Hamilton Wentworth District School Board

[tyeman200]

I posted this here because I wasn't sure where else I could put this thread.

I know for one, I'm not from Hamilton. But, I have visited the city many, many times, and been to some of the schools there. What do you guys think of the way the public school board there is run? I have read a lot on the school board, and I've come across lots of criticism towards the board. I was wondering what you guys think of them, and any concerns/problems you have faced with them.

Reading about them, I do hate the fact that the board keeps shutting down school after school after school, and merging more and more schools together. Personally, I'm not all into building these new schools, cramming kids in there, and having class sizes with 30 or more kids.

But what are your opinions on this topic with the school board?

[matt602]

They're really good at closing inner-city schools and largely ignoring public input.

I'm not really sure what else they're good at.

[bigguy1231]

They are closing schools because they are either underutilized or old. Empty schools are just as expensive to operate as full ones and older schools cost more to retrofit than building a new one. They also have restrictions placed on them by the province through funding formula's. The trustees are between a rock and a hard place and more often than not have to make decisions that aren't popular. No one wants to see neighbourhood schools closed but it unfortunately has to happen to keep the whole system healthy.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

They are closing schools because they are either underutilized or old. Empty schools are just as expensive to operate as full ones and older schools cost more to retrofit than building a new one. They also have restrictions placed on them by the province through funding formula's. The trustees are between a rock and a hard place and more often than not have to make decisions that aren't popular. No one wants to see neighbourhood schools closed but it unfortunately has to happen to keep the whole system healthy.

Not sure about the 'healthy' bit. Far from it, unfortunately.

[king10]

They're miles behind the Catholic School Board in Hamilton in closing schools and keeping capacity percentages high. They have more than twice the amount of high school than the Catholic board with many less than 75% capacity. When you get paid by the government per student it makes it tough to upkeep a massive 75 yr old building when its below 75% capcity.

The catholic school board has 7 highschools. 6 of which have been built since the mid 90's, so less than 20 years old. They've had so much money in their coffers that they're shelling out $2 million per high school to install turf fields and grandstands. The catholic schools have class sizes of around 20 to 25. Most schools have population from 1500 to 2000. Its economies of scale, its more efficent that way.

IMO the publiic board was slow to react to demographic changes in the city and gave in too much to demands of parents wanting to keep underpopulated school's open. For example the catholic board has ONE high school in the old Lower City Hamlton propper where there aren't as many young families as the suburbs. Meanwhile the public board has at least 4 that I can count off the top of my head.

I agree with bigguy1231. Inner city schools need to be closed to keep the system "healthy." Times change, demographics change and people can't be caught up in the nostaglia of their old school. The new schools need to be built where the new neighbourhoods are popping up.

Lets not forget that there are less children in the school system than 20 to 30 years ago because of the aging populaion of baby boomers who make up a large chunk of the population.

Closing schools and "rightsizing" is a necesary evil. The financial situation when comparing the Catholic to Public school board is night and day as evidenced by its shiny new highschools and multi million dollar sports fields.

[oldcoote]

Originally Posted by king10

They're miles behind the Catholic School Board in Hamilton in closing schools and keeping capacity percentages high. They have more than twice the amount of high school than the Catholic board with many less than 75% capacity. When you get paid by the government per student it makes it tough to upkeep a massive 75 yr old building when its below 75% capcity.

The catholic school board has 7 highschools. 6 of which have been built since the mid 90's, so less than 20 years old. They've had so much money in their coffers that they're shelling out $2 million per high school to install turf fields and grandstands. The catholic schools have class sizes of around 20 to 25. Most schools have population from 1500 to 2000. Its economies of scale, its more efficent that way.

IMO the publiic board was slow to react to demographic changes in the city and gave in too much to demands of parents wanting to keep underpopulated school's open. For example the catholic board has ONE high school in the old Lower City Hamlton propper where there aren't as many young families as the suburbs. Meanwhile the public board has at least 4 that I can count off the top of my head.

I agree with bigguy1231. Inner city schools need to be closed to keep the system "healthy." Times change, demographics change and people can't be caught up in the nostaglia of their old school. The new schools need to be built where the new neighbourhoods are popping up.

Lets not forget that there are less children in the school system than 20 to 30 years ago because of the aging populaion of baby boomers who make up a large chunk of the population.

Closing schools and "rightsizing" is a necesary evil. The financial situation when comparing the Catholic to Public school board is night and day as evidenced by its shiny new highschools and multi million dollar sports fields.

A generation ago, it was the complete opposite. The catholic schools were old and dilapitated. (Remember the old STM?). The Catholic board certainly capitalized on urban sprawl as most of their schools are suburban. This is probably a cyclical thing.

