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  #121  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2018, 4:47 AM
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And now, for a very different alternate history scenario.

Siberian tigers came close to, but did not cross the Bering land bridge during the last ice age.

According to this book:

"Curiously, the tiger did not follow the great herds across the land bridge called Beringia during the Pleistocene exchange of fauna between Eurasia and North America, possibly because — despite its tolerance of Siberian winters down to — 40°F — it could not hibernate like the brown bear and therefore retreated with the onset of the icebound winter, or because the tiger niche in North America had been partially occupied by other cats, including lynx, mountain lion, cheetah, and "saber-toothed tiger."

However, late Pleistocene fossils identified as tigers have turned up in eastern Beringia, and so, perhaps, it trailed the elk on summer journeys as far as west Alaska but died out before a breeding population became established. No tiger fossils have turned up in the Americas, nor did the tiger spread west into Europe, perhaps because of competition with the closely related lion".


Source: https://books.google.com/books/about...ringia&f=false

What if they did, and Canada ended up having tigers?




Last edited by Capsicum; Jan 17, 2018 at 5:04 AM.
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  #122  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2018, 1:04 AM
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Owen Sound (pop. 20,000) feels like it was built under the expectation that it would emerge as a much bigger city, a sizable industrial center. What if it had "taken off." A Canadian "Green Bay" perhaps?
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  #123  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2018, 3:31 PM
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Owen sound indeed always feels like it should be bigger than it is. Even just being around 100k could really change the layout of Ontario - there aren't really any major population centres in that stretch of the province.
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  #124  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2018, 5:25 PM
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I've often thought that weather played an important role in deciding which cities in Southern and Central Ontario developed more over the last century. For example, Owen Sound is in a snowbelt region that gets significant dumps of snow at certain times of the year. Meanwhile, Toronto appears to be ideally situated in one of the few spots in the region that is rarely impacted from lake effect snow (complete luck of geography). I travel back and forth between Toronto and Barrie during the winter ski season, and I'm often amazed at the difference in snow and temperatures over the course of a two-hour drive. It could be a mere coincidence, but I can't help but wonder if earlier settlers in Ontario noticed the difference too, and gradually just moved and resettled over time to the area around Toronto.
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  #125  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2018, 6:18 PM
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I've often thought that weather played an important role in deciding which cities in Southern and Central Ontario developed more over the last century. For example, Owen Sound is in a snowbelt region that gets significant dumps of snow at certain times of the year. Meanwhile, Toronto appears to be ideally situated in one of the few spots in the region that is rarely impacted from lake effect snow (complete luck of geography). I travel back and forth between Toronto and Barrie during the winter ski season, and I'm often amazed at the difference in snow and temperatures over the course of a two-hour drive. It could be a mere coincidence, but I can't help but wonder if earlier settlers in Ontario noticed the difference too, and gradually just moved and resettled over time to the area around Toronto.
But then again, upstate NY cities like Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse are in a snowbelt zone, and yet they grew large populations (in the 20th century) -- in the hundreds of thousands. Not so much now by comparison to other big cities, obviously but the fact that they were bustling places back in their day shows that weather was not an impediment (even though in the US there are a much better variety of climates overall) back in their boom period.
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  #126  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2018, 6:24 PM
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Canadian history could have been considerably different if there had been a few larger cities in mid and northern Ontario, that's for sure.........

The Georgian Bay shore in particular should have been much more populated.
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  #127  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2018, 6:44 PM
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What factors could have led to the other lake shore (of Huron and Superior) regions of the province of Ontario be more populated, so that at the very least they would have six-digit rather than 5-digit population numbers?

Let's say have places like Owen Sound, or even Sault Ste. Marie reach the six digits. Thunder Bay already does, but most other Lake Huron and Superior cities don't approach its population much. As mentioned by Docere, stateside, Green Bay, Wisconsin, on Lake Michigan is a pretty big city (Thunder Bay sized) and is roughly about as far north as Owen Sound.
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  #128  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2018, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Canadian history could have been considerably different if there had been a few larger cities in mid and northern Ontario, that's for sure.........

The Georgian Bay shore in particular should have been much more populated.
A more populated mid and northern Ontario would also have some effect on Canada's population distribution overall, all else being equal, to keep the population center of Canada in the province, rather than shifting west assuming in that timeline, western Canada doesn't also have a disproportionately greater boom. Perhaps Ontario would be half of Canada's population rather than a bit under 40%, if several more mid-sized cities popped up.

