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  #2061  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 4:35 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
If they build this line they should be connecting it to the future Broadway line false creek flats section. It is the most logical connection in phase one as it would allow a Broadway line to street car line transfer and take people directly west along false creek before it re connects with the Broadway line at Arbutus. If the OMC yard would be located east of Main street (which seems logical) then you only have a couple hundred meters to get you to the Broadway line False creek station.
Yes if they are going to build the OMC yard in "the flats", it should have a station that connects to the M-Line extension there. However that makes for awkward routing.
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  #2062  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
How can you say that with confidence and without knowing the exact property lines?
The RoW is 66' wide generallly.

In this case it appears to be 15m. You can look it up on Vanmap.

The passing stations fit just fine, though. So the answer is an obvious yes, two tracks fit.
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  #2063  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 5:31 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
How can you say that with confidence and without knowing the exact property lines?
Because there already is a double tracked section

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  #2064  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 8:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
If they build this line they should be connecting it to the future Broadway line false creek flats section. It is the most logical connection in phase one as it would allow a Broadway line to street car line transfer and take people directly west along false creek before it re connects with the Broadway line at Arbutus. If the OMC yard would be located east of Main street (which seems logical) then you only have a couple hundred meters to get you to the Broadway line False creek station.
Good point,

Instead of looking at at transfer at Broadway & Quebec (really Main St.), the transfer should be at the future GNW/Emily Carr M-Line Station.
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  #2065  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2018, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
For the streetcar there's a couple of jogs to get from Cordova to Hastings to Georgia:


http://www.via-architecture.com/proj...ver-streetcar/


http://bids.vancouver.ca/bidopp/RFP/RFP-PS20171493.htm
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Phase 0 and the Arbutus Streetcar are the only two portions that should be built. Maybe phase 1 to Waterfront Station.

After that the other alignments are pretty terrible.
Phase 1 should definitely be built imho... A few ideas/thoughts:

Connecting the Transit Hubs: The 2 transit hubs (waterfront station seabus/skytrain/WCE/etc & the pacific central / main st skytrain) aren't very well connected. Currently this requires a 7-minute skytrain ride. By car/cab it's a gong show. This might

HSR Terminus: If/when the Vancouver-Seattle-Portland high speed rail comes to fruition, the likelihood for Pacific Central being the terminus is quite high. Pacific Central would need to rely on Main St Skytrain station for local connectivity but this streetcar line can also serve a local-transfer purpose.

Relieving Expo Line when Surrey Skytrain extension is added: With Surrey adding Skytrain (or whatever it ends up being) on the other end of the Expo line, it's good to relieve the shorter local distance rides on the downtown end of the line considering the capacity of the line won't significantly increase, yet ridership will increase from Surrey pouring more riders from that end. Having a second option for the Main St to Waterfront stretch would certainly help with capacity concerns for Expo.

NE Downtown Revitalization: Phase 1 could help to reactivate and invigorate the northeast quadrant of downtown, which is currently experiencing a revival with Amazon's huge office, the new office buildings, and ensure the connectivity is there when the bus routes aren't efficient. The streetcar lines could also activate retail along its corridor and actually reactivate the hastings stretch (and form the beginnings of a hastings line?)

I do think anything past waterfront / convention centre would be silly on potential ridership to stanley park if it goes on cordova. any ridership would have to be on georgia/alberni for the downtown stretch... but that stretch is already very well served by busses today.
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  #2066  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2018, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by lokyin View Post
Phase 1 should definitely be built imho... A few ideas/thoughts:

Connecting the Transit Hubs: The 2 transit hubs (waterfront station seabus/skytrain/WCE/etc & the pacific central / main st skytrain) aren't very well connected. Currently this requires a 7-minute skytrain ride. By car/cab it's a gong show. This might

HSR Terminus: If/when the Vancouver-Seattle-Portland high speed rail comes to fruition, the likelihood for Pacific Central being the terminus is quite high. Pacific Central would need to rely on Main St Skytrain station for local connectivity but this streetcar line can also serve a local-transfer purpose.

Relieving Expo Line when Surrey Skytrain extension is added: With Surrey adding Skytrain (or whatever it ends up being) on the other end of the Expo line, it's good to relieve the shorter local distance rides on the downtown end of the line considering the capacity of the line won't significantly increase, yet ridership will increase from Surrey pouring more riders from that end. Having a second option for the Main St to Waterfront stretch would certainly help with capacity concerns for Expo.

NE Downtown Revitalization: Phase 1 could help to reactivate and invigorate the northeast quadrant of downtown, which is currently experiencing a revival with Amazon's huge office, the new office buildings, and ensure the connectivity is there when the bus routes aren't efficient. The streetcar lines could also activate retail along its corridor and actually reactivate the hastings stretch (and form the beginnings of a hastings line?)

