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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 3:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Waverley View Post
I've always wondered how it would be if Nova Scotia was able to hold onto it's Gaelic language roots and if that language became dominant like French is in Quebec today.

"By 1867, Gaelic was the third most spoken language in Canada and by 1900, as many as 100,000 Nova Scotians spoke Gaelic as their first language. However, changes in the late 19th and early 20th century, including the growth of cities, the boom of industrial jobs, the expansion of railroads and the introduction of English-only school systems, eroded the Gaelic language to near extinction."
https://cch.novascotia.ca/stories/le...-gaelic-spirit

How would a Gaelic language dominant culture be able to function in Canada (let alone the broader international community)?
Another interesting question is why French survived much better than Gaelic in Nova Scotia during the 20th century.

I am too lazy to look things up but having worked with francophone minorities, Nova Scotia had off the top of my head about 50,000 francophones around 1900. So about half the number of Gaelic speakers in the province.

Today there are probably around 35,000 to 40,000 French speakers in the province. So there's been assimilation and decline for sure but nowhere near the scale as what happened with Gaelic.

So I wonder why that is, especially since Acadians in NS were also subjected to English only schools for a large part of the 20th century, had basically no government support for their language until the latter part of the 1900s, had almost no "new" francophones moving to their communities from Quebec, NB, France or elsewhere, and were effectively isolated from the mainstream francophone sphere of Canada (which explains the unique quirks in their speech that persist to this day).
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 4:02 PM
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Just a guess and not knowing the history well; but I suspect NS Gaelic died off so much because it didn't have its own Quebec within the Canadian framework to keep it alive.

French outside of Quebec (and NB) has had hard times, but they are constantly reinforced by having such a large pool of French available in La Belle Province. So even if local support falters, there is still exposure from Quebec News and Quebec TV channels and papers and what not, to help keep it on life support.

Gaelic, outside of NS and within Canada, is effectively non-existent. So if it isn't supported, if there isn't a Canal Gaelic or two in the cable packages, a Gaelic news paper from a big Gaelic Metro, it makes it harder to keep it around.

So to keep Gaelic alive as a language, I suppose you would have to look at making Sydney much bigger and much more Gaelic in the early years; a stronger Scottish influence all around maybe. (Maybe some sort of Scottish famine similar to the Irish Famine that lead to Scots looking for better lives across the seas?)
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 4:05 PM
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They actually did try more of a shotgun approach early on. Scotland for example sent settlers to Panama at one point. But tropical diseases killed almost all of the settlers and livestock. European agricultural methods were unproductive.

The only heavily European settled areas are the ones kind of like Europe in terms of natural environment. Canada, US, NZ, Australia, South Africa, Argentina, and higher altitude parts of countries like Mexico. Generally the Spanish-speaking tropical countries have a high percentage of aboriginal ancestry. Spanish settlers in these areas had extremely high mortality rates. It was considered a death sentence if you got sent to a tropical jungle (convenient for, say, French political prisoners sent to Guyana; you could pretend you were only exiling them).

Even the Southern US was marginal because of malaria and other diseases, which is why they ended up with a plantation economy based on African slavery.
This is also a factor of different colonial approaches by the Spanish. While they still cherished notions of superiority and were hardly benevolent, they were generally much more open to the ideas of mixing with indigenous populations than the French, and much much more than the British. There were class implications for sure, but the historical/cultural role and concept of meztizo in latin america is one of the defining features of most of that region.

But along those lines...What if something similar had happened farther north? Canada as a predominantly Métis nation?
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 4:05 PM
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I always wonder what the west coast would be like if British Envoy Richard Pakenham actually gave a crap during the Oregon Treaty negotiations and the Columbia river became the US/Canada border, as it should have been. What is now Vancouver, WA, would be the third biggest city in the country with tons of room to sprawl like LA. It would also be far and away the best climate in Canada, just as far south as Toronto but with moderating ocean effect and no imposing mountain range to trap all the rain clouds.

That means Seattle would be part of Canada too, with significantly reduced importance and population. Current Vancouver would have a different name and be even smaller still, only relevant due to the Fraser River. Portland, as a border city, would probably be smaller too. Or maybe more important to the US? Not sure. Despite its name it's not really an important port. Though as the new northwest corner of the USA it would probably become an important US military city, much like San Diego.

Victoria, too, would see reduced importance since the need to secure Vancouver Island for Canada wouldn't happen with Fort Vancouver staying put. And Fort Vancouver would most likely be the BC capital instead of New Westminster/Victoria.

