Westboro Connection | Completed

[waterloowarrior]

http://www.westborocollection.com/

The Open House panels are now up

[waterloowarrior]

interesting... they posted the comments they got from the community online

[Dado]

I was reading those as well.

I like the comment about the tower rising up elegantly in a terrace and then sprouting an incongruous stack. That's pretty much what I thought too. I'm 99% sure that those last 3-5 stories will end up getting knocked off. I've got no opposition to 16 storeys at that site but it just doesn't look right.

I was at that meeting; my comments aren't there because I never submitted any written comments, just oral comments to some of the representatives. There were a fair number of people present who didn't live on Clifton who, like me, by and large support the project and therefore didn't leave comments.

One of the comments I suggested was to create a square (i.e. not to grass the entire place up) that could be used for outdoor markets and the like. I also like the idea of relocating the hydro corridor to pole-style towers in a median. I hadn't thought of the concern of people on Clifton of people parking on Clifton and using the pedestrian path. Clifton is unfortunately being used as an extension of Kirkwood to get to Island Park/Champlain Bridge, the Metropole as well as to the infill to the east (which has no road access from Kirkwood to prevent the same thing from happening). They're going to have to put some traffic calming measures in to divert motorists to McRae I think.

[Suzie]

Wow! I’ve been waiting a long time for the redevelopment of those decrepit properties and parking lots on McRae. It’s going to make a huge difference, and hopefully kick start further development on Scott and north of the Westboro Transitway Station. And you have to give these guys high marks for transparency.

I’m happy to see options for the street itself since McRae is currently a mess, particularly during weekends when there are parked cars on both sides of the street and not enough space for two-way traffic. I’ve seen bus drivers just give up and go down Athlone instead in order to reach the Westboro Transitway Station. If they are going to restrict access to Clifton, McRae will see even more traffic so it needs to be fixed.

In an ideal world, the hydro lines would be buried. However, I certainly could live with the three options they presented.

I’d be interested in knowing how Bushtukha and Trailhead feel about this proposal. It looks like they would lose some parking spaces, although in the case of Trailhead this could be mitigated somewhat by more on-street parking on Scott. I don’t think they’ll regard underground parking as a perfect substitute.

Ken Gray noted that the 16-storey tower could aggravate the wind problem on Scott Street that the Metropole creates. On some days, the wind is brutal for people trying to reach the Westboro Transitway Station from the East.

Some of the comments do not surprise me. When I attended a meeting on what is now known as the 101 Richmond project, there was lot of resentment expressed against condos in particular. Some people regard them as little better than crack houses.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by Suzie

Some of the comments do not surprise me. When I attended a meeting on what is now known as the 101 Richmond project, there was lot of resentment expressed against condos in particular. Some people regard them as little better than crack houses.

What a surreal observation! One day we'll be able to laugh at all of this... Evidently, they don't have the same idea of a "condo" as those who have known and seen the elegant Victorian or Haussmannian apartments of old London and Paris. Ain't no riff-raff livin' there.

[waterloowarrior]

I heard a story where residents opposed new condos in the neighbourhood for fear of crime, property values, etc...then were told the condos would be selling for more money than their single family homes

edit: might have been from the forum meet, I can't remember exactly.

[Dado]

Oh yes, one of the other things that I suggested was that they suggest to the City that when Westboro Station is extended for LRT that it be extended entirely to the east. One of the plans (by the City I believe) is to put in a pedestrian overpass opposite McRae across at that utility bridge just east of the station (Suzie - you probably know what I'm referring to) to connect into the path alongside the Metropole. By shifting the centre of the station eastwards more people would be coming to grade opposite McRae rather than heading up Tweedsmuir or Athlone as at present.


As for the hydro poles, this to me should be seen as an opportunity. There aren't going to be many of them - probably three. The poles are relatively clean looking and their lower reaches can be used for draping things like flags/banners and special lamp standards. The issue, as always, is coordinating that kind of thing.

[highdensitysprawl]

Originally Posted by Suzie

When I attended a meeting on what is now known as the 101 Richmond project, there was lot of resentment expressed against condos in particular. Some people regard them as little better than crack houses.