I do think anything past waterfront / convention centre would be silly on potential ridership to stanley park if it goes on cordova. any ridership would have to be on georgia/alberni for the downtown stretch... but that stretch is already very well served by busses today.
I don't agree:
1. Going by Car on the same route takes 8 minutes. I'd assume a similar time for LRT, so maybe 7 minutes. It wouldn't save any time.

2. An HSR terminal can be located in Waterfront. The Strathcona Spur is rarely used, and after a tunnel is built to North Van, the Seabus terminal will become a 3rd wheel (it can be used for passenger ferries, but we all know how economical those were- without good transit services in Nanaimo, it's probably a dead idea going forwards).

This would open up space for a HSR terminal in Waterfront. Parking is a bigger issue. Would a 7-floor parkade suffice?

3. 'Local service'? You mean only Kits/Granville Island and Mt. Pleasant. Also, you can transfer onto the Canada Line from the LRT, not just Expo, thus, sharing the load.

4. I'd wait for the Hastings Subway.

Also, a side note, it'd be nice if the streetcar could at least connect to the Millennium Line via the flats. Would a tunnel under Olympic Village and Quebec St be worth it cost-wise?
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  #2067  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2018, 6:21 AM
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Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
I don't agree:
1. Going by Car on the same route takes 8 minutes. I'd assume a similar time for LRT, so maybe 7 minutes. It wouldn't save any time.

2. An HSR terminal can be located in Waterfront. The Strathcona Spur is rarely used, and after a tunnel is built to North Van, the Seabus terminal will become a 3rd wheel (it can be used for passenger ferries, but we all know how economical those were- without good transit services in Nanaimo, it's probably a dead idea going forwards).

This would open up space for a HSR terminal in Waterfront. Parking is a bigger issue. Would a 7-floor parkade suffice?

3. 'Local service'? You mean only Kits/Granville Island and Mt. Pleasant. Also, you can transfer onto the Canada Line from the LRT, not just Expo, thus, sharing the load.

4. I'd wait for the Hastings Subway.

Also, a side note, it'd be nice if the streetcar could at least connect to the Millennium Line via the flats. Would a tunnel under Olympic Village and Quebec St be worth it cost-wise?
1) Definitely not a lot of car converts there. Waterfront-Science World ridership's probably going to come from Gastown/Chinatown pedestrians, tourists and bus passengers... maybe a field trip or two.

2) The same Strathcona spur that's getting constant freight traffic, that feeds into the equally-busy Waterfront spur? As it is, the WCE's limited to peak hours because of such freight.

Waterfront itself can already be crowded even with just two SkyTrain lines. Not trying to be rude, just pointing out that at least Pacific Central's fully dedicated to handling passenger trains.

3) Yeah, it'd be more of a "circle" line than a relief line.

4) A tunnel would be nice in the far future, if it's even possible - the NEFC engineers got into Hepner's Kool-Aid stash and want the entire Quebec stretch to operate in mixed traffic. Gotta work on that first.
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  #2068  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2018, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
1) Definitely not a lot of car converts there. Waterfront-Science World ridership's probably going to come from Gastown/Chinatown pedestrians, tourists and bus passengers... maybe a field trip or two.

2) The same Strathcona spur that's getting constant freight traffic, that feeds into the equally-busy Waterfront spur? As it is, the WCE's limited to peak hours because of such freight.

Waterfront itself can already be crowded even with just two SkyTrain lines. Not trying to be rude, just pointing out that at least Pacific Central's fully dedicated to handling passenger trains.

3) Yeah, it'd be more of a "circle" line than a relief line.

4) A tunnel would be nice in the far future, if it's even possible - the NEFC engineers got into Hepner's Kool-Aid stash and want the entire Quebec stretch to operate in mixed traffic. Gotta work on that first.
My point was that you said that was an improvement over taking the Skytrain. It's not, and it's only an improvement if you were already taking the Streetcar. My statement of how long a car takes was a rough estimation of how long a streetcar to get there.

Gastown and Chinatown would be serviced better by a Hastings Subway.

2. Ok, I guess I was a bit wrong with that part.
The WCE is delayed by freight traffic overall. I was referring to the Waterfront Station track area itself, which is less crowded.

Even if it's built in Pacific Central, most of those people are going to still take Skytrain, not LRT. That's my main point.

3. Yes, which is why it's not really a big deal if it never gets built. I can see the use if the streetcar on Phase 1 if it's exceptionally popular, which I'm skeptical of. The Olympic Line had 0.55 M boardings, but that's partially because of the Olympics, and partially out of novelty. The 16 has 7.2 M boardings per year.