Also, depending on where the population is drawn from also (are they from more settlers, domestic migrations or later immigrants), it may impact the French-English balance of Canada. If there are more Franco-Ontarians in mid and northern Ontario, it may help the French language survive more, and larger Franco-Ontarian communities or bilingual areas would exist and Ontario might have more French speakers. On the other hand, if Ontario booms in population but its growth is mostly Anglo (either from Anglophone settlers and their descendants, or later immigrants that speak English), then a larger Ontario relative to Quebec might tip the balance the other way.
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  #129  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2018, 4:07 AM
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But then again, upstate NY cities like Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse are in a snowbelt zone, and yet they grew large populations (in the 20th century) -- in the hundreds of thousands. Not so much now by comparison to other big cities, obviously but the fact that they were bustling places back in their day shows that weather was not an impediment (even though in the US there are a much better variety of climates overall) back in their boom period.
I'm not sure where you're coming from on this... Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse have been in a serious decline compared to cities like Toronto, which would seem to add credence to my point about snowbelt cities versus non-snowbelt cities in this region. For example, Buffalo came to prominence at the end of the 19th century primarily due to the Erie Canal and the associated manufacturing, but once that advantage began to wane, wealthy businesspeople wasted little time in choosing to pull up stakes and move to other cities outside of this major snowbelt zone, and it didn't take long for the jobs and prosperity to move out right along with them.
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  #130  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2018, 4:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post

What if they did, and Canada ended up having tigers?

Giant Tiger would have been the ruling shitty discount chain right from the beginning. We would have been spared Fields, Stedman's V&S, Biway, and the Bargain! Shop.



Something about the bargain! shop makes me want to puke.

This place too. Smells like Moth Balls:

pembinatoday

check out Fields' circa 1998 website.
http://www.fields.ca/
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  #131  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2018, 4:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CoffeeBreak View Post
I'm not sure where you're coming from on this... Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse have been in a serious decline compared to cities like Toronto, which would seem to add credence to my point about snowbelt cities versus non-snowbelt cities in this region. For example, Buffalo came to prominence at the end of the 19th century primarily due to the Erie Canal and the associated manufacturing, but once that advantage began to wane, wealthy businesspeople wasted little time in choosing to pull up stakes and move to other cities outside of this major snowbelt zone, and it didn't take long for the jobs and prosperity to move out right along with them.


Okay, maybe the upstate New York cities like Buffalo and Rochester aren't a good example. But Quebec City is one of the snowiest in the world too and is still doing fine (obviously not growing as much as say the major destinations for immigration or domestic migration) just growing slowly, at least not declining like the upstate NY cities. St. John's is snowier still and while not growing super fast or anything, again, is not declining.

So, St. John's and Quebec City show that you can still have cities with 6-digit populations, not only ones with tens of thousands like Owen Sound.

Also, the top two snowiest big cities are in northern Japan, and a quick googling shows one is almost 2 million, and the other (the top snowiest) is in the 200, 000-something range. Obviously, Japan isn't comparable to Canada since its population is so much larger to start with, but that goes to show you can have a snowy big city.


Top 10 snowiest major cities in the world. (According to Wikipedia, Owen Sound is at 330 cm or 3.3 m, but it's not a "major city").

Source:
https://www.accuweather.com/en/weath...ies-a/23760437

1. Aomori, Japan (7.92m)
2. Sapporo, Japan (4.85m)
3. Toyama, Japan (3.63m)
4. St John's, Canada (3.32m)
5. Syracuse, US (3.15m)
= Quebec City, Canada (3.15m)
7. Saguenay, Canada (3.12m)
8. Akita, Japan (2.72m)
9. Rochester, US (2.51m)
10. Buffalo, US (2.41m)
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  #132  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2018, 4:28 AM
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Trudeau never threatened U.S. interests - had Petro Canada been established by nationalizing U.S. oil companies, he might have been seen differently. The situation in Quebec at that time would also likely have discouraged any thought of destabilizing activities, no matter how much Trudeau may have been disliked by the powers that be.
Petro-Canada acquired two American owned companies while it was a SOE: Pacific Petroleum and ARCO Canada. The American oil and gas industry and American government likely didnt care because the geniuses, mainly Maurice Strong and John Raulston Saul, massively overpaid for assets and subsequently ran them into the ground.
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  #133  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2018, 3:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Owen Sound (pop. 20,000) feels like it was built under the expectation that it would emerge as a much bigger city, a sizable industrial center. What if it had "taken off." A Canadian "Green Bay" perhaps?
I got the same impression about Cornwall.
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  #134  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2018, 3:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
Petro-Canada acquired two American owned companies while it was a SOE: Pacific Petroleum and ARCO Canada. The American oil and gas industry and American government likely didnt care because the geniuses, mainly Maurice Strong and John Raulston Saul, massively overpaid for assets and subsequently ran them into the ground.
Their eastern gas stations were a result of the acquisition of Sunoco (Sun Oil Co.) from what I remember -- or maybe they were just bought from Sunoco.

Their western stations were mostly Pacific Petroleum (Pacific 66) stations, a Canadian brand that was related to Phillips Petroleum (Phillips 66) in the US.
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  #135  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2018, 5:36 AM
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Their eastern gas stations were a result of the acquisition of Sunoco (Sun Oil Co.) from what I remember -- or maybe they were just bought from Sunoco.

