CHICAGO | General Developments

[cbotnyse]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

oh, so railing against all those pesky suburbanites who wish to utilize "his" downtown isn't elitist? you and i must own two entirely different dictionaries.

well I have no problem with suburbanites, so I dont agree with that, but his point was not having something so gimikey right on the river.

and yet none of those other fine establishments were interested in ponying up the rent money to lease the retail space overlooking the river. DLR was, and being that we live in a free-market, they are the ones who get the privilege to operate a bar and restaurant overlooking the river at that location.

free market indeed. I still think a Portillios would be the best fit. There is no better low priced food on the planet.

[honte]

Originally Posted by Taft

I *hate* the word elitist. ...

Well said, Taft!

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

you also can make a lot of enemies in that process when the selfish motivations are as transparent as they are in this case. i'm all for making DLR's move into MC as sensitive as possible while still working with their desire for outdoor dining, but that's not what the people behind this landmark petition seek, they only wish to put up any and every road block they can think of to keep the DLR riff-raff away from "their" precious marina city complex. i simply cannot ally myself with such grumpy old snobs, even if some of our goals may overlap.

Sure, I understand your point. The "camel" I was referring to is the city - Alderman and the Commission. With a substantial number of people voicing concerns about landmarking, whatever their reason, it might be enough to convince the Alderman to pursue it. It also might be enough to convince the Commission that there is enough support to make for smooth sailing.

At this point, the City would approach you, and it of course would not be a DLR issue at that point. Your choice would be landmark or not. Hopefully a majority would go for it, for all of the different reasons this makes sense (greedy people who just want the tax break, NIMBY types, old fuddy duddies, concerned citizens like yourself, and so on).

So, my interest is perked on this issue for these reasons. People have been suggesting Marina City as a landmark for decades, and I have good reason to believe the Commission would consider it very rapidly if it were clear that it would have suitable owner consent.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by honte

and I have good reason to believe the Commission would consider it very rapidly if it were clear that it would have suitable owner consent.

there will never be owner consent for landmarking of MC, because there are too many different "owners" of MC. the condo association strictly owns just the residential floors in the two towers. the parking levels, the hotel, the theater, the other commercial spaces are all owned by other entities that are entirely independent of the marina towers condo association. with the often competing interests between these entities, you will never build a consensus amongst the "owners" of the marina city complex to apply for landmark status of the complex. add to that a written agreement that MTCA made with the commercial property owner back in the financially-strapped 90s about never supporting a landmarking of MC, and you have a situation where owner endorsement of landmarking the property is simply not going to happen.

if marina city is to ever be landmarked (as i feel it should), the designation will have to be imposed from the outside by the government.

Originally Posted by cbotnyse

free market indeed. I still think a Portillios would be the best fit. There is no better low priced food on the planet.

i won't argue with that. i LOVE portillo's, though it's probably a good thing that i have to walk 6 blocks to get some of their beef when the craving strikes

[aic4ever]

Originally Posted by cbotnyse

economical standpoint? bullshit. who said this building will be populated with lower middle class? This will house condos, a hotel and offices for CBS, all of which will not be "lower middle class." And the CTA hub will be express to the airports, meaning it will be full of tourists and business travelers. Forgive me for thinking we can do better than throwing low end fast food joints in the place.

You're digging your own grave here. Who do you think the vast majority of that hotel's workers will be made up of? Maids, bellhops, desk people, maintenance workers. I don't care if they dump the most expensive hotel on the planet in there, those people will be paid no more than their position warrants.

Offices for CBS? So all of the secretaries and (possibly unpaid) interns and mid level accounting people are going to be carrying the fine dining establishments you would somehow prefer to see in this place? The money flows both ways. A high end restaurant going in there needs to know it's going into a place where it can draw the money crowd it needs all the time. If I'm a money guy, I'm sorry but I'm going to Italian Village or the Grillroom or Rhapsody or Russian Tea Time or Lloyds, specifically because it's NOT in a big megaplex like Block 37. I'm trying to get away from a hord of people. Can a higher end restaurant work in there? Of course. But you're not going to be carrying the day with all high end stuff in a place where you're moving that many people through there on a daily basis. Aside from the majority of people not affording it monetarily, the people who can afford the cost, your business travelers for instance, more than likely won't be able to afford the time. When I've had to travel for work, I've barely stopped moving from the time I leave to the time I get home, let alone sit down for a meal that takes over an hour.

From a developer's standpoint, there is no better to be done than putting a McDonald's or a Subway or a Burger King or one of the Yum brands in there, because those are the tenants that are going to carry the strongest national credit possible, meaning they are all but guaranteed to be in their 15 year lease for every one of those 15 years. Similarly, those chains are going to be attracted to the spot because of the sheer mass of people moving through therem, so they're going to be willing to pay the per square foot premium the developer needs/wants out of the food service areas.

