.

I tried to be more realistic. Hopefully. Criticism is encouraged. Remember, however, that it is my map.

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  #2  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 7:11 AM
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It's a 'High Growth' Assumption, BTW.
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  #3  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 8:13 AM
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Glad to see you back at it full force. There is a lot of stuff and this map and after looking at it for 20 min I still feel I likely missed something.

I will try to stick to what I know best: the North Shore

Developments
  • Cypress Heights: You may still see development yet, but not above the 1200m development height restriction.
  • Grouse Heights: It is steep already at the top edge of development in the Montroyal area. Think of the infamed Skyline Dr for longboarding. Going past this is highly unlikely and would eat into many many local trails (Baden Powel, BCMC, Skyline, Powerline Trails).
  • Seymour Heights: This highly litigious parcel under ownership by CMHC has been the topic of heavy debate between the community and the landowner for many many years. Problems continue to arise even to this day. It is possible this land gets developed but also highly unlikely.
  • The Indian Arm Development Expansion: Could be possible. Would have to meet the conditions of the following bylaw.

Transportation
  • The Railway T-Intersection at the south end of the Second Narrows Bridge: The railway going over the bridge doesn't have a connection to CP's line going from downtown to Port Coquitlam. It actually comes right out of a tunnel that connects to the Grandview cut. If you were to make this work you might have to do something similar to what is done in Yoho National Park with the twin tunnels (build a Right-Right-Right circular tunnel). Not impossible but very impractical.
  • Dollarton Seabus: This doesn't make a lot of sense since that is Cates Park and the other side is just houses. Would make more sense to connect Deep Cove to Port Moody/Coquitlam.
  • Eight Laning Hwy 1 from 2nd Narrows to Taylor Way: Ambitious. I don't think the cross sectional width from Westview to Capilano Road would be able to support such an increase? Right now Mountain Hwy to 2nd Narrows is a bottleneck and really should be a cut and cover 8 lane highway. Not going to happen unfortunately, at least not this time round.
  • Anvil Island Bridge: +1
  • Lonsdale Gondola: I would need convincing. Also, going up the 29th hill would be silly, better to terminate it at Harry Jerome, then have an East West Line starting at Grouse Mountain, past Cap Suspension Bridge, Edgemont Village, Delbrook Community Center, Westview, Harry Jerome, over the highway to Lynn Valley Road and continue it up Lynn Valley Road, up Mountain Highway and then terminate it at the Mountain Biking parking lot
  • Jericho Seabus: I think you were aiming for Dundrave, but you went a little bit too far West. It's an 11km Ferry Ride and could take about 30 min roughly. Seabus is already one of the most expensive things Translink uses. For every Seabus trip they run, they could run 20 full length 240 bus trips. This is also part of their motivation to have the buses as a one zone pass to actually decrease Seabus usage in favour of buses.
  • Inlet Express Commuter Rail: To get any ridership on this, it needs to be competitive against other modes. Does it get you from Waterfront to Lonsdale Quay faster than the Seabus? Horseshoe Bay faster than the 257? Phibbs faster than the 210? The one advantage it may have is Phibbs to Park Royal - I don't see the advantages elsewhere.

Also, the creek watershed idea in Coquitlam is interesting. I don't have the background knowledge though to comment on feasibility.
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  #4  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 9:22 AM
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fredinno fredinno is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waves View Post
Glad to see you back at it full force. There is a lot of stuff and this map and after looking at it for 20 min I still feel I likely missed something.

I will try to stick to what I know best: the North Shore

Developments
  • Cypress Heights: You may still see development yet, but not above the 1200m development height restriction.
  • Grouse Heights: It is steep already at the top edge of development in the Montroyal area. Think of the infamed Skyline Dr for longboarding. Going past this is highly unlikely and would eat into many many local trails (Baden Powel, BCMC, Skyline, Powerline Trails).
  • Seymour Heights: This highly litigious parcel under ownership by CMHC has been the topic of heavy debate between the community and the landowner for many many years. Problems continue to arise even to this day. It is possible this land gets developed but also highly unlikely.
  • The Indian Arm Development Expansion: Could be possible. Would have to meet the conditions of the following bylaw.

