Why can't London DO stuff?

[chevy064]

Thats life - if certain people don't stand to gain from a project (even though it will benefit an area as a whole) - they help to slow things down or even block it from happening all together.

Money is the way of the world and the root of all evil. Sad I know.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by muppet

The largest in the country at the mo is the upgrading of the London-Glasgow train line to high speed. It will cost more than the entire Channel Tunnel compex- $36 billion FOR ONE TRAIN TRACK. THATiS ALREADY FECKIN THERE.

I'm not quite sure how your idea of upgrading a 400 mile main line that carries 2000 trains a day, nearly half of all freight services in the country, and passes through the middle of the 5 biggest cities in the UK is simple??
The final cost was not $36 billion - it came in at around 9 billion pounds.

As far as I'm concerned, these projects are infinitely times more important than hosting the bloody Olympics!!
When I hear that it's going to cost 9 billion pounds of our money to hold a 2 week event, while the NHS is grossly inefficient and the UK's whole transport infrastructure is decades outdated, it makes me sick.
The UK is such a backwards country, I often wonder why I live here!

[hoosier]

Originally Posted by PeterG

I'm not quite sure how your idea of upgrading a 400 mile main line that carries 2000 trains a day, nearly half of all freight services in the country, and passes through the middle of the 5 biggest cities in the UK is simple??
The final cost was not $36 billion - it came in at around 9 billion pounds.

As far as I'm concerned, these projects are infinitely times more important than hosting the bloody Olympics!!
When I hear that it's going to cost 9 billion pounds of our money to hold a 2 week event, while the NHS is grossly inefficient and the UK's whole transport infrastructure is decades outdated, it makes me sick.
The UK is such a backwards country, I often wonder why I live here!

Count your blessings, at least you HAVE a comprehensive national health insurance program and a decent rail infrastructure.

Here in the good 'ol USA we have NEITHER and aren't likely to get them for at least a generation.

Plus, in response to the original post of this thread, when comparing London to New York, London is LIGHT YEARS ahead of NYC, which is plagued by bureaucratic malaise and NIMBYism that has stalled much needed infrastructure improvements.

[Lucky Luke]

Nice little addendum. This week the government has announced that official estimates for holding the Olympic Games are quadrupling from just over 2bn£ to over 9 bn£. But hold it, there are still 5 years to go. Let's start a sweepstake right now. I put my money on, mmmm.... £15bn?

[JBinCalgary]

i hope the olympics go well

[one very bored guy]

What makes you think that large projects running over budget are exclusive to London? You maybe surprised to find out that many famous landmarks in the world exceeded their budget and/or completion deadlines. One of the most famous is the Sydney Opera House which ran 15x the original budget. Now if the 2012 Olympics were to do that it would cost 30billion.

I can think of countless cost overruns and design failures around the world, London is certainly no different there.

[Jonas]

It seems it's not ONLY London but it still makes me wonder, what the hell is happening with, for exmple, London's public transport systems? The government is boasting about spending £10bn but it's been while already it seems... Why can't they simply put air cons into buses or the underground? Why "the train has been delayed due to signaling problems" is a daily business when I'm just trying to get to work (what about changing all these bloody signaling systems so that they wouldn't fail?). Why just not to take a look at HK or Singapore and make things work in the same way in London (i.e. more efficiently, cheaper and simply better?). London's a fantastic city and hardly any city can match it when it comes to most of the positive things but sometimes the inefficiency is just staggering.

[BenL]

Air conditioning is being phased onto the Underground sub-surface lines (such as the District and Circle line) whilst there are plans for air-cooling systems on the deeper lines.

[Jonas]

Originally Posted by BenL

Air conditioning is being phased onto the Underground sub-surface lines (such as the District and Circle line) whilst there are plans for air-cooling systems on the deeper lines.

It's about time... it's not 19th century anymore :|

[HowardL]

Not that this post will contribute to the discussion much. but ... even on its most crap day, London just makes being alive a bit more worth it.