Both boards plan for the present, but need to accommodate the future in their planning. St Mary's was built and within a few years had 20 portables on site. Bad planning imo. Mega-schools are a negative trend.

Look forward to the day when the military has to hold a bake sale to raise funds. We're doing our kids a disservice.

[king10]

Originally Posted by oldcoote

A generation ago, it was the complete opposite. The catholic schools were old and dilapitated. (Remember the old STM?). The Catholic board certainly capitalized on urban sprawl as most of their schools are suburban. This is probably a cyclical thing.

Both boards plan for the present, but need to accommodate the future in their planning. St Mary's was built and within a few years had 20 portables on site. Bad planning imo. Mega-schools are a negative trend.

Look forward to the day when the military has to hold a bake sale to raise funds. We're doing our kids a disservice.

Of course its a cyclical thing. And at that point when the demographics change again the Catholic schools will be 50 to 70 plus years old and they will make the tough decision of closing them down and building new ones in the core if necessary. They would have got their moneys worth out of those buildings. Also a generation ago Catholic schools were old and dilapated because they weren't receiving equal funding when compared to public schools. Catholic students had to pay out of their own pocket to go to school to subsidize the difference. Ever since catholic schools have received equal funding they have been able to make smart economic decisions.

And St Mary was good planning IMO. Those portables were there for less than 10 years until the new Bishop Tonnas school was built. Its better to be overcacpity for a decade than under capacity for 50 years. Look how the undercapcaity public schools are falling into disrepair.

St marys is currently the smallest catholic highschool population wise. The portables were a temporary fix untill the new Bishop Tonnas was built. That was planning for the future, they didnt over build the school because they knew a new school was in the works in Ancater. Overbuilding Marys would have left it under capacity and underutilized instead portables were a fix for less than 10 years.

Look at STM it had tons of portables and they recently complated a new multi million dollar addition to the school to meet the growing demand. Consolidation saves money and a small amount portables act as a buffer zone for the unpredictable year to year enrollment fluctuations.

Mega schools aren't a negative trend. Its economics, economies of scale. Capatalizing on effiencies. Simple example 20 high schools require 20 Principles and at least 40 Vps. 7 High schools requries 7 principles and 14 VPs. Right there alone you're saving over $2 million. Not to mention heating and maintenance.

And i disagree wit "both boards plan with the present" The whole idea of moving the new BR to rymal road was because of the massive developments planned in the future for binbrook and rymal road, much of which has already started.

[tyeman200]

Originally Posted by king10

They're miles behind the Catholic School Board in Hamilton in closing schools and keeping capacity percentages high. They have more than twice the amount of high school than the Catholic board with many less than 75% capacity. When you get paid by the government per student it makes it tough to upkeep a massive 75 yr old building when its below 75% capcity.

The catholic school board has 7 highschools. 6 of which have been built since the mid 90's, so less than 20 years old. They've had so much money in their coffers that they're shelling out $2 million per high school to install turf fields and grandstands. The catholic schools have class sizes of around 20 to 25. Most schools have population from 1500 to 2000. Its economies of scale, its more efficent that way.

IMO the publiic board was slow to react to demographic changes in the city and gave in too much to demands of parents wanting to keep underpopulated school's open. For example the catholic board has ONE high school in the old Lower City Hamlton propper where there aren't as many young families as the suburbs. Meanwhile the public board has at least 4 that I can count off the top of my head.

I agree with bigguy1231. Inner city schools need to be closed to keep the system "healthy." Times change, demographics change and people can't be caught up in the nostaglia of their old school. The new schools need to be built where the new neighbourhoods are popping up.

Lets not forget that there are less children in the school system than 20 to 30 years ago because of the aging populaion of baby boomers who make up a large chunk of the population.

Closing schools and "rightsizing" is a necesary evil. The financial situation when comparing the Catholic to Public school board is night and day as evidenced by its shiny new highschools and multi million dollar sports fields.

Same thing with my city; before the 90s, there was just 2 Catholic schools, both that were built in the 50's and 60s. One of the high schools (my former one) wasn't even a high school till 1988 (used to be a seminary, then an all boys and boarding school). Since the 90s, they have built about 7 new high schools, the most recent being 2013.

My only problem with them closing schools, is closing the rural ones. I agree with them closing the inner city ones, but the rural ones I have a problem with. Mainly because those kids have to travel at least 30 minutes to a hour, on a bus, just to get to school. Plus, the fact that each year they have about 5-10 schools on the chopping block, which is just too much to close year after year.

