174 Widening and Extension | Proposed

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

This was another case of Staff completely missing the mark!

There was a request from an east end Councillor to connect the Hunt Club Road to the 417 so that Orleans residents could have better access to the airport. Unfortunately, the word 'direct' was used instead of 'better'. Staff when off and commissioned the EA for a direct connection from the Hunt Club Road to Orleans. Compound this with the Councillors' refusal to actually READ things before they approve them and then we get an EA for the two phases; first to the 417, and then to Innes. (The only reason it went to Innes, if I recall, is because Staff couldn't get a more direct route through the Mer Bleue.)

^ The Innes/Walkley connection has been in the OP since at least 1997... part of the approvals for the Cyrville and Innes commercial areas included a clause limiting development in those areas until the Innes-Walkley connection was compeleted .

It is desired to achieve a "balance of needs" recognising that competing demands for capacity on the Innes Road corridor arise from development both in and outside the Core/Node Areas. To achieve this balance, development is to be phased such that the combined number of jobs in the Cyrville Core Activity Area and commercial lands east of Highway 417 in the area of Innes and Cyriville Roads not exceed 5,000 until the City has committed to the construction of the Innes-Walkley Connection in its five year Capital Works Programme.

[Richard Eade]

I think you will find that the old OP talked about an Innes-Walkley Connection - There was no mention of a further connection to Hunt Club. The new request was for an EA on the connecting of Hunt Club to the 417 - Staff added in the connection to Walkley, which ran into the Innes-Walkley Connection. I admit that both mentioned a better connection between the east and the airport, but they were previously different items.

There was a previous EA for the Innes-Walkley Connection, approved in Dec. 2003, in accordance with RFP 01303-92535-P05.

[Dado]

This really goes to show how pointless the EA process can be: this scheme (from the Hunt Club/417 interchange to Innes) should never have made it past the initial screening.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Dado

This really goes to show how pointless the EA process can be: this scheme (from the Hunt Club/417 interchange to Innes) should never have made it past the initial screening.

I still agree with this. ('Still' because you made the same comment in entry #7 of this thread.)

I understand that the Innes/Cyrville intersection and others may be at or over capacity, but the need to run a bypass is only there because of poor planning. Innes was the south link out of the east and it was just clogged. Now that there is a problem, I can understand that an EA might say that there is a need to get around that clog, but I don't think it would be a good solution.

[Requin]

http://www.orleansstar.ca/article-45...lair-Road.html

The city is adding a new lane to westbound Hwy 174 from Blair Road and the Hwy 417 east off-ramp.

“The additional lane will help reduce congestion and weaving on the Queensway west of the Blair Road interchange, and improve safety on this stretch of highway,’ Beacon Hill/Cyrville Coun. Michel Bellemare said in a statement.

The work follows eastbound Hwy 174 work finished in 2007 that connected the 417 on-ramp to the Blair Road off-ramp, and extended the Blair and Montréal eastbound on-ramps.‬‪

Other solutions to relieve traffic congestion on the Queensway fall under provincial jurisdiction, Bellemare continued, including the construction of additional lanes on the Queensway from downtown to the east-end split and the realignment of the westbound off-ramp at St. Laurent.‬ Boulevard.

He added that more work is scheduled to start next February when the province is expected to begin replacing the Cyrville overpass to make way for the widening of the Queensway.

The city is chipping in $5 million for the project to accommodate the future widening of Cyrville Road to four lanes, which will include cycling lanes and sidewalks, according to Bellemare.

The Ontario Ministry of Transportation is scheduled to provide more information on the project next week during a meeting of the City of Ottawa Transportation Committee.‬‪

[Richard Eade]

Anyone else think that this sudden interest in widening the 174 (yes it has been in the plan for a while, but it has been ignored for a long time) might be aimed at providing alternative lanes for buses during the conversion of the Transitway?

