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  #16481  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by shreddog View Post
Sigh - In 1985 I worked for a month helping some native home construction installation in Rocky Bay. The houses had been manufactured somewhere in southern Ontario to INAC standards, incl huge patio deck glass doors that lead to nowhere and let so much heat in the in the winter

And FWIW, the native HS kids also came up with some designs to reflect their traditions and living requirements. Then, just like now, the remote government knows better.
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
When it comes to housing, why are they building southern-style houses in New Brunswick and shipping them up to the north on barges? Did you know native high school and college students came up with a design for a modular communal house that would cost less and better reflect the ways native people live together? No, you just hear "native housing" and bitch about it. The high schools around here actually have an annual competition to design a low cost housing design but nothing ever comes of that other than the usual crap that high school contests come with.
That's...

Would be so easy to fix, and it's been going on since at least the 1980s!
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  #16482  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 9:52 PM
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But on the other hand, how do you make it up to an entire group of people when you stole their land
And who did they steal it from? Tribes conquered other tribes and the British were the last man standing. Zero sympathy from me, I'm just wondering where my compensation is from the potato famine.
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  #16483  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 10:08 PM
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^Go seek redress from the United Kingdom.

What a ridiculous and completely callous counter argument.
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  #16484  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 10:36 PM
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That's...

Would be so easy to fix, and it's been going on since at least the 1980s!
It's not that easy.

Let me first explain that I have probably a decade of experience designing, and inspecting FN housing in MB and NWO for both CMHC and INAC.

Houses that are provided to any FN under government based funding need to meet the same criteria as a house built anywhere else in Canada. The "inferior housing" is an absolute myth, at least within the last decade I have been involved. In fact, for CMHC, houses are required to inspected no fewer that 6 times over the course of the build. Few, if any houses in Canada get that same treatment.

The problem with FN housing generally (but not always) relates to overcrowding, lack of maintenance and abuse/vandalism.

From my experience, no matter what the family size a house on a FN is originally designed to take (or interior layout for that matter), you end up with several more people inside the house. Now, this doesn't seem like a big deal, but the enemy to any modern house is moisture, and more people equal more moisture. This leads to mold and a whole host of other problems.

The lack of maintenance is a big problem, and one that is not easy to rectify, especially considering few people "own" houses on FN's, so like any other tenant, they don't fix things that go wrong - they wait for the maintenance people to come and repair things. This goes from simple things such as replacing light bulbs, all the way up to more serious repairs.

Abuse/vandalism is self explanatory. But its a HUGE problem. You cannot fault builders, designers, government, etc. etc. when vandalism occurs to the degree it happens on FN's. It would be the exception, and not the rule for a typical house on a FN to NOT require new windows, doors, kitchen cabinets, bathroom gut and reno after only 5 years.

The living conditions on FN's is generally horrible, and something that needs to improve - but the quality of housing that is provided, is, in my experience not the biggest issue. It's only the easiest, and least "uncomfortable" one for people to bring up.
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  #16485  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 10:41 PM
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What a ridiculous and completely callous counter argument.
Why?
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  #16486  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
Here is another question for you guys:

Let's assume native people are inherently lazy. This is a comment I've heard racist people make many times, here and in real life.

By which method should native people stop being lazy? How will this goal be reached? How will the method used to reach it be enforced? What will the "de-lazying" of native people look like?

White people aren't going into native communities and burning down their community centers, neglecting their water systems and filling their homes with mould. So, how do native communities stop these problems from happening? What does the native anti-arson campaign have to do? How will they pay for that campaign? What should First Nations leaders do about neglected water systems? Which approach should First Nations communities take to tackle their housing crises (capacity, access, and quality)? In what ways are First Nations funds being mismanaged, and how should First Nations change their funding model to be less susceptible to this mismanagement? What should First Nations governance look like?