IMO, the public school board should be closing and merging their schools more effectively, or at least making repairs to the ones they kept open over others. For example, back when they wanted to close Sherwood, Mountain and Hill Park schools, they decided to keep Sherwood and close Barton. But present day, if you have been to Sherwood recently, it is just a crap hole. It looks like it had been closed for the past few years. The exterior walls are falling apart, the courtyard is a mess, cobwebs everywhere, missing ceiling tiles, doors/walls that need repainting, etc. It wouldn't be a surprise to me if they just ended up closing that school as well, since they neglected it and made no repairs to it whatsoever.

[king10]

Originally Posted by tyeman200

Same thing with my city; before the 90s, there was just 2 Catholic schools, both that were built in the 50's and 60s. One of the high schools (my former one) wasn't even a high school till 1988 (used to be a seminary, then an all boys and boarding school). Since the 90s, they have built about 7 new high schools, the most recent being 2013.

My only problem with them closing schools, is closing the rural ones. I agree with them closing the inner city ones, but the rural ones I have a problem with. Mainly because those kids have to travel at least 30 minutes to a hour, on a bus, just to get to school. Plus, the fact that each year they have about 5-10 schools on the chopping block, which is just too much to close year after year.

IMO, the public school board should be closing and merging their schools more effectively, or at least making repairs to the ones they kept open over others. For example, back when they wanted to close Sherwood, Mountain and Hill Park schools, they decided to keep Sherwood and close Barton. But present day, if you have been to Sherwood recently, it is just a crap hole. It looks like it had been closed for the past few years. The exterior walls are falling apart, the courtyard is a mess, cobwebs everywhere, missing ceiling tiles, doors/walls that need repainting, etc. It wouldn't be a surprise to me if they just ended up closing that school as well, since they neglected it and made no repairs to it whatsoever.

If i remember correctly there was a huge outcry from Sherwood alumni to keep the school open..... evidently the board listened....

[oldcoote]

Originally Posted by tyeman200

Same thing with my city; before the 90s, there was just 2 Catholic schools, both that were built in the 50's and 60s. One of the high schools (my former one) wasn't even a high school till 1988 (used to be a seminary, then an all boys and boarding school). Since the 90s, they have built about 7 new high schools, the most recent being 2013.

My only problem with them closing schools, is closing the rural ones. I agree with them closing the inner city ones, but the rural ones I have a problem with. Mainly because those kids have to travel at least 30 minutes to a hour, on a bus, just to get to school. Plus, the fact that each year they have about 5-10 schools on the chopping block, which is just too much to close year after year.

IMO, the public school board should be closing and merging their schools more effectively, or at least making repairs to the ones they kept open over others. For example, back when they wanted to close Sherwood, Mountain and Hill Park schools, they decided to keep Sherwood and close Barton. But present day, if you have been to Sherwood recently, it is just a crap hole. It looks like it had been closed for the past few years. The exterior walls are falling apart, the courtyard is a mess, cobwebs everywhere, missing ceiling tiles, doors/walls that need repainting, etc. It wouldn't be a surprise to me if they just ended up closing that school as well, since they neglected it and made no repairs to it whatsoever.

The School Board doesn't maintain the schools to appropriate standards. You or I, we buy a house and maintain it. They watch schools crumble.

Some of the public schools in Hamilton are third world.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by oldcoote

The School Board doesn't maintain the schools to appropriate standards. You or I, we buy a house and maintain it. They watch schools crumble.

Some of the public schools in Hamilton are third world.

It's not all the boards fault. They depend on funding from the province for maintenance and if they don't get the funding needed they have no way of making up the shortfall. The funding formula's are flawed and need to be fixed.

[tyeman200]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

It's not all the boards fault. They depend on funding from the province for maintenance and if they don't get the funding needed they have no way of making up the shortfall. The funding formula's are flawed and need to be fixed.

I do agree with you with how the funding is. But, at the same time, why would they bother keeping a school open, if they can't even get the funding to fix it up? I mean, that decision to keep it open happened 3 years ago, and no repairs have been made. The school is basically near Prohibitive to repair status.

On another note, I think the school board needs to slow down school closings. I bet you the other reason they aren't getting the funding they need, is because they keep closing schools down each year, and keep asking the province for money over and over again.

[king10]

Originally Posted by tyeman200

I do agree with you with how the funding is. But, at the same time, why would they bother keeping a school open, if they can't even get the funding to fix it up? I mean, that decision to keep it open happened 3 years ago, and no repairs have been made. The school is basically near Prohibitive to repair status.