[waterloowarrior]

Ontario to fund environmental assessment for Ottawa Road 174

City refuses to put up cash for study

BY DAVID GONCZOL, THE OTTAWA CITIZEN MAY 16, 2010 8:02 PM


OTTAWA-Fed up with waiting, the Ontario government has decided to go it alone and fund an environmental assessment of solutions to traffic congestion on the busy stretch of Ottawa Road 174 and County Road 17 in the city’s east end and beyond into Rockland.

But without the city’s participation, the study will only look at the portion of road outside city limits.

Provincial officials have made it clear they have no plans to repeat an offer that was rejected by the city two years ago to fund a study including the city’s portion of the road, which included $80 million from the federal and provincial governments to cover most of any ensuing road construction costs. Since then the city has begun work on improving safety in some areas of Ottawa Road 174 between Trim Road and Canaan Road, but little has been done to ease increasing congestion.

The debate over the years has largely been between people outside the city of Ottawa who want Ottawa Road 174 widened and those who live in Cumberland (which is part of the City of Ottawa) who do not want the road widened into something they fear will resemble the Queensway.

A city of Ottawa study reported last year that there have been 270 collisions between 2003 and 2007, including five fatal collisions on the 12.4 kilometre stretch from Trim Road east to Canaan Road.

Kathleen Wynne, Ontario’s Minister of Transportation, will be in Rockland on Wednesday to announce that the province will proceed without the city.

The City of Ottawa and the province have been at odds since 1997 when the city assumed responsibility for a portion of what was formerly called Provincial Highway 17.

A solution has been difficult to find in part because of strong opposition in Cumberland to widen Ottawa Road 174 from both Cumberland ward councillor Rob Jellett and the Cumberland Village Community Association. The City of Ottawa also contends it should not have to pay for any work because the congestion is caused by motorists east of the city.

Glengarry, Prescott, and Russell MPP Jean Marc Lalonde, MPP for Glengarry, Prescott, and Russell as well as a former mayor of Rockland, said people outside the city of Ottawa can’t wait any longer to fix the traffic problems.

“I’ve been waiting long enough ... I said, lets start the environmental assessment in the Prescott and Russell sector, then we will continue negotiating (with the city of Ottawa),” said Lalonde. He said he hopes the City of Ottawa will ask to join the environmental assessment and that Wynne will change her mind and fund Ottawa’s portion. Wynne said this week there is “no plan” to reconsider the offer.

Jellett said the city has had no warning that the Ontario government was moving ahead.

“This is coming out of the blue to me,” said Jellett, who said the city has assumed for the past two years that costs for any environmental assessment would always be picked up by the province.

“I have no idea how the city is going to respond to that,” said Jellett,

He said city officials had agreed to an environmental assessment but would not fund it or be the ones to lead the study, but would commit city staff to provide technical information. It is expected that the United Counties of Prescott Russell will lead the two-year study with provincial funding, which will focus on 8.4 kilometres of County Road 17 east of Canaan Road, ignoring the 12.4 kilometre stretch to the west where it widens into the four-lane Queensway at Trim Road.

A disappointed Jellett said the whole stretch of road from Trim Road east to Rockland has to be included in the study if it is to include all possible solutions, including the construction of a road diverting traffic around the village of Cumberland to Innes Road.

“Until you look at all the alternatives … you can’t make a proper decision.” said Jellett.

Similarly, Stéphane Parisien, chief administrative officer for the United Counties of Prescott and Russell, said it would be better to study the entire length of congested road from Rockland west to Trim Road but is pleased work will finally begin.

“It’s something we are struggling with as well but it would give us an opportunity to possibly find other ways of redirecting traffic if the city was not participating,” said Parisien.

Rebecca Dufton, president of the Cumberland Village Community Association, said news that the province is moving unilaterally seems to indicate they still simply want to widen what she says is a dangerous road through Cumberland.

“That’s not going to move it ahead at all because they are not going to look at this stretch (through the village of Cumberland), regardless. I don’t think it’s going to get them anywhere. It’s just a waste of time and money,” she said.

