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  #1021  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2017, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
I'll never understand why having the job of politician on your resume is a bad thing for the job of politician. Would you want a doctor who wasn't a 'career doctor'?
I was going to say something like that but Wolf already heavily qualified his claim that more conservatives come from the private sector. You're right though--politics is a profession and most successful politicians have made a career of it. That said, I'll still never vote for someone whose first job was VP in a students' union. I'd like my representatives in government to have some grasp of what the rest of us go through.

But to your other point about politics being run like business--and this is going to sound cynical as all hell--when we elect a government we're basically collectively hiring a group of poorly-compensated administrators to run a very large company that provides us a collection of services.

This is where borkborkbork's point about the caliber of business person in the PC party applies. Big business executives capable of guiding a lumbering leviathan like our provincial government aren't interested. They can make millions in the private sector. Thus, we get small-time entrepreneurs, branch office middle-managers, and a premier who takes credit for his wife's business savvy. You could make the case that career politicians from the left who've spent decades in government are better at running government.


Anyway, esquire's description of Manitoba's politics, "bulimia politics" is apt. On a fundamental level, the collective, non-consensus nature of democracy means people will always be at odds over what services the government provides. Here in the city, we don't see the value of improving highway 12, while in Steinbach they don't see the value of building rapid transit in Winnipeg. A comfortable family in Charleswood may consider money going to a womens' centre in the West End wasted, while happily putting their kids into a heavily subsidized hockey program. We can assess the value of every service and can discuss their relative merits, but someone will always think that a service that someone else relies on is a waste.

For a current example, Kevin O'Leary is championing himself as the ultimate small-government candidate for Conservative leadership. He recently said something to the effect that the government should only provide a military and roads. But why? In years past, I've made the case on this board that roads are easily privatizable. If even "cut everything" Kevin thinks that subsidizing drivers and the trucking industry is a sacred facet of government services, and others disagree, that is an inevitable impasse in democracy.

Here in Manitoba, we see this impasse played out with our particular culture, and with our particular set of actors. We just turfed out Sellinger--a real-life Fabian Socialist bent on sneaking us into the bosom of socialism on the back of top-down economic planning, expanding government for expansion's sake, and clandestine tax increases. In his place, we have Pallister--an ogre who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing; he professes a frontier, DIY mentality that would see him rather roof his own house poorly than pay to have professionals do the job--in practice this means he doesn't roof his house until his ceiling caves in.

In reality, we can walk a broad avenue between these extremes. I'd like to think most Manitobans are aware of that. While there is a hard core of cheapskates who will never understand that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And on the other hand there is a hard core of public sector and union admins who know they provide little of value to society unless obviously broken institutions like the taxi board, by virtue of pure dogma, remain intact. But if we can settle down these extremes, I should think that most of us would rather we assess the value of every service and discuss their relative merits. Attention to detail may not make for sexy politics, but it does make for good administration.



In the big picture, though, our political pendulum could work out well. Manitoba is experiencing something of a boom right now, and if we play our macroeconomics right, that means we should be trimming government back. The Keynesian flywheel is just a famous asshole's expression of sound business orthodoxy: accumulate cash when times are good, accumulate assets when times are hard.
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  #1022  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2017, 5:27 PM
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can't you right wingers get a room? this aint it...
right wingers = adults
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  #1023  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2017, 5:35 PM
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I was going to say something like that but Wolf already heavily qualified his claim that more conservatives come from the private sector. You're right though--politics is a profession and most successful politicians have made a career of it. That said, I'll still never vote for someone whose first job was VP in a students' union. I'd like my representatives in government to have some grasp of what the rest of us go through.

But to your other point about politics being run like business--and this is going to sound cynical as all hell--when we elect a government we're basically collectively hiring a group of poorly-compensated administrators to run a very large company that provides us a collection of services.

This is where borkborkbork's point about the caliber of business person in the PC party applies. Big business executives capable of guiding a lumbering leviathan like our provincial government aren't interested. They can make millions in the private sector. Thus, we get small-time entrepreneurs, branch office middle-managers, and a premier who takes credit for his wife's business savvy. You could make the case that career politicians from the left who've spent decades in government are better at running government.