I feel like the Phase 1-3 are just even more of 'eh, maybe, one day' proposals on top an already 'eh, maybe one day' proposal.
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  #2069  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2018, 10:51 PM
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My thoughts:

- I would like the Pacific and Stanley park extensions to connect eventually to make a loop around the west-end. The west-end will need some sort of a transit strategy to address capacity. Now when I say transit strategy I'm not necessarily screaming for LRT...

- The only "relief" that any of these lines will actually produce relief for is the Canada line via the Arbutus LRT IMO. This LRT is anything but rapid transit; rather it would be a means to address capacity (which is a legit enough reason to build transit).

- Overall I do like the design but it really brings into question for me whether or not LRT/Streetcars (or whatever you want to call it) would be the right choice to address capacity. LRT makes sense here but buses and BRT systems have much more flexibility.
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  #2070  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2018, 6:22 AM
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Originally Posted by scryer View Post
My thoughts:

- I would like the Pacific and Stanley park extensions to connect eventually to make a loop around the west-end. The west-end will need some sort of a transit strategy to address capacity. Now when I say transit strategy I'm not necessarily screaming for LRT...

- The only "relief" that any of these lines will actually produce relief for is the Canada line via the Arbutus LRT IMO. This LRT is anything but rapid transit; rather it would be a means to address capacity (which is a legit enough reason to build transit).

- Overall I do like the design but it really brings into question for me whether or not LRT/Streetcars (or whatever you want to call it) would be the right choice to address capacity. LRT makes sense here but buses and BRT systems have much more flexibility.
Would you go on a route that takes 7-10 minutes longer to avoid a crowded train?
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  #2071  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2018, 6:26 AM
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People will hop onboard a streetcar vs a bus, busses just have a loser cruiser rap whereas streetcars don't. Streetcars are not that great for commuting but for casual trips they are fine.
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  #2072  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2018, 8:29 AM
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(caution: incoming wall of text)

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Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
My point was that you said that was an improvement over taking the Skytrain. It's not, and it's only an improvement if you were already taking the Streetcar. My statement of how long a car takes was a rough estimation of how long a streetcar to get there.

Gastown and Chinatown would be serviced better by a Hastings Subway.

2. Ok, I guess I was a bit wrong with that part.
The WCE is delayed by freight traffic overall. I was referring to the Waterfront Station track area itself, which is less crowded.

Even if it's built in Pacific Central, most of those people are going to still take Skytrain, not LRT. That's my main point.

3. Yes, which is why it's not really a big deal if it never gets built. I can see the use if the streetcar on Phase 1 if it's exceptionally popular, which I'm skeptical of. The Olympic Line had 0.55 M boardings, but that's partially because of the Olympics, and partially out of novelty. The 16 has 7.2 M boardings per year.



I feel like the Phase 1-3 are just even more of 'eh, maybe, one day' proposals on top an already 'eh, maybe one day' proposal.
You've got me confused with lokyin, methinks. I'm of the opinion that even if it's not faster than the Expo, it's more direct and covers a different area.

A Hastings subway would be E-W; nothing wrong with that, but a N-S route for that part of downtown is needed as well.

2) Even if they need to access the in-betweens (False Creek, NEFC, Chinatown, etc) that SkyTrain can't reach? Again, this time, the streetcar's not attempting to duplicate or replace SkyTrain, but extend it - we're taking the big Expo-Millennium-Canada triangle and subdividing it into smaller triangles.

3) Come on, nobody's suggesting any more than Phase 1 right now!

The Olympic Line also did not have Arbutus-Broadway on one end, nor Main Street on the other. The 50 is more or less an inversion of the streetcar route, and it gets 1.6M despite 15-minute peak frequencies; add the 16, and people from the neighbourhoods above, and that's a relatively solid route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
Would you go on a route that takes 7-10 minutes longer to avoid a crowded train?
If I'm starting from Arbutus or further west and I'm not in a rush, why not?

Then there's people in Marpole and Kerrisdale and Kitsilano who may be riding the tram instead of transferring to a bus and then the Canada Line. More options means less crowding.
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  #2073  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2018, 8:30 AM
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Originally Posted by scryer View Post
- I would like the Pacific and Stanley park extensions to connect eventually to make a loop around the west-end. The west-end will need some sort of a transit strategy to address capacity. Now when I say transit strategy I'm not necessarily screaming for LRT...
No kidding - any downtown streetcar loop is screwed without SkyTrain through the West End to Stanley Park/West Van. After it happens though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by scryer View Post
- Overall I do like the design but it really brings into question for me whether or not LRT/Streetcars (or whatever you want to call it) would be the right choice to address capacity. LRT makes sense here but buses and BRT systems have much more flexibility.
Phase 1? Yeah, they'd have to close off Quebec and Water/Cordova to make it work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
People will hop onboard a streetcar vs a bus, busses just have a loser cruiser rap whereas streetcars don't. Streetcars are not that great for commuting but for casual trips they are fine.
Many of said "loser cruisers" currently have more ridership than ten American streetcars put together. Rail bias seems more of a lazy catch-all for a bunch of other factors that buses can do just fine.
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  #2074  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2018, 6:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
(caution: incoming wall of text)



You've got me confused with lokyin, methinks. I'm of the opinion that even if it's not faster than the Expo, it's more direct and covers a different area.