The real impact would be 100+ years from now when more people have settled in the west, lured by multiple large cities and warmer climates. Current Vancouver WA might eventually become the largest city in the country, and the west coast would have far more political influence with 3+ cities over 1 million.
I beg to differ re Salish Sea and Puget Sound losing their importance. Ft Vancouver WA is an 8hr transit up the Columbia River (if my memory is correct, its been awhile since I attended the annual RCN Spawning run to Portland) and the sand bar at the entrance to the Columbia is a SOB to cross. In addition there is the amount of dredging that needs to be done to keep the Columbia navigable for ocean going ships. Meanwhile Burrard Inlet and the Seattle area are far far easier for cargo ships to get into.

Same reasons exist for Portland becoming a major USN base, its just not a practical area for naval operations. I think that San Francisco would have developed more into that role. (Due to amalgamation of US armed forces real estate all the bases in the SF area were shut down).

I also wonder if Canada was as far south as the Columbia that Alaska would have even been on the US radar when it came for sale.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 4:22 PM
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Would Russia have even sold Alaska if it wasn't for US pressure? Scary thought.

I don't know how much you can say about Seattle if it was always in Canada. Much of it's history is due to being an American city, with an American push to be settled for security reasons, and the gold rush was one of the most significant expansions of Seattle, which wouldn't have happened without Alaska.

I imagine it would have been quite a bit smaller and less important if it was always part of Canada under a columbia river scenario.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 5:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Taeolas View Post
Just a guess and not knowing the history well; but I suspect NS Gaelic died off so much because it didn't have its own Quebec within the Canadian framework to keep it alive.

French outside of Quebec (and NB) has had hard times, but they are constantly reinforced by having such a large pool of French available in La Belle Province. So even if local support falters, there is still exposure from Quebec News and Quebec TV channels and papers and what not, to help keep it on life support.
But as I mentioned in my post, the Nova Scotia Acadians lived in near-total isolation from all of that for the first 60 to 70 years of the 20th century.

The fact that Quebec was in Canada (or even that a larger, somewhat more purely francophone Acadian demographic was right next to them in New Brunswick) made almost no difference.

As far as I can recall from visits with my relatives as a child, there was basically no French language TV or radio accessible (either Radio-Canada or local community services) at all in Nova Scotia until the late 70s or maybe into the 80s. They now have access to Quebec media, national francophone radio and TV networks and community media in French, but this is an extremely recent thing (20 years or less in most cases).

Quebec newspapers and magazines were not distributed in Nova Scotia back in the day and by and large are not distributed there today. I visit relatives in Acadian communities regularly and can tell you there isn't anything in French on the news stands except the community weekly called Le P'tit Courrier de la Nouvelle-Écosse - which was around when I was a kid. Everything else that is available in Pubnico, Meteghan or Chéticamp is in English.

As a result of the dearth of francophone media and cultural products, the local Acadians are totally "weaned" on anglophone media - even from the U.S. in some regions since signals from New England travelled over ocean water. And there is little uptake for francophone media except for stuff that's extremely locally focused like the two or three community radio stations they have across the province.

This is a marked contrast with New Brunswick (especially in the north) where even in the early days of TV and radio lots of signals in French travelled over the waters of the Baie des Chaleurs, and the region was also quickly integrated into the distribution networks for Quebec newspapers, magazines, books, records and other cultural products in French. As a result today the region of New Brunswick that is roughly north of the Miramichi River and Route 108 is firmly entrenched as part of the Quebec mediasphere, even if NB Acadians also have some of their own media too.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 5:31 PM
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It may be as simple as just knowing that a stronger French community existed nearby, even if the media didn't affect it yet, gave them the durability to last, whereas the NS Gaelic community had no one else nearby, so they had/have to endure by themselves (at least until recently; nowadays they can more easily tap into their Scottish roots for support).

Even if the NS Acadians didn't have much contact with Quebec or NB Acadians, they knew they existed. Visitors in all directions would happen. Quebec would still be in the national media, even if it wasn't French, and so forth. It would make it easier for them to feel their roots and keep their culture among the wave of English that is Nova Scotia, even if it is mostly felt subconsciously.

Or at least that would be my guess for it.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 5:53 PM
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I would guess the NS Acadians were just more stubborn than the Gaelic speakers.

The Highland Scots who immigrated to NS were after all British, and would have had considerable interaction with English or Scots (lowland) speakers back home. Also, they may have been more resigned to the fact that they were in fact immigrating to an English speaking continent and therefore would eventually be absorbed into the Anglophone majority.

Acadians would feel differently about the assimilation process. They were after all here first.........
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 6:00 PM
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I would guess the NS Acadians were just more stubborn than the Gaelic speakers.

The Highland Scots who immigrated to NS were after all British, and would have had considerable interaction with English or Scots (lowland) speakers back home. Also, they may have been more resigned to the fact that they were in fact immigrating to an English speaking continent and therefore would eventually be absorbed into the Anglophone majority.