Native people across Canada have answered all these questions and more and gotten nowhere with them with any federal or provincial government. Now it's your turn to shout answers into the uncaring void! I look forward to your responses and will grade them all using cartoon representations of vegetables because I'm an annoying mix of serious and satire and you can never tell which is which.
What seems to be neglected by the media and first nations all the time is the relative success and much better living standards of native americans in the U.S compared to that in Canada. Living here in Winnipeg and watching news everyday from North Dakota you rarely if ever see the vast poverty, crime problems and lack of hope that you see just 2 hours north in Manitoba everyday. The bureaucratic way Canada and the Provinces have been pouring billions into Indian Affairs or whatever the new politically correct name of the dept. is has shown zero improvement for aboriginals over the past 45 years things are actually worse in some ways.

In my opinion the biggest change that would need to take place is having land near major metropolitan areas remade as urban reserves for first nations people. It means that the feds and provinces stop pouring billions every year into remote reserves that have no opportunities whatsoever in them because they are the Canadian version of Siberia. It also means first nations realizing it makes no sense having their people living forever on reserves in the middle of no where with no chance of a better life.

The second major change is that aboriginal families and leaders need to understand and be upfront that fathers play a major role in a better outcome for children and that families need to realize having 10 kids by the time you are 22 years old and a teenage single mom with no high school is not a path they should be taking in life.
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  #16487  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 12:24 AM
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First off, thanks drew for an interesting post and sharing your own first hand experience of this with us.

A few thoughts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
Houses that are provided to any FN under government based funding need to meet the same criteria as a house built anywhere else in Canada.
Isn't that a problem that could be fixed pretty easily? The case of those useless large patio doors given earlier, for example, shows how "built exactly to the same Southern Canada standards as all other dwellings intended for the south" is stupid.


Quote:
Abuse/vandalism is self explanatory. But its a HUGE problem. You cannot fault builders, designers, government, etc. etc. when vandalism occurs to the degree it happens on FN's. It would be the exception, and not the rule for a typical house on a FN to NOT require new windows, doors, kitchen cabinets, bathroom gut and reno after only 5 years.
It could be built to sturdier standards with the same budget if we cut somewhere else, though. If all windows need to be replaced every 5 years, let's install much less easy to break windows, but less of them so that it costs the same in the end.

Same with the bathroom and kitchen. All those fixtures can be made much more sturdy than the in average Southern Canada dwelling, if needed (and you seem to be very positive that it's the case). It might be less fancy and uglier, but that's a reasonable trade off.
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  #16488  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
let's install much less easy to break windows, but less of them so that it costs the same in the end.
I have a radical concept, why not just not break windows.
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  #16489  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 3:34 AM
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Originally Posted by thurmas View Post
What seems to be neglected by the media and first nations all the time is the relative success and much better living standards of native americans in the U.S compared to that in Canada. Living here in Winnipeg and watching news everyday from North Dakota you rarely if ever see the vast poverty, crime problems and lack of hope that you see just 2 hours north in Manitoba everyday. The bureaucratic way Canada and the Provinces have been pouring billions into Indian Affairs or whatever the new politically correct name of the dept. is has shown zero improvement for aboriginals over the past 45 years things are actually worse in some ways.

In my opinion the biggest change that would need to take place is having land near major metropolitan areas remade as urban reserves for first nations people. It means that the feds and provinces stop pouring billions every year into remote reserves that have no opportunities whatsoever in them because they are the Canadian version of Siberia. It also means first nations realizing it makes no sense having their people living forever on reserves in the middle of no where with no chance of a better life.

The second major change is that aboriginal families and leaders need to understand and be upfront that fathers play a major role in a better outcome for children and that families need to realize having 10 kids by the time you are 22 years old and a teenage single mom with no high school is not a path they should be taking in life.

Poorest places in the United States, by Median HH income:

1) Blackwater, Arizona (72.1% Native) Median HH income: $9,491
3) Wolf Point, Montana (50.5% Native) Median HH income: $12,361
18) Cibecue, Arizona (95.2% Native) Median HH income: $15,208
Wikipedia
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  #16490  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 3:47 AM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
I have a radical concept, why not just not break windows.
Your posts on this have been unduly harsh and knee-jerkish, but this is actually a pretty good question.

I've been a homeowner for about 25 years. I'll let people take a wild guess at how many broken windows I've had to replace.
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  #16491  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 3:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
^Go seek redress from the United Kingdom.