Transportation
  • The Railway T-Intersection at the south end of the Second Narrows Bridge: The railway going over the bridge doesn't have a connection to CP's line going from downtown to Port Coquitlam. It actually comes right out of a tunnel that connects to the Grandview cut. If you were to make this work you might have to do something similar to what is done in Yoho National Park with the twin tunnels (build a Right-Right-Right circular tunnel). Not impossible but very impractical.
  • Dollarton Seabus: This doesn't make a lot of sense since that is Cates Park and the other side is just houses. Would make more sense to connect Deep Cove to Port Moody/Coquitlam.
  • Eight Laning Hwy 1 from 2nd Narrows to Taylor Way: Ambitious. I don't think the cross sectional width from Westview to Capilano Road would be able to support such an increase? Right now Mountain Hwy to 2nd Narrows is a bottleneck and really should be a cut and cover 8 lane highway. Not going to happen unfortunately, at least not this time round.
  • Anvil Island Bridge: +1
  • Lonsdale Gondola: I would need convincing. Also, going up the 29th hill would be silly, better to terminate it at Harry Jerome, then have an East West Line starting at Grouse Mountain, past Cap Suspension Bridge, Edgemont Village, Delbrook Community Center, Westview, Harry Jerome, over the highway to Lynn Valley Road and continue it up Lynn Valley Road, up Mountain Highway and then terminate it at the Mountain Biking parking lot
  • Jericho Seabus: I think you were aiming for Dundrave, but you went a little bit too far West. It's an 11km Ferry Ride and could take about 30 min roughly. Seabus is already one of the most expensive things Translink uses. For every Seabus trip they run, they could run 20 full length 240 bus trips. This is also part of their motivation to have the buses as a one zone pass to actually decrease Seabus usage in favour of buses.
  • Inlet Express Commuter Rail: To get any ridership on this, it needs to be competitive against other modes. Does it get you from Waterfront to Lonsdale Quay faster than the Seabus? Horseshoe Bay faster than the 257? Phibbs faster than the 210? The one advantage it may have is Phibbs to Park Royal - I don't see the advantages elsewhere.

Also, the creek watershed idea in Coquitlam is interesting. I don't have the background knowledge though to comment on feasibility.
Thanks for the feedback. It's hard to research most of this sort of thing- I'm used to alternate history, where all the information is a few searches and book recommendations away. Research for this is comparatively difficult- and I left months ago.

So a lot is going to be inaccurate.

Developments:
Cypress Heights:
I remember reading about a revisal on the 1200m height restriction- though I'm assuming no one has really to bothered to remove it yet. The area is pretty bad for development in general, but it's pretty close into the city.

The idea was that the British Properties would gradually continue to expand westwards in the next decades, as they did in the past- though to be fair, the total amount was pretty extreme.

Grouse Heights
Yeah, to be fair, this zone is fairly steep. May be best to incorporate most of the land into the existing Metro Parks system.

Seymour Heights
I'm probably going to assume development takes place by 2050. This is an 'optimistic map' anyways.

Indian Arm
It would have to be, lol. Otherwise, traffic would be insane on the primary road coming in and out of the area.


Railway T-Intersection
I was aware of this issue. The other issue is that there's going to be issues with traffic jams around the bridge, and around Downtown N. Van.

I'd kept that one thing for so long in these transit plans, I was reluctant to finally let go of it for a Upper Levels BRT.

Sigh. Goodbye, sweet North Van Rail line.

Dollarton Seabus
But at that point, you may as well build a bridge from Belcarra to North Van, via #25.

I don't think the people in Belcarra would be happy about a largely isolated community having an expresway jammed right though it- and is there a real reason to?

I think it might be best to get rid of it, and just expand bus service in that direction.

Expanded Upper Levels
I kind of have to put that there, otherwise, that area would become a serious bottleneck due to the Sunshine Coast Link. There's only one practical bridge from the North Shore to the rest of Metro Van- unless you want to use the Seabus or Lion's Gate. :/

Lonsdale Gondola
I take it you're joking?
But seriously though- I really should have made that section Skytrain. I don't know what I was smoking when I made that. The Slopes aren't that high in Lynn Valley.

Jericho Seabus
But can Lion's Gate handle that extra traffic? I doubt it. The Seabus route is probably faster- that overstressed Bridge really doesn't need any more traffic. Unless a parallel bridge is built. But that would go through Stanley Park, which raises more issues.

The North Shore end also still ends in Dundrave. Are we looking at the same map, or am I just being stupid?

No good solution here.

Creek watershed idea in Coquitlam
That existed since the 70s? I think?
Anyways, I only put that there on the map so I don't accidentally expand development into the Water supply zone, which is all reserved public land.
Plus, clean water is important.



In any case, I don't expect myself to stay here too long. The debacle still is stuck in the back of my mind whenever I come here; honestly, I was on the verge of not even finishing this. Hence why it took 2/3s of a year.
I'm glad things can change though.

Last edited by fredinno; Dec 15, 2017 at 9:39 AM.
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  #5  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 10:46 AM
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Developments:
Cypress Heights:
I would be really interested to read about the source you have for the removal of the restriction. My most recent knowledge of the situation has been this article on Cypress Village.
Grouse Heights
I think incorporating this into a larger Metro Vancouver Park would be a really good transition. The area is already used like a park already.