She said local residents drive the road in fear because of the many accidents that occur regularly, including a high number of rear end collisions caused when residents slow down to turn into laneways or streets adjoining Ottawa Road 174. She says people commuting to Ottawa who want the road widened in the village of Cumberland simply see their community as a roadway.

“They just think of it as a way to get to work. It’s not going through a community,” she said.

Clarence-Rockland Mayor Richard Lalonde, brother of MPP Jean Marc Lalonde, said local residents have become increasingly frustrated since Ottawa rejected the joint federal-provincial funding to study and widen the roadway. He said there is some talk in his community about blockading the ferry that brings about 800,000 motorists a year from Masson, Que. to Cumberland and onto Ottawa Road 174.

“The only thing we could do is block the entrances to where the ferry is. But, even that, I don’t think it’s fair. We could put people there in the morning and say this is the way we are going to do it. That’s going to stop the people from going to Ottawa but the only people who are going to suffer are the owners of the ferry,” said Lalonde.

He said people east of Ottawa don’t understand why millions of dollars have been spent to improve access to Ottawa for Quebec residents through upgrades to King Edward Avenue while Ontario residents are left facing long lines of traffic east of the city.

“As far as I’m concerned we are all part of Ontario. It’s very frustrating,” said Lalonde.

He said that there is hope that a win by Jim Watson in this year’s mayoralty race will result in City of Ottawa support for the project. Officials in municipalities east of Ottawa point out that Watson was part of the Ontario government cabinet that offered millions to fix the problem two years ago.

“I think the problem will be resolved,” said Lalonde.

Jellett said that interprovincial access through King Edward Avenue was funded mostly by the National Capital Commission. Construction work done by Ottawa to improve King Edward Avenue is intended to deal with problems caused by high volumes of truck traffic in the area.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/On...#ixzz0o8x4YvmQ

[Dado]

I find it interesting that the Province is willing to put up funds to study the portion of the road outside Ottawa but is unwilling to fund the study of the portion inside it. They've already been informed that the City is willing to participate in the study, just not as a funding party.

Perhaps the Province has noticed that the portion outside the City is much easier twinned than the portion inside it. Of course the same was true back when the road was downloaded to the City. A cynic might conclude that's why the Province got rid of the road in the first place.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by Dado

I find it interesting that the Province is willing to put up funds to study the portion of the road outside Ottawa but is unwilling to fund the study of the portion inside it. They've already been informed that the City is willing to participate in the study, just not as a funding party.

Perhaps the Province has noticed that the portion outside the City is much easier twinned than the portion inside it. Of course the same was true back when the road was downloaded to the City. A cynic might conclude that's why the Province got rid of the road in the first place.

It's as political a decision as you're going to get. They get to say to Prescott-Russell that "their portion is studied and ready to go"... so whenever Ottawa becomes "more reasonable" we'll get it all done.

This is one EA that will gather dust for a few decades...

[eemy]

Didn't most of the downloading of roads back then take place because the roads were ostensibly being used primarily to service local residents? It seems the city has a good case to be made that that is not the case and I think the people at the city believe this as well based on their comments regarding the source of the congestion. I suspect this could turn into a bit of a stalemate as well.

[lrt's friend]

Ha, ha! Doesn't this illustrate the stupidity of the Harris decision to download provincial highways to local municipalities? The provincial highways were designed to be the interurban road network in Ontario. Harris decided to save money and force these interurban roads into municipal roads. This decision as illustrated by the 174 dilemma has taken away power from the province in order to improve the transportation network across municipal boundaries. While Highway 7 improvements are moving forward since Highway 7 was not downloaded, improvements in the east end will be very difficult to implement no matter how much they are needed. I also wish to point out that at least locally, the former provincial highways have not been maintained to the same degree as formerly. Needed repaving is not occuring on time resulting in increasingly rough roads. I would assume that this is a province wide problem and as time progresses, our Ontario road network will decline.