On another note, I think the school board needs to slow down school closings. I bet you the other reason they aren't getting the funding they need, is because they keep closing schools down each year, and keep asking the province for money over and over again.

funding is provided per student. each student has a price

theyd get the same amount of money if they had 50 000 students between 100 schools as they would 50 000 students between 50 schools. obviously its easier to maintain 50 schools with the same amount of funds.

the province isn't going to throw more money at the school board because they keep schools open that are at 50% capacity. the province needs to balanace a huge deficit, they have a standard funding formula in place. its not subjective "hey this school board wants to keep tons of half empty schools open lets give them more money." .... Thats a sure way to go bankrupt.

[oldcoote]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

It's not all the boards fault. They depend on funding from the province for maintenance and if they don't get the funding needed they have no way of making up the shortfall. The funding formula's are flawed and need to be fixed.

Yeah, everyone passes the blame, but the kids are being told not to drink the fountain water.

[thistleclub]

Province won’t consult boards on school-closure rule changes
(Hamilton Mountain News, Richard Leitner, Jan 8 2015)

The Ministry of Education won’t be giving individual school boards a say on new guidelines that will allow school-closure studies to be done more quickly and with less citizen input.

Spokesperson Gary Wheeler said the ministry has already “conducted comprehensive consultations with many of our education partners” on the news rules, which cut the existing seven-month minimum for closure reviews to as little as two and a half months.

While the ministry hasn’t sounded out local boards, it did solicit input from school board, trustee and municipal associations, parent groups and closure-review experts, he said.

The ministry now expects to issue the new guidelines early this year, Wheeler said in an email response to inquiries by Hamilton Community News.

“It must be noted that these guidelines only set the minimum provincial requirements, and that each school board is expected to amend their own policy to be in compliance with the revised standards,” he said.

“At that point, school boards will have the opportunity to consult with their communities on changes to their local policies and procedures within the framework of the ministry’s new pupil accommodation review guideline.”


Read it full here.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

It's not all the boards fault. They depend on funding from the province for maintenance... The funding formula's are flawed and need to be fixed.

It just so happens that...

"As a former school board trustee, parent advocate and Parliamentary Assistant in education, access to public education has been one of the abiding themes of my political career....

We have, as a government made significant changes to the provincial funding formula. The funding formula is really an allocation formula through which the available education money flows to school boards.

We know there is more to do on the funding formula. The Premier has said that it is a work in progress. We have to be careful that we do not oversimplify the issues confronting us, and that whenever we talk about education funding, we are absolutely clear what we are talking about."

[thistleclub]

Niagara Hilton trumps new Ed Centre for principals’ powwow
(Hamilton Mountain News, Richard Leitner, Feb 5 2015)

The Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board says it spent $72,000 to send principals to a two-day professional development conference at the Niagara Falls Hilton because it didn’t want to “monopolize” meeting rooms at its new Education Centre.

Manny Figueiredo, executive superintendent of leadership and learning, said using the $31.6-million Education Centre also wouldn’t have allowed for the team-building that occurred at the overnight powwow, held Jan. 22-23 at the hotel, connected to Fallsview Casino by an indoor walkway.

He said the conference, titled Leading Complex Change, is an annual professional development event that is traditionally held in Niagara Falls and part of the employment contract for principals.

Among the justifications the board repeatedly offered for building the new Education Centre, located near Lime Ridge Mall, was that it could reduce expenses by accommodating staff training in one spot.

Figueiredo said the centre is fulfilling that role, but is booked solid and space would be “tight” for the principals’ conference because of the need for multiple breakout rooms.

“We don’t want to monopolize the (centre’s) time because we have a lot of small groups using the staff-development area,” he said, adding the overnight conference offers other benefits.

“There’s an informal aspect of people networking and socializing and getting to build that sense of community and wellness as well. That’s important for us.”


Read it in full here.

[king10]

Spending 72 grand on a conference in the fallls while they have a brand new building in the sprawling burbs. You wonder why their schools are falling apart. How busy can their new head office be on one weekend. And didn't they plan in the design for it to house events like this. Your telling me it was built for 32 million dollars and they built it too small?

Nothing says "community and wellness" like a night at the casino.

If they claim they didn't have space at their new multi million dollar headquarters why didn't they just book at the sheraton or staybridge downtown. Lots of meeting space. But you know, no casino...

[Dr Awesomesauce]

We need to hold the Board's feet to the fire given their track record in this city. I do worry, however, that among the general public there's a blurring of the line between teacher and administrator/ trustee. It's a shame so much ill-will has developed towards educators.

[ScreamingViking]

Another in a long line of decisions that take into account a limited and short-term perspective.