Anyway, esquire's description of Manitoba's politics, "bulimia politics" is apt. On a fundamental level, the collective, non-consensus nature of democracy means people will always be at odds over what services the government provides. Here in the city, we don't see the value of improving highway 12, while in Steinbach they don't see the value of building rapid transit in Winnipeg. A comfortable family in Charleswood may consider money going to a womens' centre in the West End wasted, while happily putting their kids into a heavily subsidized hockey program. We can assess the value of every service and can discuss their relative merits, but someone will always think that a service that someone else relies on is a waste.

For a current example, Kevin O'Leary is championing himself as the ultimate small-government candidate for Conservative leadership. He recently said something to the effect that the government should only provide a military and roads. But why? In years past, I've made the case on this board that roads are easily privatizable. If even "cut everything" Kevin thinks that subsidizing drivers and the trucking industry is a sacred facet of government services, and others disagree, that is an inevitable impasse in democracy.

Here in Manitoba, we see this impasse played out with our particular culture, and with our particular set of actors. We just turfed out Sellinger--a real-life Fabian Socialist bent on sneaking us into the bosom of socialism on the back of top-down economic planning, expanding government for expansion's sake, and clandestine tax increases. In his place, we have Pallister--an ogre who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing; he professes a frontier, DIY mentality that would see him rather roof his own house poorly than pay to have professionals do the job--in practice this means he doesn't roof his house until his ceiling caves in.

In reality, we can walk a broad avenue between these extremes. I'd like to think most Manitobans are aware of that. While there is a hard core of cheapskates who will never understand that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And on the other hand there is a hard core of public sector and union admins who know they provide little of value to society unless obviously broken institutions like the taxi board, by virtue of pure dogma, remain intact. But if we can settle down these extremes, I should think that most of us would rather we assess the value of every service and discuss their relative merits. Attention to detail may not make for sexy politics, but it does make for good administration.



In the big picture, though, our political pendulum could work out well. Manitoba is experiencing something of a boom right now, and if we play our macroeconomics right, that means we should be trimming government back. The Keynesian flywheel is just a famous asshole's expression of sound business orthodoxy: accumulate cash when times are good, accumulate assets when times are hard.
Bolded- Love it,

The problem with Manitoba and Winnipeg for that matter is that everything and I mean everything has the smell of govt. stink on it, don't care what party or candidate you support it's all the same!
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  #1024  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2017, 6:34 PM
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The problem with Manitoba and Winnipeg for that matter is that everything and I mean everything has the smell of govt. stink on it, don't care what party or candidate you support it's all the same!
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  #1025  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2017, 7:05 PM
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^ ha
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  #1026  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2017, 10:22 PM
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Somebody sing "Soft Kitty" please...
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  #1027  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2017, 11:42 PM
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Don't we have a politics thread?
Yes we do, and I wish people would take their political talk there as it does not belong in this thread.
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  #1028  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2017, 11:56 PM
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My hydro bill for January in a small 850 sq ft apt with only 2 exposed walls is 190 dollars. I'm not paying $300 for heat.
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  #1029  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2017, 2:34 AM
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Except government is not a business. There is much more to successful governance than turning profit, which is the sole driver of business. This point seems to have been forgotten these days. Government is about creating a quality of life for all of its citizens.

My biggest criticism of this government is that they are running the Province as if it was a business having to report to shareholders at the quarter. They have a single focus and have forgotten that while business is about money, government is about people. A fundamental difference.
I think you're referring to the extreme version of "running a government like a business", which I don't think is what most people are alluding to.

To me, its more about the accountability and efficiency that a private sector mindset can instill in the bureaucracy. Is a regional health authority expected to make a profit? No. But I do think we should question why an RHA needs umpteen "communications experts" on their payroll. In a business, you'd be hard pressed to show up and browse reddit all day without any recourse. But try laying off an employee under contract with CUPE or MGEU... There is a need for some efficiency and accountability - I think that's what most of us mean when we talk about the need for a "business" mentality in some of the fattier corners of the bureaucracy.
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  #1030  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2017, 4:03 AM
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I think you're referring to the extreme version of "running a government like a business", which I don't think is what most people are alluding to.