Acadians would feel differently about the assimilation process. They were after all here first.........
Thinking about this further, I don't know what relationship there was between religion and language for the Highland Scots, but for the Acadians this was one area of their lives where the French language totally predominated.

The Acadians were very devoutly Catholic, and even though school, government affairs, business and most everything else would have been English outside of your family and friends, the church was one place where everything was always in French and generally in French only.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 6:02 PM
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What if (God forbid) the Spadina Expressway isn't stopped in Toronto?
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 6:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Another interesting question is why French survived much better than Gaelic in Nova Scotia during the 20th century.

I am too lazy to look things up but having worked with francophone minorities, Nova Scotia had off the top of my head about 50,000 francophones around 1900. So about half the number of Gaelic speakers in the province.

Today there are probably around 35,000 to 40,000 French speakers in the province. So there's been assimilation and decline for sure but nowhere near the scale as what happened with Gaelic.

So I wonder why that is, especially since Acadians in NS were also subjected to English only schools for a large part of the 20th century, had basically no government support for their language until the latter part of the 1900s, had almost no "new" francophones moving to their communities from Quebec, NB, France or elsewhere, and were effectively isolated from the mainstream francophone sphere of Canada (which explains the unique quirks in their speech that persist to this day).
The Acadians that maintained their language and culture were likely segregated from mainstream Anglophone society, living and interacting primarily with each other.

That likely didn't happen with Gaelic. Presumably they lived among and interacted all the time with Anglophone Nova Scotians.

Our French and Irish speaking settlers, who dominated pockets of the province for generations, were nearly completely assimilated. The francophones lost the battle largely as a result of the American military base in Stephenville. The Irish speakers were just slowly absorbed into the general Irish heritage population. I believe our last census showed not a single person for whom Irish was their mother language - so it's effectively dead here except for the middle aged and older people who picked it up from older relatives, and all of the individual words that are still common in NL English (ie sleeveen) and our past tense structure ("what's after happening now?" Compared to the Canadian "what just happened?"; "I'm after buying one" versus "I bought one", "I'm after going" versus "I went", etc.). And in former francophone areas you still encounter people who can't speak a word of French but say things like "I already ate, me", "Throw grandfather down the stairs he's hat"
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 6:14 PM
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What if (God forbid) the Spadina Expressway isn't stopped in Toronto?
I might be in the minority on here but I am of the view that the lasting impact on inner Toronto would have been relatively minimal. Toronto already has expressways in its core areas like the DVP and the Gardiner. Another one would not have been great but it certainly would not have killed the vibrancy that emerged there. It would have happened expressway or not.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 6:22 PM
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I might be in the minority on here but I am of the view that the lasting impact on inner Toronto would have been relatively minimal. Toronto already has expressways in its core areas like the DVP and the Gardiner. Another one would not have been great but it certainly would not have killed the vibrancy that emerged there. It would have happened expressway or not.
In that case though...
Correct me if I’m wrong, but little would have been built north of 401. In that case, 401 really would have been a Toronto Bypass. And then the towns along Steeles Avenue might have combined to be the city of York instead.

Speaking of York, I’m more interested in this: What if Mike Marris didn’t sell 407?
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I would guess the NS Acadians were just more stubborn than the Gaelic speakers.

The Highland Scots who immigrated to NS were after all British, and would have had considerable interaction with English or Scots (lowland) speakers back home. Also, they may have been more resigned to the fact that they were in fact immigrating to an English speaking continent and therefore would eventually be absorbed into the Anglophone majority.

Acadians would feel differently about the assimilation process. They were after all here first.........
I've noticed that French-speaking Canadians definitely have a mindset that they and their language are "at home" here on this continent. We seem to have this in common with Mexican-Americans (and often Latin Americans in general).

This does not always prevent assimilation, but it does make the two populations somewhat more resistant to assimilation when they are in minority situations.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 6:27 PM
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In that case though...
Correct me if I’m wrong, but little would have been built north of 401. In that case, 401 really would have been a Toronto Bypass. And then the towns along Steeles Avenue might have combined to be the city of York instead.

Speaking of York, I’m more interested in this: What if Mike Marris didn’t sell 407?
Why would the Spadina Expwy. have limited development north of the 401?
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  #56  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 6:30 PM
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Why would the Spadina Expwy. have limited development north of the 401?
Good question. I don’t think I can provide a valid reason for that.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 6:32 PM
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the geography was much more accessible given the Saint Lawrence seaway. The United States had no such passage so deep into the continent. It is one of the reasons why much exploration of the continent was started in Montreal (being the farthest navigable point for large vessels due to the Lachine rapids (the coureurs-de-bois would portage upstream and bootstrap their way across the continent).

Montreal was therefore destined to be the primary city, at until well after the Lachine Canal was constructed.
Yup, and it's not just navigation either. It's the land itself. AFAIK Ontario and Quebec have the biggest areas of prime farmland in the country while agriculture in the Maritimes is mostly confined to relatively small valleys. In a 19th century agrairian society that makes all the difference.

