PHILADELPHIA-CAMDEN-WILMINGTON-ATLANTIC CITY-READING | Metro Development Thread

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

I can't really tell anything from that...or even pick out the location of the specific site...

Refresh the page, I edited my post.

[jslice]

Wilmington is big business...I'm sure it outpaces any other area in big business with its population. Funny in-terms of big name employers can probably even compete with the city of Philadelphia.
Chemours (482 on Fortune 500)
Dupont (86 on Fortune 500)
Navient (514)
Astrazeneca (470 on Fortune 500 albeit outside city lines)
Incyte (traded on S&P 500 and one of the most innovative/ fastest growing companies in the world )

Also heavy investment from JP Morgan Chase in Wilmington, Chase is the leader in the card space currently as well as other credit card outposts in Wilmington (BOA, WSFS, Citi, etc.) ...I'm sure i'm leaving off others.

Wilmington is an untapped jewel. A last refuge in the Northeast corridor. It is finally starting to receive the downtown revitalization it well deserves. Outskirts of Wilmington (Trolley Square, Rockford, Dupont Country club area) are absolutely gorgeous but i think the high crime rate in Wilmington has brought down the public perception from outsiders despite the crime being secluded to a few neighborhoods downtown. BPG's residential investment in the downtown area is exactly what it needs to change the perception.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by jslice

Wilmington is big business...I'm sure it outpaces any other area in big business with its population. Funny in-terms of big name employers can probably even compete with the city of Philadelphia.
Chemours (482 on Fortune 500)
Dupont (86 on Fortune 500)
Navient (514)
Astrazeneca (470 on Fortune 500 albeit outside city lines)
Incyte (traded on S&P 500 and one of the most innovative/ fastest growing companies in the world )

Also heavy investment from JP Morgan Chase in Wilmington, Chase is the leader in the card space currently as well as other credit card outposts in Wilmington (BOA, WSFS, Citi, etc.) ...I'm sure i'm leaving off others.

Wilmington is an untapped jewel. A last refuge in the Northeast corridor. It is finally starting to receive the downtown revitalization it well deserves. Outskirts of Wilmington (Trolley Square, Rockford, Dupont Country club area) are absolutely gorgeous but i think the high crime rate in Wilmington has brought down the public perception from outsiders despite the crime being secluded to a few neighborhoods downtown. BPG's residential investment in the downtown area is exactly what it needs to change the perception.

Dupont is outside city lines too. It moved to a Suburban campus on Chestnut run. I think Incyte is also not downtown. Wilmington need to continue transforming to a live/play to stop the outflow of jobs to Suburban campuses. It's doing well in that regard.

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Wilmington need to continue transforming to a live/play to stop the outflow of jobs to Suburban campuses. It's doing well in that regard.

Are you sure about that? I feel like it's doing terrible in that regard.

[jslice]

I think 99.9% of your statements i disagree with. What rock are you living under? Walk from the river to market street. By summer there will be like 300 luxury units added. Stitch house brewery is on its way, additional restaurants...Wilmington has an abundance of theaters...and cultural attractions. It just needs people living downtown!!

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by jslice

I think 99.9% of your statements i disagree with. What rock are you living under? Walk from the river to market street. By summer there will be like 300 luxury units added. Stitch house brewery is on its way, additional restaurants...Wilmington has an abundance of theaters...and cultural attractions. It just needs people living downtown!!

Well let me ask you this, are you seeing any factual increase in population? Or any signs of improvement in that category? Yes PARTS of Wilmington have improved in the "live" category, but I don't see any population increase or anything that people are claiming that this is helping Wilmington with.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by jonesrmj

Well let me ask you this, are you seeing any factual increase in population? Or any signs of improvement in that category? Yes PARTS of Wilmington have improved in the "live" category, but I don't see any population increase or anything that people are claiming that this is helping Wilmington with.

Wilmington's population increased from 70,851 in 2010 to an estimated 71,442 in 2016. .8%. And the percentage increase of wealthier, more upwardly mobile people is surely greater than that. It's just getting going. A lot of these new residential/retail projects are pending or only happened in the last 5 years.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Wilmington's population increased from 70,851 in 2010 to an estimated 71,442 in 2016. .8%. And the percentage increase of wealthier, more upwardly mobile people is surely greater than that. It's just getting going. A lot of these new residential/retail projects are pending or only happened in the last 5 years.