To me, its more about the accountability and efficiency that a private sector mindset can instill in the bureaucracy. Is a regional health authority expected to make a profit? No. But I do think we should question why an RHA needs umpteen "communications experts" on their payroll. In a business, you'd be hard pressed to show up and browse reddit all day without any recourse. But try laying off an employee under contract with CUPE or MGEU... There is a need for some efficiency and accountability - I think that's what most of us mean when we talk about the need for a "business" mentality in some of the fattier corners of the bureaucracy.
Private labs do some of the testing in pathology and do it for a lot cheaper and faster, why shouldn't this all be contracted out?

Don't see anything wrong with private MRI testing etc. If the private sector can do it cheaper, go for it!
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  #1031  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2017, 2:54 PM
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Private or public, it's difficult to cut costs when you incentivize tests / procedures.

Ultimately, if you pay a salary, or a set amount per population, you are more likely to save money. Using a fee for service model will often increase costs over the long run.

If the problem was easily solved...
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  #1032  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2017, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by YWG-RO View Post
Private or public, it's difficult to cut costs when you incentivize tests / procedures.

Ultimately, if you pay a salary, or a set amount per population, you are more likely to save money. Using a fee for service model will often increase costs over the long run.

If the problem was easily solved...
yup. there are no simple approaches to this. my personal bottom line is that we maintain a single payer system. within that framework we should be willing to innovate and support things that work..
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  #1033  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2017, 9:08 PM
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^While I agree in principal, cold turkey cutting like this can be harmful. Cutting many yobs man. He doesn't care. As you've said, he's rich anyways.

Saying all hands on deck repeatedly, blah blah blah, then bolting to Costa Rica with virtually no contact? Wtf man. Maybe if he was better at managing his job, people wouldn't be so critical. He's a pompous ass most of the time.
See, I don't buy that... the "he's rich anyway" thinking... and I'm not trying to sound condescending, but that's small-time thinking. Me personally, I don't care if he bolts to Costa Rica so long as his job gets done. He could do a better job living in CR permanently than Selinger if he never left his Legislative office.

There is a reason he's making cold turkey cuts, described below...

And who cares if he's pompous? Every voter wants a candidate that they can "relate" to... how "relatable" do you expect any hypothetical super-successful person capable of turning around a province to be? These guys work 80+ hrs a week, might have 3 degrees, and could be ruthless. They might be so successful that they have a Ferrari and are "out of touch". Who cares? There are trade-offs for someone who is ACTUALLY great. If a premier who was actually talented was at my BBQ I'd say "for fuck's sake, why aren't you working?"

I want a premier (or a prime minister), not a buddy.

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How anyone can say Pallister shouldn't be cutting is dumbfounding, what part of a billion dollar deficit don't some of you get!?!!!

Manitoba has a $30 Billion dollar debt. that was doubled during the NDP regime. Do you guys have any idea the amount of tax dollars that are squandered every year for debt. servicing?!?

Manitoba has already dug such deep hole that it will make it hard to retain professionals who don't want to be taxed at the highest rates in Canada. The irreparable harm done to Manitoba during the reign of the NDP regime will take years to correct.
That's why it's cold turkey. Pallister might have given us the kid gloves if we were only 10B in debt, but we're not. The NDP KNOWLINGLY spent themselves into THIS much debt because it would require tough love for a conservative to fix. Since we're all spoiled brats, this means the Cons might not get a sedcond term and a rebuilt NDP is ready to take over again.

Nobody likes their parents after a spanking.

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Wow, I can't believe you are making the big mistake that because he's a successful businessman he must know to run the economy. That's nonsense. The Government is, as others have pointed out, not a business. The US is being run by a billionaire businessman right now and we can see how great that's going. Also, the article I attached talks about the Business Council of Manitoba, which must be filled with businessmen, bemoaning Pallister's approach. My additional point was that, when you can leverage federal cash for the province by a matching grant, it only makes sense to do it. It generates economic activity for a smaller investment on the province's behalf.
I'm not saying, or intending to, that his experience guarantees him success as a premier. I AM saying, that it's an infinitely better starting point than whatever Selinger is/was. Denying this would be ignorant. A lot of the spendiest politicians are either career politicians or activists, or lawyers. Lawyers have to win cases, no matter the client. In politics, the lawyer's principles always mold to an ever changing voter block, hence the onslaught of promises many lib/dip lawyers provide.