[eternallyme]

They need to re-upload Regional Roads 174/17 from Hawkesbury to Ottawa as a provincial highway. Of course, Highway 7 (and 17W) were slow to get going as well...

[citizen j]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The city will likely force the province to fund the Cumberland portion or retake responsibility for the entire stretch of highway simply by refusing to do anything. And rightly so. If it is just a local road (rather than a provincially significant one), then the city is justified in treating it as such, and "local" traffic levels east of Orleans don't necessitate twinning. At least not from the perspective of "local" taxpayers in the City of Ottawa.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Ha, ha! Doesn't this illustrate the stupidity of the Harris decision to download provincial highways to local municipalities?

I don't think this has disproved the concept in general, just this instance.

Of the top of my head, downloading Hwy 15 south of Hwy 401 to Kingston made perfect sense, as did downloading Hwy 15 north of Carleton Place. Downloading Highway 43 also makes sense since most of the use of that road is local (it's not being used for travel between Toronto and Montreal, for example). Highway 2, even though it has a history to it, simply wasn't a major interurban road any more. On the whole, I'd say the concept was appropriate by better matching those who benefit with those who pay.

But Hwy 17 is proving to be a different matter. Here we've got a pressure to twin a portion of this road within Ottawa despite the lack of local traffic sufficient to justify such a widening at local taxpayers' expense at this point in time. That would seem to make it a candidate for uploading or at the least some degree of provincial involvement, whether by direct provincial funding or by enabling a cross-border funding from Russell County (which of course they can't or won't do, which is basically the critique of unsupported "beggar-thy-neighbour" suburban/exurban development).

The provincial highways were designed to be the interurban road network in Ontario. Harris decided to save money and force these interurban roads into municipal roads. This decision as illustrated by the 174 dilemma has taken away power from the province in order to improve the transportation network across municipal boundaries

They've still got all the power they need, and they've always got the lever of funding. If the province puts up the cash, it will be done. It's the same as if the road were still provincial. The only real difference now is that the province can play politics and whine about Ottawa, whereas they couldn't before.

While Highway 7 improvements are moving forward since Highway 7 was not downloaded, improvements in the east end will be very difficult to implement no matter how much they are needed. I also wish to point out that at least locally, the former provincial highways have not been maintained to the same degree as formerly. Needed repaving is not occuring on time resulting in increasingly rough roads. I would assume that this is a province wide problem and as time progresses, our Ontario road network will decline.

This is an indication of the lack of sufficient rural tax base to support the roads used in rural areas. For years rural areas have benefited from urban areas subsidizing their roads. It's a bit ironic that the Harris government brought an end to this, though it is arguably in line with market principles of user pay.

[c_speed3108]

I used to live near this thing before I moved closer in... I basically never traveled on since it sorta unsafe: posted 90k facing head on with sharp bends...no thanks...but wait many drive over the speed limit so....yah I will pass on being in a over 200km/h head on!

The number of homes and other things on this highway would make turning it into a divided limited access high virtually impossible. (or the expropriations would be massively expensive since you would be expropriating huge new mansions on water front no less)

The best this could hope for is something along the lines of Innes Rd. - in which case it would make far more sense to extend Innes rd and improve Trim.

That said, even if you could widen this thing somehow to a 4 lane divided highway, the question all always asked was the following:

If a 4 lane highway is really need between Rockland and Orleans, exactly how many lanes should the highway have from Orleans to the split?

Consequently it would make sense in terms of traffic flows to focus on the highway further in and just make safety improvement like a median on the 174 east of Trim.

The 174 could have been widened to 4 lanes when they decided a 4 - lane highway to Montreal was needed. They choose to build that 4 lane highway (aka 417) elsewhere for a good reason - the river route does not work.

[Richard Eade]

Is the City creating a dangerous situation by adding the extra lane section to the north side of the OR174?