Seymour Heights
Maybe. I can't imagine it without protest (of which I would be one). There are many excellent Mountain Biking trails through the CMHC property. If you were to redevelop the lands, what would be your design?

Railway T-Intersection
Don't let my critisim deter you from this front. It's best to think about it as just needing more detailed thought. Ie. what will be the stations, what will be the time between stations, what is the specific alignment, how will it avoid delays from industrial rail traffic, how will it affect ridership using other modes currently (ie where will it draw it's ridership from and where does it connect people to).

Sometimes fantasies are far fetched but we do them anyways. Think of my cut and cover highway tunnel. No way in a million years will they move the electrical sub station, but I did the design anyways haha.

Dollarton Seabus
I think I disagree with you here. Even just a small ferry could have wonderfully positive economic impacts for Deep Cove and Port Moody. I would even bet that a ferry ride could be faster than a car could ever drive.

If you go farther with this, I would try to pick out where exactly the terminals should be, what anticipated traffic you might see and what size boat it would be (keep in mind a boat the size of the Seabus would be way too massive. Something inbetween that and the False Creek Ferry maybe?

Expanded Upper Levels
I agree with you - just trying to prompt you to look into what the designs might look like.

Lonsdale Gondola
I am only slightly joking haha. I am not against a gondola, but would need convincing it is the right solution, and that it could fit in without looking like a tangled mess of towers and wires. Also, skytrain up Lonsdale engineering wise is way less feasible than a gondola. The slopes are high in some parts of Lynn Valley but not all. The only way I could see a skytrain getting to Lynn Valley would be if it were to come east up 13th/Keith, up Lonsdale, turn right to the south edge of the highway going east, turn left up Lynn Valley Road.

Jericho Seabus
Don't get me wrong, as I commute to UBC I would love this, but I am concerned about cost efficiency? You are very very very close to Dundarave on your map. I think it is just a smidgen to east of where you currently terminate it.


Doing this kind of fantasizing work is definitely time consuming enough to call a hobby. It takes a lot of work to be informed about everything, to iterate through solutions, discover flaws and then redo everything. Don't be dismayed if you don't get it right on the first time through. None of us do, and neither do the politicians which is why we are on here in the first place haha.
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  #6  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 7:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waves View Post
Developments:
Cypress Heights:
I would be really interested to read about the source you have for the removal of the restriction. My most recent knowledge of the situation has been this article on Cypress Village.
Grouse Heights
I think incorporating this into a larger Metro Vancouver Park would be a really good transition. The area is already used like a park already.

Seymour Heights
Maybe. I can't imagine it without protest (of which I would be one). There are many excellent Mountain Biking trails through the CMHC property. If you were to redevelop the lands, what would be your design?

Railway T-Intersection
Don't let my critisim deter you from this front. It's best to think about it as just needing more detailed thought. Ie. what will be the stations, what will be the time between stations, what is the specific alignment, how will it avoid delays from industrial rail traffic, how will it affect ridership using other modes currently (ie where will it draw it's ridership from and where does it connect people to).

Sometimes fantasies are far fetched but we do them anyways. Think of my cut and cover highway tunnel. No way in a million years will they move the electrical sub station, but I did the design anyways haha.

Dollarton Seabus
I think I disagree with you here. Even just a small ferry could have wonderfully positive economic impacts for Deep Cove and Port Moody. I would even bet that a ferry ride could be faster than a car could ever drive.

If you go farther with this, I would try to pick out where exactly the terminals should be, what anticipated traffic you might see and what size boat it would be (keep in mind a boat the size of the Seabus would be way too massive. Something inbetween that and the False Creek Ferry maybe?

Expanded Upper Levels
I agree with you - just trying to prompt you to look into what the designs might look like.

Lonsdale Gondola
I am only slightly joking haha. I am not against a gondola, but would need convincing it is the right solution, and that it could fit in without looking like a tangled mess of towers and wires. Also, skytrain up Lonsdale engineering wise is way less feasible than a gondola. The slopes are high in some parts of Lynn Valley but not all. The only way I could see a skytrain getting to Lynn Valley would be if it were to come east up 13th/Keith, up Lonsdale, turn right to the south edge of the highway going east, turn left up Lynn Valley Road.

Jericho Seabus
Don't get me wrong, as I commute to UBC I would love this, but I am concerned about cost efficiency? You are very very very close to Dundarave on your map. I think it is just a smidgen to east of where you currently terminate it.