[Razqal]

maybe brits drink too much beer. i hear alcohol is served 24/7 there. can't construct anything properly there when you're too buzzed on the job, ya know???

[one very bored guy]

Originally Posted by Jonas

It seems it's not ONLY London but it still makes me wonder, what the hell is happening with, for exmple, London's public transport systems? The government is boasting about spending £10bn but it's been while already it seems... Why can't they simply put air cons into buses or the underground? Why "the train has been delayed due to signaling problems" is a daily business when I'm just trying to get to work (what about changing all these bloody signaling systems so that they wouldn't fail?). Why just not to take a look at HK or Singapore and make things work in the same way in London (i.e. more efficiently, cheaper and simply better?). London's a fantastic city and hardly any city can match it when it comes to most of the positive things but sometimes the inefficiency is just staggering.

It comes down pretty much to two things. Size and age. London's underground network is not only the largest in the world, but also the oldest. The design of the older lines simply make it very difficult to install air conditioning on the trains. And the enormous size of the network makes any improvements very expensive.

Of cause the networks in Singapore and Hong Kong are more modern. They are newer. They were built when air conditioning had already been invented, and in much warmer parts of the world (Singapore is tropical).

Look how wonderful the new lines in london look. Obviously the newer technology has also come to the underground in these new lines.

[zilfondel]

Two words: Prince Charles.

Of course, that isn't really the case anymore, but he sure put Modern Architecture ande public works projects through the firing squad in the 80s and early 90s.

[muppet]

no, its got nothing to do with architectural style. If anything its the opposite camp thats gotten the bill so astronomically high, and the building work so staggered and bureacratic - its the big business contractors who are charging by the hour, the lawyers finding fault and potential lawsuits in everything, and the culture of suing organisations combined with business policies avoiding any risks whatsoever. Its the insurers, the auditors, the lawyers, the contractors, etc all taking a piece of the pie - and why so much money is blown away before the whole project collapses in the red. If the landowners have any strategy, they drop all their plans and sell on at a profit, as in the case of Battersea Power Station - twice bitten and now half demolished (and seriously degrading under the weather) thanx to convoluted processes and dirty dealings. For over 30 years now one of the greatest and most iconic landmarks in London, with some of the highest potential in land values, has lain derelict.

[BINARY SYSTEM]

It's ok...New York can't do anything either!

[muppet]

ok picture this, its 90f outside, on the tube that equates to 130f, which far exceeds the EU regulations on temperature on the humane transportation of animals. Of course because they use cheapest grade steel the tracks bend - another much wider issue with the national train network on the whole, and its tendency to derail trains - and the train is forced to shuttle forward at less than half speed. This blocks up the entire London network as the computers ensure that no train is less than one station away from each other, to avoid collisions (rightfully so). In effect my physical experience of commuting during summer was nothing short of hell. The first day the train stopped in the tunnel while the carriage was absolutely crushed full of people at rush hour, made worse by the network wide delays. You could see and feel the sweat dripping off people every time they flicked their head and running down their noses,and onto someone else. The smell was horrible - dubbed 'armpit ambience' by the common sufferers, and like being in a sauna with clothes on, and alot more embarrassment - I was forced to take my top off too. Its been rare Ive ever been so frustrated.

Every day after that for the entire heatwave was the same story, stopping for 5 minutes in the tunnel, then shuffling to the next station, cramming more people on, stopping another 5 minutes, shuffling forward etc. I took to taking a towel with me to work and play, and dressing like a beach muppet, and dealing with my claustrophobia issues.