Furthermore, I said in past posts I'm in favour of timely grants. I hope that after a bit of stabilizing that he considers this. But if I had a choice between no grants and whatever the dippers do, I'm for Pallister.

Heaven forbid we dig our heels in during difficult times.

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You mean all the shares he got when Filmon sold MTS? You must have noticed how happy he was with the Bell announcement right? And while I'm at it, where is Filmon now hmmm? Self serving, almost the majority of them.
Sorry, but how do you not see the blatant self-serving nature of the libs/dips? Why do you think they promise EVERYTHING and spend EVERYTHING? Securing new voters. Furthermore, if given the option of a handout, most take it, because hell, the rich guy who already has money (as mentioned above) can foot the tax bill.

Not only do the rich guys hate paying more than necessary, they have an investment mind set; Where's my return on my investment? Oh, whimsical policies and huge spending? To hell in a handbasket? Sweet!

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You know this happens in every Province, State, Country in the world. Big Smoke T.O. puts hundreds of millions into private developments.
These deals do happen in every province, but only our province (well, maybe NS or New Brunswick also, I don't know) NEEDS a grant to even get to the idea stage. It's just good sense to pursue a grant as a developer, whether in TO or Vancouver or in Flin Flon. There may be kickbacks, but often, it's NEEDED, especially in Wpg's case. TNS, SkyCity, and likely 300 Main would never exist otherwise, because they wouldn't make any money.

This is why I don't mind well executed grants, as aforementioned. My patience for Pallister has a time limit as well, it's just not at that threshold yet.

Meanwhile many on this board are happy to welcome the dummy dippers back before Pallister has even had a chance to do much.

And "all he can do is cut" is lame, because look around... ALMOST NO politician does cuts. Because it's unpopular. He's risking tanking a second term to potentially do the right thing, but that's only an option because Selinger was SO bad.
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  #1034  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2017, 10:16 PM
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See, I don't buy that... the "he's rich anyway" thinking... and I'm not trying to sound condescending, but that's small-time thinking. Me personally, I don't care if he bolts to Costa Rica so long as his job gets done. He could do a better job living in CR permanently than Selinger if he never left his Legislative office.

There is a reason he's making cold turkey cuts, described below...

And who cares if he's pompous? Every voter wants a candidate that they can "relate" to... how "relatable" do you expect any hypothetical super-successful person capable of turning around a province to be? These guys work 80+ hrs a week, might have 3 degrees, and could be ruthless. They might be so successful that they have a Ferrari and are "out of touch". Who cares? There are trade-offs for someone who is ACTUALLY great. If a premier who was actually talented was at my BBQ I'd say "for fuck's sake, why aren't you working?"

I want a premier (or a prime minister), not a buddy.



That's why it's cold turkey. Pallister might have given us the kid gloves if we were only 10B in debt, but we're not. The NDP KNOWLINGLY spent themselves into THIS much debt because it would require tough love for a conservative to fix. Since we're all spoiled brats, this means the Cons might not get a sedcond term and a rebuilt NDP is ready to take over again.

Nobody likes their parents after a spanking.



I'm not saying, or intending to, that his experience guarantees him success as a premier. I AM saying, that it's an infinitely better starting point than whatever Selinger is/was. Denying this would be ignorant. A lot of the spendiest politicians are either career politicians or activists, or lawyers. Lawyers have to win cases, no matter the client. In politics, the lawyer's principles always mold to an ever changing voter block, hence the onslaught of promises many lib/dip lawyers provide.


Furthermore, I said in past posts I'm in favour of timely grants. I hope that after a bit of stabilizing that he considers this. But if I had a choice between no grants and whatever the dippers do, I'm for Pallister.

Heaven forbid we dig our heels in during difficult times.