Their western stations were mostly Pacific Petroleum (Pacific 66) stations, a Canadian brand that was related to Phillips Petroleum (Phillips 66) in the US.
I only considered upstream assets.

For downstream, at least some Sunoco stations stayed inder the ownership of Suncor, Sun Oil’s one-time Canadian subsidiary. Not sure if the Feds bought some of them. PetroCan also acquired downstream assets from Gulf, BP and Fina. The federal government helped Olympia York’s acquisition of Gulf’s upstream operations which, par for the course, was another boondoggle. Government money is always the dumbest money. Too bad the Harper government didn’t allow more Chinese SOE acquisitions. CNOC paid USD 15B for the steaming pile known as Nexen.
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  #136  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 12:38 AM
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It's interesting to note that Owen Sound had a similar population to Berlin (Kitchener) in 1901 (around 9,000).
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  #137  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2018, 5:32 AM
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Come to think of it, it's interesting to ponder the idea of Berlin/Kitchener emerging as the "Canadian Milwaukee" (i.e. a German immigrant city). Urban German immigrants were never really a thing in Canada. Kitchener reached 30,000 in 1931 (and was still 55% German ancestry) but it didn't really take off until after WWII when it ceased to have a German majority.

19th century immigration from Germany in Canada was modest and very rural and peaked in the 1850s. German immigration to the US continued after the unification of Germany and in fact peaked in the 1880s.
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  #138  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 5:32 AM
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I wonder how things might be different for Manitoba had it's eastern boundary be set just east of Thunder Bay as originally proposed under the MacDonald administration.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2095/2...bc2a1320_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2570/3...927ea29b_b.jpg

Under the MacDonald years, the area lying to the west of and including what is now Thunder Bay was to be transferred to Manitoba. It was believed that Upper and Lower Canada's definite western boundary lie directly north of the confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers, as interpreted by the Quebec Act. Unfortunately (for Manitoba), Mackenzie was elected into office before a decision was finalized, and Mackenzie appointed a board of arbitrators to resolve the dispute. This board consisted entirely of members sympathetic to Ontario and no representatives from Manitoba. Of course the boundary was set in Ontario's favour. However, when MacDonald was re-elected he vetoed the decision of the board and the boundaries of Manitoba were expanded in 1881 so that Thunder Bay was located just inside Manitoba. Despite being awarded to Manitoba, Ontario did not recognize the claim and also attempted to exert control of the territory. In 1884, the Privy Council decided that the decision made by the pro-Ontario board of arbitrators should be recognized, and thus Ontario was expanded to Lake of the Woods. Seeing that this region is located closer to Winnipeg than to Toronto, and that every now and then you hear of proposals to create a province of "Mantario", it seems that this region should have remained part of Manitoba.

Last edited by balletomane; Apr 1, 2018 at 11:04 AM.
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  #139  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 7:10 PM
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Would that have made the Lakehead the "gateway to the west"?
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  #140  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 7:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
And now, for a very different alternate history scenario.

Siberian tigers came close to, but did not cross the Bering land bridge during the last ice age.

According to this book:

"Curiously, the tiger did not follow the great herds across the land bridge called Beringia during the Pleistocene exchange of fauna between Eurasia and North America, possibly because — despite its tolerance of Siberian winters down to — 40°F — it could not hibernate like the brown bear and therefore retreated with the onset of the icebound winter, or because the tiger niche in North America had been partially occupied by other cats, including lynx, mountain lion, cheetah, and "saber-toothed tiger."

However, late Pleistocene fossils identified as tigers have turned up in eastern Beringia, and so, perhaps, it trailed the elk on summer journeys as far as west Alaska but died out before a breeding population became established. No tiger fossils have turned up in the Americas, nor did the tiger spread west into Europe, perhaps because of competition with the closely related lion".


Source: https://books.google.com/books/about...ringia&f=false

What if they did, and Canada ended up having tigers?



During the late Pleistocene, the Beringian land bridge was dominated by steppe flora and fauna. The largest predators were the cave lion (similar in size to Siberian tigers and thought to live in prides like modern lions); the dirk toothed cat Homotherium (about the size of a modern lion and solitary - no match for a large tiger but adopted for longer distance running to chase down prey on the steppe); the terrifying short faced bear (long distance runner and ultimate scavenger) as well as brown bears and wolves larger on average than modern variants and adopted to hunt megafauna.

Tigers are essentially a forest species, this is really what kept them out as there's never been a continuous band of highly productive forest habitat spanning the land bridge. Even if a thin forest band did span the bridge from time to time during the ice ages, it wasn't productive enough to support tigers. Think of the vast swaths of Siberian boreal, it has no tigers because it cannot support a high enough prey density. A tiger would starve wandering around trying to catch the deer that are few and far between in this vast but relatively poor habitat. They are not wolves which are able to run for hours through heavy snow or supplement their diets with rodents and vegetation.
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