Ontario and Quebec are closer to major US markets as well, both the Northeast Corridor and the Midwest. For example, Boston is significantly closer to Montreal than Halifax, and New York, Philadelphia and Chicago are closer to Toronto than Halifax. Once railroads were developed that made a real difference.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I might be in the minority on here but I am of the view that the lasting impact on inner Toronto would have been relatively minimal. Toronto already has expressways in its core areas like the DVP and the Gardiner. Another one would not have been great but it certainly would not have killed the vibrancy that emerged there. It would have happened expressway or not.

As proposed the Spadina expressway would have altered the urban fabric significantly more than the DVP or Gardiner, both of which had very little effect on the built up area. One was in a valley and the other on mostly vacant industrial land. The one area significantly affected by the Gardiner (Parkdale) stagnated for years after its construction, although that was part of a larger redevelopment scheme.

It's hard to tell what the exact effect would be, but I think it's safe to say the Annex would be significantly less desirable than it is now. The expressway would have gone right through the neighbourhood down to Harbord and culminated in a "reconstructed" Spadina ave (not really clear on what that would entail). Chinatown may have relocated elsewhere and it's certainly possible that the centre of gravity of development / desirability in Toronto would skew further east than it does now.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 6:55 PM
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This is also a factor of different colonial approaches by the Spanish. While they still cherished notions of superiority and were hardly benevolent, they were generally much more open to the ideas of mixing with indigenous populations than the French, and much much more than the British. There were class implications for sure, but the historical/cultural role and concept of meztizo in latin america is one of the defining features of most of that region.

But along those lines...What if something similar had happened farther north? Canada as a predominantly Métis nation?
Another factor in the larger native proportion of ancestry in places in Latin America like Mexico and Central America in particular, is just that the indigenous population was larger to begin with (the tropics can support more people living on the same unit of land than Canadian geography allows). Places like Mesoamerica and Peru (I know the civilizations there were not necessarily tropical in climate though, since they were often highland) had larger denser settlements. So, highland South America and Central America, where the settlements and cities that natives had were large and dense, happen to be places in Latin America or in the Americas as a whole with more indigenous ancestry today relative to places like Canada, the US, Argentina etc.

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I've noticed that French-speaking Canadians definitely have a mindset that they and their language are "at home" here on this continent. We seem to have this in common with Mexican-Americans (and often Latin Americans in general).

This does not always prevent assimilation, but it does make the two populations somewhat more resistant to assimilation when they are in minority situations.
True, there's an element of "our languages were here before the Anglos" that both Latin Americans and French Canadians share. Others like German Midwesterners, Ukrainians on the Prairies and Gaelic Maritimers, were much more prone to assimilation even if their populations were large at one time.

Then again, without institutional support, Quebec-style, you still have language loss (eg. Cajuns, Franco-Americans in the US, even Spanish-speaking Americans in places without large critical mass), regardless of if the language was a "colonial period" one, not an "immigrant" one. Acadians could still keep their language better than Franco-Americans though even without support from government.

But I don't know how Acadians who stayed in Canada did compared to their counterparts that became the Cajuns. Louisiana according to a quick wiki search is claimed to have 150, 000 to 200, 000 French speakers, less than the Acadians remaining in Canada but still large in number.

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Yup, and it's not just navigation either. It's the land itself. AFAIK Ontario and Quebec have the biggest areas of prime farmland in the country while agriculture in the Maritimes is mostly confined to relatively small valleys. In a 19th century agrairian society that makes all the difference.
The Maritimes had (and still has) forestry and fishing and coal mining, though I don't know how that could compete with agriculture and the other advantages that Ontario and Quebec had. I wonder if in theory you could have an economically powerful Maritimes that mirrors more like the US situation (large, powerful cities on the east coast).
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  #60  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2018, 6:57 PM
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As proposed the Spadina expressway would have altered the urban fabric significantly more than the DVP or Gardiner, both of which had very little effect on the built up area. One was in a valley and the other on mostly vacant industrial land. The one area significantly affected by the Gardiner (Parkdale) stagnated for years after its construction, although that was part of a larger redevelopment scheme.

It's hard to tell what the exact effect would be, but I think it's safe to say the Annex would be significantly less desirable than it is now. The expressway would have gone right through the neighbourhood down to Harbord and culminated in a "reconstructed" Spadina ave (not really clear on what that would entail). Chinatown may have relocated elsewhere and it's certainly possible that the centre of gravity of development / desirability in Toronto would skew further east than it does now.
Would Toronto really look more like the 1970s stereotype of a "poor, inner city, rich suburbs" troubled American city if that happened? Or would other factors be at play?
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