You're really grasping at straws.

Also, 300 "luxury" units is 1 building in Philadelphia.

Most of the big companies are in North Wilmington, i.e. not downtown.

There isn't a single destination restaurant in Downtown Wilmington that I can think of that would attract somebody who wasn't already in Wilmington either after hours or on a weekend. I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

It's improving. Yes. It has about 20 years to go before it looks anything like Baltimore or Providence.

[Mr Saturn64]

You know, I haven't actually been to Wilmington except on the highway or the train down south, so I haven't actually set foot in it, but I can tell you from an outsider's perspective that Wilmington's reputation is vastly more negative than positive. I know that on a national level we complain about Philly having a bad reputation, but in the Delaware Valley, there's no denying it. Wilmington isn't popular. Honestly, reputation wise, I think it's closer to Camden than Philly. At the moment, it seems like Wilmington is known foremost as a major crime town. While I realize that there may not be as much truth to that as it may seem, and that's just public perception, I am certain that public perception does determine whether or not people move to - for residential life or jobs. I am also certain that Wilmington is improving. I don't know if it is in the crime aspect, but I do see the foundation for a better city being laid.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

You're really grasping at straws.

Also, 300 "luxury" units is 1 building in Philadelphia.

Most of the big companies are in North Wilmington, i.e. not downtown.

There isn't a single destination restaurant in Downtown Wilmington that I can think of that would attract somebody who wasn't already in Wilmington either after hours or on a weekend. I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

It's improving. Yes. It has about 20 years to go before it looks anything like Baltimore or Providence.

Uh, I didn't say otherwise whatsoever. I said the first step to revitalization in Wilmington is the increased residential and retail/restaurants that is happening, that it's going to take a long time, and that tall buildings/skyscrapers will follow but aren't happening anytime soon. My point was that it's improving and that jonesrmj should be happy with the improvements the city is starting to see and not pine for commercial skyscrapers that can't be built there right now because they would sit empty.

[Nomad9]

Originally Posted by Mr Saturn64

You know, I haven't actually been to Wilmington except on the highway or the train down south, so I haven't actually set foot in it, but I can tell you from an outsider's perspective that Wilmington's reputation is vastly more negative than positive. I know that on a national level we complain about Philly having a bad reputation, but in the Delaware Valley, there's no denying it. Wilmington isn't popular. Honestly, reputation wise, I think it's closer to Camden than Philly. At the moment, it seems like Wilmington is known foremost as a major crime town. While I realize that there may not be as much truth to that as it may seem, and that's just public perception, I am certain that public perception does determine whether or not people move to - for residential life or jobs. I am also certain that Wilmington is improving. I don't know if it is in the crime aspect, but I do see the foundation for a better city being laid.

I’m not necessarily doubting the perspective, but that perspective of Wilmington being some crime-ridden hell hole is misguided. One big problem is that Wilmington has really small city limits and all (or almost all) of the really bad neighborhoods are within those limits. That jacks up the crime rate to an artificially high rate. If the city limits included more of Wilmington’s suburban surroundings (say more like 200k), like other cities do, I’m guessing the crime rate would be higher than average but nothing special—certainly not murder town.

Unfortunately that explanation doesn’t really stick with people. It’s like my Fox News-watching dad who thinks Chicago is basically Iraq without realizing that high crime areas are usually narrowly confined to certain neighborhoods.

Now, that said, those bad neighborhoods in Wilmington are really bad. The only way to change the perception is to treat the problem or slowly gentrify it away. Obviously the former is far more desirable, but I’m no crime/poverty expert.

Regarding downtown employers: yes, lots of the biggies are out of downtown, but there are still lots of white collar or other office jobs downtown (500+ highly paid corporate lawyers and their staff, State government, banks, etc.), so we just need more of them to live in and around downtown—at least in city limits. Not in Philly, Greenville, Chads Ford, Hockessin, etc. And while Incyte isn’t downtown, it’s only a mile or so away and easy walking or biking distance from Trolley and Forty Acres.