Currently traffic from Blair Road on-ramp merges into the two west-bound lanes of the OR174. The traffic then travels in a steady flow until it reaches the off-ramp for the east-bound 417. More than 500 metres separates the on-ramp from the off-ramp, allowing drivers to change into the appropriate lane. Because there is no forced cross-over of lanes within a short distance, the traffic movements along this stretch of the OR174 would not be considered Weaving; there is a merge, and then later traffic diverges.



The City is planning to connect the Blair on-ramp to the east-bound 417 off-ramp with an additional lane. Since the OR174 east of Blair only has two east-bound lanes, this new third lane will be clear for the people entering from the Blair on-ramp; thus, the majority of people will likely stay in this clear lane instead of changing into a crowded lane. As the traffic in the new lane approaches the off-ramp for the east-bound 417, through traffic will be forced to merge into the more crowded lanes to the left. I believe that most people will try to stay in the clear lane as long as they can. This pushes the merge point very close to the divergence point for the 417. Traffic heading for the east-bound 417 will have the choice of moving right into the new lane earlier than the current start of the off-ramp, but many will not change lanes until closer to the exit. Now we have a crossing of vehicles in a short space; vehicles moving right to avoid exiting, and those moving right to leave the OR174. Now we have a Weaving problem. If the number of people leaving the OR174 is small, then this Weaving might be acceptable.



Now, assuming the MTO work is done before the NCC gets the Aviation Parkway dedicated to an inter-provincial Bridge link, or that the Inter-provincial Bridge goes in a different location, then the MTO plans to extend the St. Laurent off-ramp to meet the east-bound 417 off-ramp*. In this scenario, the traffic which wants to travel east on the 417 (i.e., the traffic leaving the OR174 at this interchange) AND the traffic which wants to exit onto St. Laurent boulevard or go to the Mall will all be diverging where the majority of Blair traffic is trying to merge. This will increase the amount of Weaving to the point of being a problem.



* For those who have not been following the MTO’s Plan, they plan to extend the St. Laurent off-ramp and segregate it from the 417/OR174 with a concrete barrier. This is to prevent vehicles from arriving along the 417 and exiting on the St. Laurent off-ramp. This handles their Weaving problem where vehicles need to cross several lanes of the 417/OR174 to get to the off-ramp.



If the Aviation Parkway is selected as the route to the new Inter-provincial Bridge, a new ramp from the Aviation Parkway will replace the St. Laurent off-ramp extension and there will no longer be an exit to St. Laurent from the east. People would use the Aviation Parkway to Ogilvie Road to get to St. Laurent Boulevard.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

I used to live near this thing before I moved closer in... I basically never traveled on since it sorta unsafe: posted 90k facing head on with sharp bends...no thanks...but wait many drive over the speed limit so....yah I will pass on being in a over 200km/h head on!

The number of homes and other things on this highway would make turning it into a divided limited access high virtually impossible. (or the expropriations would be massively expensive since you would be expropriating huge new mansions on water front no less)

The best this could hope for is something along the lines of Innes Rd. - in which case it would make far more sense to extend Innes rd and improve Trim.

That said, even if you could widen this thing somehow to a 4 lane divided highway, the question all always asked was the following:

If a 4 lane highway is really need between Rockland and Orleans, exactly how many lanes should the highway have from Orleans to the split?

Consequently it would make sense in terms of traffic flows to focus on the highway further in and just make safety improvement like a median on the 174 east of Trim.

The 174 could have been widened to 4 lanes when they decided a 4 - lane highway to Montreal was needed. They choose to build that 4 lane highway (aka 417) elsewhere for a good reason - the river route does not work.

A limited-access expressway or freeway would require a whole new alignment there. However, since Highway 417 provides a parallel route for commercial and long-distance traffic, I don't think a freeway is warranted there until traffic counts become REALLY high (i.e. not likely for a long time). I would recommend keeping the same general alignment (the speed limit should remain as it is now and major intersections should remain signalized), but with 4 or 5 lanes in one of several configurations:

1) 4 lanes divided with concrete median barrier (access right-in, right-out only except at certain important intersections)

2) 4 lanes undivided, no change to access

3) 5 lanes undivided with central median barrier, no change to access

IMO, option 3 is best followed by option 1.