What a ridiculous and completely callous counter argument.
Agreed. I’m finding lots of ridiculously callous arguments being flung around here lately.
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  #16492  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 3:55 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
First off, thanks drew for an interesting post and sharing your own first hand experience of this with us.

A few thoughts:



Isn't that a problem that could be fixed pretty easily? The case of those useless large patio doors given earlier, for example, shows how "built exactly to the same Southern Canada standards as all other dwellings intended for the south" is stupid.




It could be built to sturdier standards with the same budget if we cut somewhere else, though. If all windows need to be replaced every 5 years, let's install much less easy to break windows, but less of them so that it costs the same in the end.

Same with the bathroom and kitchen. All those fixtures can be made much more sturdy than the in average Southern Canada dwelling, if needed (and you seem to be very positive that it's the case). It might be less fancy and uglier, but that's a reasonable trade off.
While I understand that some things could be improved (such as in the case of the patio windows), a lot of these complaints to me sound a lot like "People-Who-Are-Fortunate-To-Get-Free-Housing Problems".
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  #16493  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 3:56 AM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Why?
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  #16494  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 4:25 AM
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FFS I didn’t even want to respond to such ignorant comments but I happened to see a special about a month ago on the news about architecture students trying to re-imagine FN housing. They highlighted a plethora of problems from mold, to improper insulation, to lack of privacy, to one size fits all designs.

In any case here’s some articles. It may shock some of you to know that some first nations are even trying to design smaller more energy effecient homes without government dollars.

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.981227

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4064715
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  #16495  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 4:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
While I understand that some things could be improved (such as in the case of the patio windows), a lot of these complaints to me sound a lot like "People-Who-Are-Fortunate-To-Get-Free-Housing Problems".
Well, my point was more like, if we can't trust you not to trash the property, then you deserve to get, for the same "free housing" money we had planned to spend on you already, that budget spent instead on much less, much more basic, much more sturdy fixtures. (And less and/or smaller windows, but of near unbreakable glass.)

It's possible to design with abuse in mind, if you know in advance that your tenants are generally going to be really tough on the hardware.
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  #16496  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 4:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Poorest places in the United States, by Median HH income:

1) Blackwater, Arizona (72.1% Native) Median HH income: $9,491
3) Wolf Point, Montana (50.5% Native) Median HH income: $12,361
18) Cibecue, Arizona (95.2% Native) Median HH income: $15,208
Wikipedia
Do the poorest Canadian reserves have $10k USD in median income, though?

At first sight, the metric that would tell us the most would be the average native HH income (country-wide) to see in which country they're doing better.

The fact that there are still pockets of poverty doesn't mean that most of them can't be doing reasonably well. (I don't know whether they are or not, I'm just pointing that fact.)

BTW, I'm somewhat familiar with the native areas of eastern Oklahoma and I've got to say I haven't seen any reserve in Canada that looks anywhere as nice as some of these places. Our reserves are pretty shameful, let's face it.
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  #16497  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 4:58 AM
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Do the poorest Canadian reserves have $10k USD in median income, though?

At first sight, the metric that would tell us the most would be the average native HH income (country-wide) to see in which country they're doing better.

The fact that there are still pockets of poverty doesn't mean that most of them can't be doing reasonably well. (I don't know whether they are or not, I'm just pointing that fact.)

BTW, I'm somewhat familiar with the native areas of eastern Oklahoma and I've got to say I haven't seen any reserve in Canada that looks anywhere as nice as some of these places. Our reserves are pretty shameful, let's face it.
Yes they are. I drove through the Siksika nation east of Calgary on my way to Medicine Hat this summer and it was like a different country. Identical ramshackle housing with billboards interspersed on the highway with messages like “Drug Dealers: Your profit is our pain” and “Don’t give up” anti suicide campaigns. It’s horrifyingly depressing and sad.
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  #16498  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 6:29 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Isn't that a problem that could be fixed pretty easily? The case of those useless large patio doors given earlier, for example, shows how "built exactly to the same Southern Canada standards as all other dwellings intended for the south" is stupid.