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Uh, I didn't say otherwise whatsoever. I said the first step to revitalization in Wilmington is the increased residential and retail/restaurants that is happening, that it's going to take a long time, and that tall buildings/skyscrapers will follow but aren't happening anytime soon. My point was that it's improving and that jonesrmj should be happy with the improvements the city is starting to see and not pine for commercial skyscrapers that can't be built there right now because they would sit empty.

Ok, did you not read the rest of what I said? Yes I've mentioned a billion times that I would love to see skyscraper development, and I truly do understand that skyscrapers can't just appear out of thin air, but I more importantly said that there are WAY TOO MANY APARTMENTS (not condos, apartments) that are being built. Once again, I've said for the billionth time, I am not saying don't build any apartments, but do CONDOS and more mixed use space. Why would they build more apartments when you can't even own the place? I'm sure not everyone who wants to live here is going to want to pay rent. Also, they should come up with better designs for the buildings (The only good looking apartment project here in my opinion is the Capano apartments on the riverfront) because most of them in my opinion look bad. I'll say this one more time, I'm okay with seeing low-rise apartments, but come up with better designs, and balance the apartments with condos, offices, mixed-use, etc and save some of the downtow lots for skyscrapers when they become reality.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by jonesrmj

Ok, did you not read the rest of what I said? Yes I've mentioned a billion times that I would love to see skyscraper development, and I truly do understand that skyscrapers can't just appear out of thin air, but I more importantly said that there are WAY TOO MANY APARTMENTS (not condos, apartments) that are being built. Once again, I've said for the billionth time, I am not saying don't build any apartments, but do CONDOS and more mixed use space. Why would they build more apartments when you can't even own the place? I'm sure not everyone who wants to live here is going to want to pay rent. Also, they should come up with better designs for the buildings (The only good looking apartment project here in my opinion is the Capano apartments on the riverfront) because most of them in my opinion look bad. I'll say this one more time, I'm okay with seeing low-rise apartments, but come up with better designs, and balance the apartments with condos, offices, mixed-use, etc and save some of the downtow lots for skyscrapers when they become reality.

I would also like to see more Condos in Wilmington, but I don't think the requisite demand for them exists either yet. It took the Justison Landing condos on the Riverfront 10 years to sell out. Perhaps some new ones on or near Market Street - or Trolley Square or whatever - would do better. And I've actually been thinking along the lines of you and hoping to see some, but I have to think that Buccini Pollin and their new competition have accurately gauged the market.

The apartments alone we have seen recently are the first nice apartments in Wilmington I'm aware of. And still not THAT nice. I had a second place I rented in the rental side of Justison Landing when I worked on the Riverfront for a year. They were ok. Harlan Flats is nicer, and the new ones going up look nicer still. Perhaps if these are doing well and the retail and restaurant scene is improving, developers will test the waters again and see if there are upwardly mobile residents that want to settle in and stay in downtown more longterm.

[jslice]

The Chicago analogy is very apt. Generally walking around Chicago you'd feel more safe than you would walking around Philadelphia (I can attest as I've lived in both cities). People read about the violence in Wilmington and make the same generalizations.

"Wilmington, on the banks of the Delaware River, is the leading American City of the Future in the Micro City classification. It was the source city for 71 FDI projects between 2012 and 2016, and has the highest number of outward FDI projects per 100,000 people of all locations studied, helping it top the ranking for Micro Cities in the Economic Potential category. The city has seven ports within 100 kilometres, and connections to 30 international destinations from Philadelphia International Airport, just over 30 kilometres from the city."
https://www.fdiintelligence.com/Loca...triumphs-again

[Frontst17]

The point is it doesn’t matter whether you want skyscrapers instead of apartments unfortunately. Philly wasn’t sniffing any high rises until thousands of rehabs were done and apartments were built. Once people wanted to live there it became a place to move businesses build skyscrapers and in turn denser apartment projects. That’s on a city of massive scale. Wilmington will never be Baltimore or Providence but it doesn’t have to be. All these apartments are a GREAT sign of things to come as ive lived in the area my whole life and never seen such investment in Wilmington as little as it seems. Good things are coming trust the process brotha! It’s going to take TIME.