To take it a step further, higher end restaurants are typically Dinner destinations. Save for weekends, the Loop basically shuts down completely after 6:00. The aforementioned higher end restaurants are the exception, along with Berghoff and the places up and down Wabash that have bars in them, and really don't draw great business for dinner time save for the weekend anyway.

So yes, it is economics, every step of the way.

[budman]

I may be a hypocrite, but I am certainly neither elitist nor anti-suburbanite. But like it or not, it is usually (USUALLY) suburbanites who frequent places with the cartoonish signage like DLR, Planet Hollywood, Rain Forest Cafe, etc., so I was merely describing the likely patrons at DLR. Once again, it is better than nothing. And, once again, I will probably go there myself (there is the hypocrite). And, once again one more time, I think we would be better served with a more traditional type of Chicago style venue, and I wouldnt even object if a few suburbanites stopped by to drop some cash and maybe even their pants after a few too many beers. If Daley asked me to advise him on what should go in the video, you are right, I would steer the camera away from DLR. And if you want the olympics here, so would you.
Let's not take this too seriously folks, it is no sin to find Dicks Last Resort to be tacky, or to believe that there are better spots for it than along the river. If I hurt anyone's feelings with my opinion, I apologize.

[honte]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

there will never be owner consent for landmarking of MC, because there are too many different "owners" of MC. the condo association strictly owns just the residential floors in the two towers. the parking levels, the hotel, the theater, the other commercial spaces are all owned by other entities that are entirely independent of the marina towers condo association. with the often competing interests between these entities, you will never build a consensus amongst the "owners" of the marina city complex to apply for landmark status of the complex. add to that a written agreement that MTCA made with the commercial property owner back in the financially-strapped 90s about never supporting a landmarking of MC, and you have a situation where owner endorsement of landmarking the property is simply not going to happen.

if marina city is to ever be landmarked (as i feel it should), the designation will have to be imposed from the outside by the government.

Thanks for that info, very interesting. I was not aware of the agreement, which is a shame.

In any case, you are right, in Chicago we do not need owner consent to landmark buildings. It does make things more complex and cumbersome though to act without it.

I still do believe that if a substantial number of owners were supportive, even if the condo board did not endorse the plan in the form of a motion, it would help the cause.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by honte

I still do believe that if a substantial number of owners were supportive, even if the condo board did not endorse the plan in the form of a motion, it would help the cause.

of course individual unit owners endorsing landmark designation would help the cause, but i'm not going to join up with the anti-fun, knocking-on-heaven's-door, elitist, snob, douche bags who seek landmarking only as a last ditch effort to block the dreaded DLR from setting up shop in "their" complex. those people don't give two rat shits about landmarking MC, they only care about keeping DLR out, and for that, i am diametrically opposed to them and everything they stand for. call me petty and small, but motivations matter to me.

[cbotnyse]

Originally Posted by aic4ever

You're digging your own grave here. Who do you think the vast majority of that hotel's workers will be made up of? Maids, bellhops, desk people, maintenance workers. I don't care if they dump the most expensive hotel on the planet in there, those people will be paid no more than their position warrants.

digging my own grave? what the hell are you talking about?

North Michigan Ave has the highest concentration of upscale condos and hotels, so why aren't there tons of fast food places surrounding them to feed all of their poor workers? your reasoning makes no sense.

To take it a step further, higher end restaurants are typically Dinner destinations. Save for weekends, the Loop basically shuts down completely after 6:00.

so you want to encourage that by putting in fast food that close at 6pm? GMAFB

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

Again, not sure if I should post or just link to it. This is my second reference to their blog and I don't want to come across as a YoChicago hack because I hate Joe Zekas; but, did anyone else catch this seven-unit building in Pilsen? It's impressive especially in light of the architect Studio D's typical modus operandi.

[honte]

Originally Posted by Ch.G, Ch.G

Again, not sure if I should post or just link to it. This is my second reference to their blog and I don't want to come across as a YoChicago hack because I hate Joe Zekas; but, did anyone else catch this seven-unit building in Pilsen? It's impressive especially in light of the architect Studio D's typical modus operandi.

Thanks for the link. I am 100% ok with developments like this. The architecture fails in some places, but it's interesting enough to make up for that.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

those people don't give two rat shits about landmarking MC, they only care about keeping DLR out, and for that, i am diametrically opposed to them and everything they stand for. call me petty and small, but motivations matter to me.

No, I don't think you are petty. I understand and I also take the underlying motives into account before I support something. Hopefully in the future you will have an option of supporting something that you can endorse. Or, do an end run around the idiots and start a real preservation campaign.

[aic4ever]

Originally Posted by cbotnyse

digging my own grave? what the hell are you talking about?

North Michigan Ave has the highest concentration of upscale condos and hotels, so why aren't there tons of fast food places surrounding them to feed all of their poor workers? your reasoning makes no sense.