A condominium is merely a form of ownership. However, the word 'condo' has come to mean, in many peoples minds, a large ap't bldg often built in an area of SFR's or it has come to mean a bldg with 'yuppies' etc, who don't understand the way life has gone on in the neighbourhood since the beginning of time and they won't blend in.

Also condos are responsible for all property values going down, taxes going up and noise, pollution, vagrancy, teenagers hanging out, drugs, prostitution and traffic.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by highdensitysprawl

Also condos are responsible for all property values going down, taxes going up and noise, pollution, vagrancy, teenagers hanging out, drugs, prostitution and traffic.

Funny, in actual fact, the "teens hanging out" phenomenon is much more "visible" in environments that are all single-family or ground-oriented homes. Aylmer was known (still is?) for its bush parties, parents despaired about them, but no matter how many task forces, outreach programs, speeches and whatever else was tried, daily life was always there the next morning: there's not much to do, downtown is far, and the buses don't run often. That's why they convinced a businessman to open a cinema in Aylmer.

As if, by the way, the idea of "teens hanging out" should be something to frown upon. What could be more normal and healthy than having and making friends! People who are threatened by tenneagers having fun need to get a life. Not all fun is equally healthy, of course, and parenting plays a role is setting those parameters, but fun itself can never be taken away from teens. They have plenty of time for seriousness later.

[Karlis]

Hello Skyscraper-ites,

Traffic and safety are huge issues for myself and the other residents of Clifton Road, especially considering the number of young children on the street and the lack of sidewalks.

We hope that with this development, the city will recognize the urgent need to address the traffic stresses we are currently facing.

Karlis

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by Karlis

Hello Skyscraper-ites,

Traffic and safety are huge issues for myself and the other residents of Clifton Road, especially considering the number of young children on the street and the lack of sidewalks.

We hope that with this development, the city will recognize the urgent need to address the traffic stresses we are currently facing.

Karlis

Hello Karlis, welcome to the Forum, here's hoping you post your views and opinions, and pictures, as often as possible.

On Westboro Collection. Would you say that the proper approach would be to provide wide sidewalks and allow for continuous on-street parking, to ensure a buffer of parked vehicles between children on the sidewalk and moving traffic on the street?

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Hello Karlis, welcome to the Forum, here's hoping you post your views and opinions, and pictures, as often as possible.

On Westboro Collection. Would you say that the proper approach would be to provide wide sidewalks and allow for continuous on-street parking, to ensure a buffer of parked vehicles between children on the sidewalk and moving traffic on the street?

Objection: Leading question

Wouldn't you say that a narrow street with widened, treed sidewalks and bulb-outs and parking alternating on the two sides of a meandering cobble street would be your preference because it would dissuade all but local vehicles from accessing the street and thus provide a safer environment for the children?

Actually, I have never thought that a long row of parked cars and children made a particularly safe combination. I would much rather see the parked cars broken into short groups by bulb-outs since it gives kids a better place to cross, and better visibility to drivers.

[Suzie]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Hello Karlis, welcome to the Forum, here's hoping you post your views and opinions, and pictures, as often as possible.

On Westboro Collection. Would you say that the proper approach would be to provide wide sidewalks and allow for continuous on-street parking, to ensure a buffer of parked vehicles between children on the sidewalk and moving traffic on the street?

As Dado noted, the basic issue is that many people use Clifton to travel between Kirkwood and Scott Street. So there is steady traffic on a residential street. Although I use Clifton mainly for walking, I admit that I do drive on it on occasions because McRae and Island Park Drive can be congested. Whenever I do so, I try to limit my speed in order to respect those who live there. However, there are always people who don’t care and thus speed, despite the narrowing of the street to one lane in places due to weird-looking bulb-outs.

Sidewalks would definitely help improve safety for pedestrians (there are currently no sidewalks on Clifton between Wilber and Scott and the sidewalk between Wilber and Richmond is crappy). However, it would not reduce the level of traffic, which some would argue is too high for a residential street. Children like to wander onto the street so there would still be a safety issue.

I am in favour of the Westboro Collection project and don’t share some of the concerns that have been voiced by the residents of Clifton. This being said, I do agree that something needs to be done about the traffic on that street. This should be done in parallel with improvements to McRae and its intersections with Richmond and Scott in order to make it a better alternative.