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by jslice

The Chicago analogy is very apt. Generally walking around Chicago you'd feel more safe than you would walking around Philadelphia (I can attest as I've lived in both cities). People read about the violence in Wilmington and make the same generalizations.

"Wilmington, on the banks of the Delaware River, is the leading American City of the Future in the Micro City classification. It was the source city for 71 FDI projects between 2012 and 2016, and has the highest number of outward FDI projects per 100,000 people of all locations studied, helping it top the ranking for Micro Cities in the Economic Potential category. The city has seven ports within 100 kilometres, and connections to 30 international destinations from Philadelphia International Airport, just over 30 kilometres from the city."
https://www.fdiintelligence.com/Loca...triumphs-again

When I personally see Wilmington, The Downtown area (and especially the Riverfront) feel safe to me. It's just that most of the crime and where I don't feel safe is when you cross the Christina River towards Vandever Avenue and east of I-95 towards Union Street (This is a lot like Chicago in the sense that when I went last summer, downtown and the whole park area (forgot what its called) feel safe and have less crime, it's just that there are some outskirt areas that are crime hotspots). Those general areas don't feel safe and are also where most (if not all) the crime happens, particular in the Vandever Avenue area. I think that if the city put some more focus on those areas, that could help lower crime rates more than just revitalizing downtown and Market Street (Not saying I don't appreciate what they did with Market Street, because I like what they are doing to give Wilmington more of an alive downtown. I think we just need to put more focus than we currently do in the crime hotspots).

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Wilmington will never be Baltimore or Providence...

Why do people keep mentioning Providence, RI as a big city? Yes it has a much higher population than Wilmington and like three buildings taller than Wilmington's tallest, but arguably, Wilmington has a bigger skyline and is having a lot more development that Providence. Providence's tallest building at 428 feet is vacant, A plan for three skyscrapers failed, and while some small development is happening, it's nothing compared to the amount Wilmington has. And considering that at one point, Wilmington had over 100k of a population back then, I wouldn't be surprised if Wilmington surpasses Providence sometime in the future.

[jslice]

Looks like some work is happening at 405 N Market street, the old site of the Sports Connection. Found this online but anyone have any additional info:
http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/405-N...on-DE/9050354/

[summersm343]

Camden’s waterfront baseball stadium will be demolished

Read more here:
https://philly.curbed.com/2017/12/8/...ium-demolition

[summersm343]

Why SAP Will Open a New Tech Innovation Lab in Delco

Read more at http://www.phillymag.com/business/20...boYTtQ5kFWy.99

[Mr Saturn64]

Originally Posted by Nomad9

I’m not necessarily doubting the perspective, but that perspective of Wilmington being some crime-ridden hell hole is misguided. One big problem is that Wilmington has really small city limits and all (or almost all) of the really bad neighborhoods are within those limits. That jacks up the crime rate to an artificially high rate. If the city limits included more of Wilmington’s suburban surroundings (say more like 200k), like other cities do, I’m guessing the crime rate would be higher than average but nothing special—certainly not murder town.

Unfortunately that explanation doesn’t really stick with people. It’s like my Fox News-watching dad who thinks Chicago is basically Iraq without realizing that high crime areas are usually narrowly confined to certain neighborhoods.

Now, that said, those bad neighborhoods in Wilmington are really bad. The only way to change the perception is to treat the problem or slowly gentrify it away. Obviously the former is far more desirable, but I’m no crime/poverty expert.

I find your arguments totally believable. But the reputation, misguided or not, definitely affects how Wilmington develops, and how people move there. I googled Wilmington, DE and one of the first things I found (not under news, under regular Google) was "Wilmington, Delaware leads U.S in teen shootings." (USA Today) It's like that conversation we were having about PATCO in Camden recently. Regardless of reality, it's extremely difficult to change reputation. It's like that Ben Franklin quote; "Glass, China, and reputation are easily cracked and never well mended."

Originally Posted by summersm343

Camden’s waterfront baseball stadium will be demolished

Read more here:
https://philly.curbed.com/2017/12/8/...ium-demolition

Damn.