Doing this kind of fantasizing work is definitely time consuming enough to call a hobby. It takes a lot of work to be informed about everything, to iterate through solutions, discover flaws and then redo everything. Don't be dismayed if you don't get it right on the first time through. None of us do, and neither do the politicians which is why we are on here in the first place haha.
Ha, no. But seriously, the North Van Rail was always one of the most iffy parts of the map, from the very beginning. As I mentioned earlier, traffic jams near Central N. Van would make the thing no better than BRT at that point.

About Cypress Heights: Yeah, I really have no more information than you at this point. It's like the Langley Salmon River Highlands, or the Maple Ridge Highlands ALR removal proposals- where actually removing the land from conservation status is still being debated.

Lonsdale Gondola: I know some parts of it have some pretty high slopes. Gondolas tend to be pretty slow- and I don't think the grade at N. Van yet justified the Gondola anymore.

Dollarton Seabus: Looking back, I think the original idea was to allow N. Vancouverites to Seabus all the way to SFU- and to allow public transport systems to take a shortcut to Port Moody via rail.

I get what you're thinking, but that would pretty much be a Belcarra-Deep Cove Seabus, just terminating on a different location on the east Side.

Is there a specific street you want the Jericho Seabus to terminate at? You're basically talking about a matter of a few pixels at this point.
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Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 10:45 PM
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Dollarton Seabus: I just think that for the route to be successful it would need to terminate at a "destination" not just a location where you must take a bus to go anywhere useful. In that respect, I don't think that going to Belcarra would really be any better since there isn't really anything there except homes. Going direct to Port Moody would connect you with the Evergreen Line straight from Deep Cove, which is a massive advantage.

Assume proportional time for crossing with distance. Waterfront to Lonsdale = 10min with 2.5min off and 2.5min on loading for 3.1km which means 3.2min/km. But this likely is slow due to boat traffic detours and approach and departure accelerations so we can probably go as high as ~2min/km. For 10.9km this means 25min + 5min loading = 30min. From Deep Cove it would be 1h30min currently. From Phibbs it would be 45min or roughly equivilant to what it is now.

Jericho: See this map I made. Also I think a Ambleside-Kits would be a more practical start and finish points for the same reason as Deep Cove-Port Moody.
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  #8  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2017, 5:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waves View Post
Dollarton Seabus: I just think that for the route to be successful it would need to terminate at a "destination" not just a location where you must take a bus to go anywhere useful. In that respect, I don't think that going to Belcarra would really be any better since there isn't really anything there except homes. Going direct to Port Moody would connect you with the Evergreen Line straight from Deep Cove, which is a massive advantage.

Assume proportional time for crossing with distance. Waterfront to Lonsdale = 10min with 2.5min off and 2.5min on loading for 3.1km which means 3.2min/km. But this likely is slow due to boat traffic detours and approach and departure accelerations so we can probably go as high as ~2min/km. For 10.9km this means 25min + 5min loading = 30min. From Deep Cove it would be 1h30min currently. From Phibbs it would be 45min or roughly equivilant to what it is now.

Jericho: See this map I made. Also I think a Ambleside-Kits would be a more practical start and finish points for the same reason as Deep Cove-Port Moody.
Port Moody also has large commercial ports where slowdown is necessary.
Not to mention the area isn't really dense, nor really a target area for densification.
Also, the original plan had terminus with the West Coast Express, so
I get your point, though. The entire Inner Burrard Seabus is a pretty low-priority item- I wouldn't expect it to make a profit.



The Ambleside-Kits does seem interesting though, esp. as an alternative to the Lion's Gate crossing.
It would connect directly to the Vancouver Loop Line more directly- and take buses out of the crowded Lion's Gate, and it's much closer to the West Van Town Centre at Park Royal.

Seems like a good plan.
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  #9  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2017, 8:35 AM
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I really like the idea of the freeways that would get rid of the horrid truck traffic on regular roads such as HWY#15 &#10.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 3:43 AM
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I've fixed a few things, thanks to your feedback. Sorry for taking so long.

Hopefully I can get some other feedback.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 8:17 PM
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It's still super cluttered. Good draft though.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 11:29 PM
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Pretty good. I recommend just using a simple map overlay that does not include all arterial roads and streets in the region so it is easier to see your recommended changes.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2018, 11:34 PM
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Pretty good. I recommend just using a simple map overlay that does not include all arterial roads and streets in the region so it is easier to see your recommended changes.
Yeah I agree. The map has unnecessary clutter and irrelevant words.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2018, 6:33 PM
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Yeah I agree. The map has unnecessary clutter and irrelevant words.
A lot of it is due to the low image quality due to the image compression.

Plus, I kind of had to add clutter if I was going to addd all the necessary information./=
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