[Radster]

That is very laughable IMO. The Metropole across the street is way higher, and like the Metropole, this proposed 16 storey building will be to the north of the homes owned by those who feel they will be most affected, meaning that it will not block sunlight, unlike what some of those NIMBYs are crying about. Also, 16 storeys is not high, plus it is a terraced building, so it won't be a big box-like tower.
These NIMBY comments linked above are so typical of Ottawa, but I was happy to see many comments were overall supportive of this project.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Objection: Leading question

Wouldn't you say that a narrow street with widened, treed sidewalks and bulb-outs and parking alternating on the two sides of a meandering cobble street would be your preference because it would dissuade all but local vehicles from accessing the street and thus provide a safer environment for the children?

Actually, I have never thought that a long row of parked cars and children made a particularly safe combination. I would much rather see the parked cars broken into short groups by bulb-outs since it gives kids a better place to cross, and better visibility to drivers.

Leading question or not, it didn't stop you from expressing your view. Bulbouts are OK for crossing, I agree, but be mindful that "better visibility for drivers" only encourages speed.

[m0nkyman]

Angled parking is much better at calming traffic than parallel parking. Especially when on a cobbled street like Richard was suggesting.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Bulbouts are OK for crossing, I agree, but be mindful that "better visibility for drivers" only encourages speed.

I think what was meant was "daylighting" a crosswalk, which is really more visibility for the pedestrian as well.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Leading question or not, it didn't stop you from expressing your view. Bulbouts are OK for crossing, I agree, but be mindful that "better visibility for drivers" only encourages speed.

Sorry, I was just jesting. I have been hearing too much about political trials and inquests lately and I got caught up in the moment.

Yes, I did add my opinion though. If this is to be a purely residential street, then it could have so-called 'traffic calming' measures implemented. Notice that I said before that it was a "meandering cobble" street so the sight lines are not that long. For example:



shows a single-direction street with angle parking and bulb-outs. The bulb-outs are before the parking so that the drivers and pedestrians have the best chance of seeing each other. The driver is forced to adjust course frequently enough that no speed is built up.

I suggest single-direction because I think it is probably safer.

As I said, I think that this type of thing can be implemented in purely residential areas, but those areas must be properly serviced by larger roads which actually handle the traffic loads; that is, the neighbourhoods will be separated by arterial roads with higher speeds.

Traffic calming, as put forth by groups like CART (Citizens Advocating Responsible Transportation) are nice ideas, but I fear that they are best applied to smaller areas. People want choices and have mobility, via their car, to get to those choices. It is all very nice to say that each neighbourhood will have a pub, laundromat, and convenience store so people don't need a car; however, once you start adding other amenities, the area would get so crowded with libraries, pizzarias, fine restaurants, Walmarts, schools, churches, community centres, McDonalds, offices, etc., that there would be little room left for the residences.

Then there is the question of whether the local neighbourhood can support the facilities which would need to be present in each area? Walmarts and Catholic Churches are not neighbourhood based and are built large to draw people in from a wide area. Gone are the days when people would walk 2 miles to go to church.

And are people willing to spend more on all of their purchases? A mom & pop corner shop certainly can't get the same discounts from the manufacturer as Best Buy can. I know I'm willing and able to travel 10Km in my car to save $400 on a new LCD TV.

What about when you hear that the new chip-wagon in the east-end makes the best Poutine and you live near the one in the west-end that uses grated cheese instead of fresh, never refrigerated, cheese curds. Cruds so fresh that the squeeking is almost deafening if you eat them alone, without the muting effect of the rich, thick gravey. Are you willing to drive to the east-end for better Poutine?

Traffic calming has some applications, but so do big roads, and I think the City's Planners need to realize that. Installing disincentives to car travel along Lyon in the name of traffic calming is silly: If the City created, admittedly at great cost, main roads to connect things, then most traffic would stay on those big roads and the smaller roads would benefit. Look at the number of cars that the Queensway carries; if they were forced off of the 417, that traffic would distribute across many a local street as the drivers try to find 'a better way home'. (Of course, they could always take the train - Oh, wait, Ottawa doesn't have a train yet. And when we do get one, it won't go out to the suburbs.)

OK, I'll come down off my soap-box now.

[Mille Sabords]

Nice! That's a good model, actually. It can easily be adapted to 2-way streets. I see what you mean.

[waterloowarrior]

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