A Hastings subway would be E-W; nothing wrong with that, but a N-S route for that part of downtown is needed as well.

2) Even if they need to access the in-betweens (False Creek, NEFC, Chinatown, etc) that SkyTrain can't reach? Again, this time, the streetcar's not attempting to duplicate or replace SkyTrain, but extend it - we're taking the big Expo-Millennium-Canada triangle and subdividing it into smaller triangles.

3) Come on, nobody's suggesting any more than Phase 1 right now!

The Olympic Line also did not have Arbutus-Broadway on one end, nor Main Street on the other. The 50 is more or less an inversion of the streetcar route, and it gets 1.6M despite 15-minute peak frequencies; add the 16, and people from the neighbourhoods above, and that's a relatively solid route.



If I'm starting from Arbutus or further west and I'm not in a rush, why not?

Then there's people in Marpole and Kerrisdale and Kitsilano who may be riding the tram instead of transferring to a bus and then the Canada Line. More options means less crowding.

Ok.

I mean, that's still lower than the Surrey LRT was supposed to get towards 2041, so

The COV is proposing Phases 2 and 3

It's not a horrible idea, as I said earlier. But it's not something that should be straddled on Translink, because it's pretty down the line of importance in terms of priorities.


As far as I know, the greenway is supposed to pave over the rail tracks anyways. An electric BRT fleet might work here too, potentially better.
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  #2075  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2018, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
No kidding - any downtown streetcar loop is screwed without SkyTrain through the West End to Stanley Park/West Van. After it happens though...



Phase 1? Yeah, they'd have to close off Quebec and Water/Cordova to make it work.



Many of said "loser cruisers" currently have more ridership than ten American streetcars put together. Rail bias seems more of a lazy catch-all for a bunch of other factors that buses can do just fine.
i think busses would be better over a streetcar, either do busses or grade separated screw the streetcars
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  #2076  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2018, 1:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
i think busses would be better over a streetcar, either do busses or grade separated screw the streetcars
Honestly I am kind of feeling that too.


Quote:
Would you go on a route that takes 7-10 minutes longer to avoid a crowded train?
It depends on the destination of the passengers. I hate suggest a study, but it could be worth it here. But yeah, that's another reason why I think that the Arbutus greenway could be just an excellent BRT system.
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  #2077  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2018, 6:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
i think busses would be better over a streetcar, either do busses or grade separated screw the streetcars
Quote:
Originally Posted by scryer View Post
It depends on the destination of the passengers. I hate suggest a study, but it could be worth it here. But yeah, that's another reason why I think that the Arbutus greenway could be just an excellent BRT system.
Breach of contract aside, there doesn't really seem to be that much of a cost advantage for an Arbutus busway.
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  #2078  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2018, 6:50 AM
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Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
Ok.

I mean, that's still lower than the Surrey LRT was supposed to get towards 2041, so

The COV is proposing Phases 2 and 3

It's not a horrible idea, as I said earlier. But it's not something that should be straddled on Translink, because it's pretty down the line of importance in terms of priorities.
I'll say it again: 15-minute frequency, inverted route - not much potential ridership along Granville Bridge. Add all three SkyTrain lines and some very high-traffic neighbourhoods, ridership doubles. Make it run every five minutes and it quadruples.

The City is dreaming out loud, and the rest of us are figuring out which parts could actually work. I doubt anybody takes Phases 2 or 3 any more seriously than Surrey First's pre-election map.

I for one definitely wouldn't mind the City building it and handing it over to TransLink later... only problem is that they'd probably do that stupid Thach Weave near Broadway instead of tunneling it.
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  #2079  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2018, 7:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Breach of contract aside, there doesn't really seem to be that much of a cost advantage for an Arbutus busway.
The rails have already been paved over on the Greenway.

Breach of Contract?
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  #2080  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2018, 8:07 AM
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Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
The rails have already been paved over on the Greenway.

Breach of Contract?
The Greenway's not like Broadway or SoF where they'd be ripping the road up, moving all the pipes and wires, laying rail and then paving a new road. Laying rail on its own is more or less the same price as a lane of asphalt.

When Vancouver bought the corridor off CP, part of the agreement was that there'd be a tram line.
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