Then theres the issue of the entire lines breaking down every few minutes due to 'signal failures' that Metronet make 500 million a year by 'fixing', and that force trains to wait 7 minutes before turning up at rush hour. This 7 minutes is astronomical in London terms, when you think its every 2 minutes a train turns up and gets crammed to overflowing each time, you can imagine more than 3x the crowd that's built up by then, a few thousand per minute, trying to get on.
At the next station the train is so utterly full noone can get on, so you have to wait another 7 minutes before the next train which of course is also utterly packed. Now remember London rush 'hour' is actually 3.5 hours a pop and you can imagine the crowds - queueing to get into the station, queueing to get into the ticket hall (and woe betide thee who actually wants to buy a ticket), queueing to get past the ticket barriers, queueing to get onto the platform, and finally on the train. The last time this happened I actually got off at the WRONG station (along with a few other people) as we couldnt actually see the station name signs from the mass of humanity - and had to repeat the process all over again. I came close to fucking lamping an innocent bystander. My work couldnt believe how it could take me near 2 hrs from when I first rang to say Id be late on the tube to actually getting there - in that time I could have walked and some.


And now for the cherry on top - for this, all this, you're paying the most expensive travel pricing in the world. Mile on mile London transport works out more than Concorde did. And where does all those billions go? To the corrupt companies that have taken over the system. Its interesting to note when it was a public office, entire tube lines were built and costmanaged within 7 years and actually UNDER budget, trains ran on time and without failure. Also on the overground trains, they had more carriage space, whereas nowadays the big business has worked out its more cost optimising if you cram your carriages with standing room only, for 2 hrs commute in some cases, while pretending they dont have the funds to add extra carriages on - it saves on the FUEL used to transport x amount of people of course.

They did recently add extra carriages after consumer boycotts this year - and bless'em, hiked the price by a third for the luxury, on already extortionate rates. Its now more expensive to travel to Manchester by train on the day than to Paris, and in some instances to NYC (I was quoted $500 on my last trip).

anyway argh! rant over. I just find it annoying that my quality of life is being sold to some fatcat fuckers pocket, who makes more by lowering it, and laughs at my stupidity/ powerlessness for taking it.

[muppet]

PS has anyone, anything EVER seen anyone, anything working on the Regents Park station refit? Its always utterly devoid of human life everytime I shuttle past on the tube.

[one very bored guy]

Originally Posted by muppet

And now for the cherry on top - for this, all this, you're paying the most expensive travel pricing in the world. Mile on mile London transport works out more than Concorde did.

Sorry, I don't believe you a bit there.

The Metropolitan Line (Is this the longest in London?) is 67km from end to end. A cash fare is £4 (and Oyster fare £3.50)

The concord between London and New York is 5585km. At the cash fare of the Metropolitan line, that would make the trip £332 (£292 for Oyster fare)

Quite cheaper than the standard fare of a single journey by concord between London and NY at just under £4000!

Now, of cause, if you look at a single journey between two stations of only a km in between then yes, it will cost more than a concorde trip. However, that is the case almost everywhere in the world. The cheapest fare on Frankfurt's U-bahn is £1.30 (slightly cheaper than London's cheapest Tube fare of £1.50 with Oyster), yet it is still more expensive in Frankfurt to travel 1km on the U-bahn than the Concorde (when comparing distances) - like almost everywhere else on earth.

Funny thing is, in most cases you will find that dramatic statistics are often far from reality. They are designed to shock people who don't bother to check things up.

By the way, although it is slightly more expensive for the cheapest London fare on the Tube over Frankfurt. That £1.50 fare will get you further than the £1.30 fare in Frankfurt.

[muppet]

true, dont get me wrong theres alot I love about the system, such as the fact under 18s go free, the vast are covered, the easy connectability and of course, the map. But yeah, the price of a single fare is £4 if youre not paying with the oystercard scheme, that puts many single journeys within the central Circle more expensive than Concorde, (but not the case if youre taking a single from one end of the line to the other end).

[Mercutio]

London's actually building a hell of a lot of massive projects. Some of the government projects did indeed come in late and over budget (Millennium Dome, Wembley, Jubilee Line Extension) but it's not as if they weren't "done". They were done and damn spectacular they are too. Other recent high profile projects such as the London Eye, Tate Modern, Heathrow Terminal 5, the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, Arsenal, Twickenham etc are doing fine. And it's odd that you negatively compare London's Olympic preparations against those of Athens. Athens' Olympic projects came in very late and very much over budget!!