It could be built to sturdier standards with the same budget if we cut somewhere else, though. If all windows need to be replaced every 5 years, let's install much less easy to break windows, but less of them so that it costs the same in the end.

Same with the bathroom and kitchen. All those fixtures can be made much more sturdy than the in average Southern Canada dwelling, if needed (and you seem to be very positive that it's the case). It might be less fancy and uglier, but that's a reasonable trade off.
We all need to understand that the Building Code has differences based on location in terms of insulation requirements, foundation requirements other climatic criteria. To say that a house in say Shamattawa MB is built the same as in Toronto is not true - however they are all being built to the same standard.

Also food for thought, my mothers house built in the 1960s in Thompson MB still stands and looks much the same, as does the rest of her neighbourhood. In Cross Lake MB (just a bit south and east of Thompson), you will not find ANY houses much more than 30 years old. Building standards from the 1960s on to today have only improved. Yet houses on FN's, built to new and improved standards simply do not last.

Houses cannot be built like a prison cell, in that everything is basically resistant to abuse. Quite simply people wouldn't accept it (it would be horribly ugly) and it would cost an exorbitant amount of money. There is only so much money to go around, and FN quite reasonably want to maximize the number of houses being built, and we also need to factor in the massive costs associated with simply getting material to the communities.

But...I think we cannot get tripped up on the condition of the housing on FN's as it is just a symptom of a larger problem.

Case in point, small communities throughout MB, SK and NWO are basically stagnant, and only experience growth based on the economic opportunities that exist. Often times, people are forced to leave these areas in search of jobs elsewhere - as would be expected.

Compare that to FN communities in these same areas. You would be hard pressed to find any of the FN communities in MB, SK and NWO that aren't experiencing regular population growth in excess of any other community in each province. But there is no economic basis for this growth. It is an untenable situation that we fund and keep these communities growing. It cannot keep going on. There needs to be drastic change, and we need to encourage people to move towards economic opportunity. Artificially keeping remote communities alive, while the residents are mired in a never ending cycle of SHOCKING poverty is quite simply crazy.

Last edited by drew; Feb 14, 2018 at 6:46 AM.
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  #16499  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 6:45 AM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
FFS I didn’t even want to respond to such ignorant comments but I happened to see a special about a month ago on the news about architecture students trying to re-imagine FN housing. They highlighted a plethora of problems from mold, to improper insulation, to lack of privacy, to one size fits all designs.

In any case here’s some articles. It may shock some of you to know that some first nations are even trying to design smaller more energy efficient homes without government dollars.

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.981227

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4064715
In that first link, I would estimate that house to be no more than 30 years old. The house did not start life looking that way.

Mold - a symptom of overcrowding. Also, consider that in many houses that I have personally inspected on FNs - the mechanical systems used to ventilate the interior of houses to keep humidity down are usually turned off to save on electricity costs.

Improper insulation - minimum's are set out by national and provincial codes. A house built 20 years ago has less insulation than one built today. But who is responsible to pay the cost of improving the insulation on a 20 year old house on a FN? Is there any economic justification to improve the insulation on a house that will not last much longer than 30 years? Also consider that mold, damage and abuse tend to severely limit the effectiveness of insulation that would have been originally installed.

Custom houses and designs are fine. But they typically end up costing more money. When push comes to shove, FN's will CHOOSE more "standard" houses over custom houses because the $$ is limited. Architecture students are great for pushing new ideas and different approaches. What they aren't good at it approaching these problems from the economic reality of actually building something in a remote community. Trust me, I have seen it time and time again.

I hate to sound all doom and gloom. But trust me when I say this - in MB, SK and NWO it is doom and gloom.
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  #16500  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2018, 5:20 PM
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Still with housing.

I can understand that there may be some tweaks and adjustments that can be made for climate and other cultural concerns, but generally speaking I am having a hard time getting my head around the idea that the housing being provided is somehow intolerably "alien" in nature.

Here is a plan for a typical modern house in... Japan:



Here is a plan for a typical modern house in... West Africa:



Look familiar? Wonder why that is? Because they're all made to be inhabited by homo sapiens.
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