Sorry, but how do you not see the blatant self-serving nature of the libs/dips? Why do you think they promise EVERYTHING and spend EVERYTHING? Securing new voters. Furthermore, if given the option of a handout, most take it, because hell, the rich guy who already has money (as mentioned above) can foot the tax bill.

Not only do the rich guys hate paying more than necessary, they have an investment mind set; Where's my return on my investment? Oh, whimsical policies and huge spending? To hell in a handbasket? Sweet!



These deals do happen in every province, but only our province (well, maybe NS or New Brunswick also, I don't know) NEEDS a grant to even get to the idea stage. It's just good sense to pursue a grant as a developer, whether in TO or Vancouver or in Flin Flon. There may be kickbacks, but often, it's NEEDED, especially in Wpg's case. TNS, SkyCity, and likely 300 Main would never exist otherwise, because they wouldn't make any money.

This is why I don't mind well executed grants, as aforementioned. My patience for Pallister has a time limit as well, it's just not at that threshold yet.

Meanwhile many on this board are happy to welcome the dummy dippers back before Pallister has even had a chance to do much.

And "all he can do is cut" is lame, because look around... ALMOST NO politician does cuts. Because it's unpopular. He's risking tanking a second term to potentially do the right thing, but that's only an option because Selinger was SO bad.
I have to say, for someone who is reputedly not trying to be condescending, you do a fantastic job of it. I guess I'm going to have "ignorant" as you say, because no, just because you are a successful businessman (albeit a small businessman, let's be truthful), it does not follow that you will be better at running a government than someone who is, say, not a businessman. This is a logical fallacy. And you have absolutely no idea whether Pallister is doing his job or not. Many who do have experience have commented that the most important time of all for a new premier to actually be around is in the first year or two, because that's when you learn the job. He's been nationally panned for the amount of time he spends out of the province. He actually lied about where he was when he was opposition leader, saying he was at a family wedding when he was actually drinking margeritas in Costa Rica. Anyway, knock yourself out if you want to idolize this guy, but he's raising eyebrows across the political spectrum. And not for good reasons.
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  #1035  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2017, 10:34 PM
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Let's keep the Politics in this thread. Thx. Again..Have at er..
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  #1036  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2017, 10:50 PM
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Pallister is being respectful of taxpayers, and responsible with their money, something the NDP has never shown one iota of interest in.
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  #1037  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2017, 9:09 PM
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I have to say, for someone who is reputedly not trying to be condescending, you do a fantastic job of it. I guess I'm going to have "ignorant" as you say, because no, just because you are a successful businessman (albeit a small businessman, let's be truthful), it does not follow that you will be better at running a government than someone who is, say, not a businessman. This is a logical fallacy. And you have absolutely no idea whether Pallister is doing his job or not. Many who do have experience have commented that the most important time of all for a new premier to actually be around is in the first year or two, because that's when you learn the job. He's been nationally panned for the amount of time he spends out of the province. He actually lied about where he was when he was opposition leader, saying he was at a family wedding when he was actually drinking margeritas in Costa Rica. Anyway, knock yourself out if you want to idolize this guy, but he's raising eyebrows across the political spectrum. And not for good reasons.
Lol, get over it.

Sorry if I come across that way, but the reason is because it feels like I'm fighting the status quo here. For some reason we let the NDP and related socialist nonsense not just into our city but our bloodstream, and it's cancerous.

To reiterate what I said, no, running a business doesn't guarantee you'll run a better government.


... but it's on the resume. Technically speaking, there's no reason that a landscaper won't make a better president than Bill Gates, but it's hard to argue with a solid, stacked resume.

But when you have a track record of success, it only speaks positively of you. Compare that to Selinger and Bokhari.... lol. Sorry, but on WHAT GROUNDS could their ability and track record stand up to Pallister's?

And to again reiterate, since you forget, I don't have unlimited ptience with Pallister, and don't hold the view that only constant cutting is the way to go. However, I'm not bitching the very moment he takes away our allowance and makes us put our own dishes in the dishwasher.

You know why he lied about spending time in CR? Because Manitobans hate the rich. We've been taught, and are now told that there's us, and there's them. We say it's the "everyman" in us but it is a form of envy.