North Michigan Avenue is not the Loop. North Michigan Avenue, and the Gold Coast is where the big money in this city has been forever. While there might not be major fast food directly on Michigan, there is really NO food directly on Michigan. Everywhere to eat is just west of Michigan, or in the case of the ever upscale TGI Fridays, just east, and to put it in perspective for you, the busy Red Line stop at Chicago is immediately fronted by a McDonalds, a Seattle's Best coffee, and a Jimmy Johns, among other hole in the wall hot dog and mexican joints.

I worked two blocks away from where Block 37 is being built for five years. The Loop is a ghost town after six on weekdays, and on weekends. You are hard pressed to find anything open at all on a Sunday.

so you want to encourage that by putting in fast food that closes at 6pm? GMAFB

I'm not telling you that I'm encouraging more fast food, or the continuing desertion of the Loop after six. I'm telling you what the facts are, that you seem disinclined to care about. Would I welcome a new, more upscale spot in the building? Of course. I'm telling you that from an economic standpoint, the market is not there to support a gathering of ONLY upscale spots, and it doesn't make sense that the developer would try to force something like that to happen, when it's flat out not going to. You're going to see fast food in there, whether you like it or not, and it's going to be a hell of a lot more prevalent than any higher end places.

[cbotnyse]

^^aic, you're missing my point. I never said upscale or fine dining. Anything above fast food is what I'd rather see.

Dont try and convince me that location cant support mid priced dining options. That is a joke. If there was something along the lines of a TGI Friday's, a Goose Island, maybe a sushi place, more Loop and River North residents would go there during the week. A DQ and McDonalds certainly wouldn't encourage that.

[Steely Dan]

^ ooooooooh, goose island at B37 would be fantastic, and with their clyborn brew-pub closing..........

[BWChicago]

Originally Posted by aic4ever

North Michigan Avenue is not the Loop. North Michigan Avenue, and the Gold Coast is where the big money in this city has been forever.

This isn't really true. Money only started flowing that way in the 1920s after the Wrigley building (remember it used to be Pine Street north of the river), and North Michigan didn't get going as an elite shopping district until Arthur Rubloff started aggressively promoting it. Before Wrigley and the Michigan Avenue bridge and decking the streets, it was industrial and working-class. When you start getting up by Oak Street and LSD that's more of a historically upscale district, but not really 'forever', it was the South Side that was the earlier big money area, until Potter Palmer built his castle.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

...probably old news, but featured in the last issue of Dwell.

Solid Gold
Story by Geoff Manaugh / Photos by Doug Fogelson/DRFP

When it comes to material originality,this former tavern in Chicago’s trendy Bucktown neighborhood pulls out all the stops. Case in point? Colorful pieces of broken LPs are visible in the glass aggregate flooring of the upstairs master bathroom—-which the architects made from the pulverized remains of old vinyl records...

http://www.dwell.com/homes/green/15374186.html

[Mojava]

Originally Posted by aic4ever

While there might not be major fast food directly on Michigan, there is really NO food directly on Michigan.

Bandera, Grand Luxe, and Cheese Cake Factory just to name a few

[ardecila]

Rosa Mexicano has signed a lease at B37 (3rd floor, I think, if anybody's looked at the leasing diagrams). It's a small chain of upscale restaurants with 6 locations in urban neighborhoods in major East Coast cities. I visited one in Atlanta a few weeks ago, it was pretty good. They should take quite a bit of square footage, and they will draw people upstairs. Lettuce Entertain You has also signed a lease for a space, but I they haven't released the restaurant concept yet.

It's these kinds of establishments that I would like to see in B37, but by no means can all the square footage in the building be filled with such upscale tenants. Mills was the original developer, and what did we get? Surprise, surprise - a suburban mall, only it's not surrounded by parking and it's a bit more compact. But the retail spaces are still set up the same way, which means that stores which thrive in suburban enclosed malls will also be looking at B37 spaces.

[wrab]

Grant Park museum foes criticize liquor request
Supporters say item in zoning application is routine

Tribune staff report
7:30 PM CDT, April 16, 2008
Critics of the proposed move of the Children's Museum to Grant Park called attention Wednesday to a provision in the museum's zoning application that would allow liquor to be sold on the premises.

The provision refers to a specific area in the structure where the Children's Museum would be able to operate restaurants.....

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,5599686.story

[sammyg]

Originally Posted by ardecila

a suburban mall, only it's not surrounded by parking and it's a bit more compact. But the retail spaces are still set up the same way, which means that stores which thrive in suburban enclosed malls will also be looking at B37 spaces.

Well, there's already an Old Navy and Loehmanns right there, how much worse could it get?

Though if Hot Topic and Spencers are the first thing people see getting off the O'hare express, that won't be a great intro to the loop.

[the urban politician]

I've got a very very very easy solution to everybody's concern about Chicago's demand for cheap eats downtown.

STREET FRIGGIN VENDORS. I know you're sick of it, but it's THE answer.

If Chicago had more street vendors, less retail space would need to be wasted on crap like Burger King, Wendy's, and (now) Dairy Queen.

I stand by this position more than ever given my experiences over the years, and when I move to Chicago, I'll pitch it personally before City Council.