I know many business people who have left the province and found it much easier to make money for a several reasons, two of which are 1) the market place, and how ours is a welfare state, and 2) the constant resistance you get from the populace which does not like someone pulling ahead of the pack.

That's the downside to an otherwise good sense of community in Winnipeg. It's great that we all are kind and get along, but the cynicism and sheer doubt towards legitimate success has led revenue generators to Calgary, Vancouver, Toronto, and even Edmonton.

You say "idolize"? You're not reading my posts nor thinking it through. The reason I say "reiterate" all the time is to stress that I don't intend to give him a free pass.

But his PC party looks like Wayne Gretzky next to Burmistrov when stacked against Selinger or Bokhari. You'd have to be brainwashed to be this hard on him so soon.
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  #1038  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2017, 9:34 PM
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See, I don't buy that... the "he's rich anyway" thinking... and I'm not trying to sound condescending, but that's small-time thinking. Me personally, I don't care if he bolts to Costa Rica so long as his job gets done. He could do a better job living in CR permanently than Selinger if he never left his Legislative office.

There is a reason he's making cold turkey cuts, described below...

And who cares if he's pompous? Every voter wants a candidate that they can "relate" to... how "relatable" do you expect any hypothetical super-successful person capable of turning around a province to be? These guys work 80+ hrs a week, might have 3 degrees, and could be ruthless. They might be so successful that they have a Ferrari and are "out of touch". Who cares? There are trade-offs for someone who is ACTUALLY great. If a premier who was actually talented was at my BBQ I'd say "for fuck's sake, why aren't you working?"

I want a premier (or a prime minister), not a buddy.
But he's not doing his job in Costa Rica. He's not doing anything. He has very limited contact and takes some paper doc's with him to look at. So no he's not doing his job at all. That's my problem. The process stalls when he's unavailable. Has been noted in the press it's hard to get things done.

Then you say if Premier's at your BBQ, you'll tell him to get back to work. I'd tell you to take a hike and get back to whatever job you have. Being Premier doesn't been being on the job 24/7. You're allowed to have personal time just like anyone else. Except when your personal times is 2 months out of Province and you're not really working. That's where my issue is.

How much vacation time does the Premier have? Does he get 8 weeks? I don't think he does. So maybe half the time in Costa Rica is legit, the other half he should be back here working.

Pallister being a pompous ass doesn't help his cause at all. If he was being pompous, but was at the Leg for work everyday, okay some leniency. Being pompous and out of province, while you're the fucking Premier, no leniency. For his 5 years in office, he'll be out of province for almost a full year on personal time Costa Rica.

I don't really think Pallister is great. But we'll see how he does over the next few years. Clarity, I hate politics and politicians. Look at the states. A bunch of monkeys voting for Trump. Donald f'in Trump. Biggest crook in the world that guy. How's that for politics.
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  #1039  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2017, 9:42 PM
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The Asper School of Business has also now raised concerns about Pallister's cut everything now without thinking take 15 percent off the top no matter what strategy. They've pointed out that a measured strategy of managing cuts responsibly over a longer period of time is a better approach, with less negative impact on the economy over timie. This is similar to what the Manitoba Business Council also said in their assessment of Pallister. So a whole lot of business knowledge, and traditional conservative support, is saying make cuts, but smart cuts.
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Old Posted Feb 23, 2017, 9:48 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ando View Post
The Asper School of Business has also now raised concerns about Pallister's cut everything now without thinking take 15 percent off the top no matter what strategy. They've pointed out that a measured strategy of managing cuts responsibly over a longer period of time is a better approach, with less negative impact on the economy over timie. This is similar to what the Manitoba Business Council also said in their assessment of Pallister. So a whole lot of business knowledge, and traditional conservative support, is saying make cuts, but smart cuts.
I agree, make smart cuts. Although I wouldn't trust Asper School of business on their name alone. They're a public entity.

I'm just not losing my shit over this stuff that soon. The "we shall see" approach with cuts is safer than the "we shall see" approach with spending, at least in gluttonous manitoba IMO.

Because those were the choices... Selinger or Pallister, not anything in between. Spending or cutting. Hence why it may not be ideal (though it's too soon to tell), but I'm not upset over it.
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