It is a fairly local route, so downloading made some sense in that way. The problem is that the two jurisdictions are on totally different planets - it is like Ottawa is trying to anger Prescott-Russell and especially Clarence-Rockland for their own gain. If the province needs to take it back, then they should.

[lrt's friend]

Of the top of my head, downloading Hwy 15 south of Hwy 401 to Kingston made perfect sense, as did downloading Hwy 15 north of Carleton Place. Downloading Highway 43 also makes sense since most of the use of that road is local (it's not being used for travel between Toronto and Montreal, for example). Highway 2, even though it has a history to it, simply wasn't a major interurban road any more. On the whole, I'd say the concept was appropriate by better matching those who benefit with those who pay.

I think that this is a sad statement that effectively our highways should only be a means to get between major cities. It really illustrates the decline of rural Ontario.

It is also sad that our highways should end at another highway instead of in the city centre, as your example of Highway 15 presents. Whatever happened to concept that highway designations were designed to help the traveling public to get to their destination? Who really cares who is paying for the road?

[RTWAP]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Is the City creating a dangerous situation by adding the extra lane section to the north side of the OR174?

Currently traffic from Blair Road on-ramp merges into the two west-bound lanes of the OR174. The traffic then travels in a steady flow until it reaches the off-ramp for the east-bound 417. More than 500 metres separates the on-ramp from the off-ramp, allowing drivers to change into the appropriate lane. Because there is no forced cross-over of lanes within a short distance, the traffic movements along this stretch of the OR174 would not be considered Weaving; there is a merge, and then later traffic diverges.



The City is planning to connect the Blair on-ramp to the east-bound 417 off-ramp with an additional lane. Since the OR174 east of Blair only has two east-bound lanes, this new third lane will be clear for the people entering from the Blair on-ramp; thus, the majority of people will likely stay in this clear lane instead of changing into a crowded lane. As the traffic in the new lane approaches the off-ramp for the east-bound 417, through traffic will be forced to merge into the more crowded lanes to the left. I believe that most people will try to stay in the clear lane as long as they can. This pushes the merge point very close to the divergence point for the 417. Traffic heading for the east-bound 417 will have the choice of moving right into the new lane earlier than the current start of the off-ramp, but many will not change lanes until closer to the exit. Now we have a crossing of vehicles in a short space; vehicles moving right to avoid exiting, and those moving right to leave the OR174. Now we have a Weaving problem. If the number of people leaving the OR174 is small, then this Weaving might be acceptable.



Now, assuming the MTO work is done before the NCC gets the Aviation Parkway dedicated to an inter-provincial Bridge link, or that the Inter-provincial Bridge goes in a different location, then the MTO plans to extend the St. Laurent off-ramp to meet the east-bound 417 off-ramp*. In this scenario, the traffic which wants to travel east on the 417 (i.e., the traffic leaving the OR174 at this interchange) AND the traffic which wants to exit onto St. Laurent boulevard or go to the Mall will all be diverging where the majority of Blair traffic is trying to merge. This will increase the amount of Weaving to the point of being a problem.



* For those who have not been following the MTO’s Plan, they plan to extend the St. Laurent off-ramp and segregate it from the 417/OR174 with a concrete barrier. This is to prevent vehicles from arriving along the 417 and exiting on the St. Laurent off-ramp. This handles their Weaving problem where vehicles need to cross several lanes of the 417/OR174 to get to the off-ramp.



If the Aviation Parkway is selected as the route to the new Inter-provincial Bridge, a new ramp from the Aviation Parkway will replace the St. Laurent off-ramp extension and there will no longer be an exit to St. Laurent from the east. People would use the Aviation Parkway to Ogilvie Road to get to St. Laurent Boulevard.

I'm not a fan of extended on an off ramps that create additional lanes. They don't really improve capacity because you're improving flow away from the bottlenecks (unless there is actually high traffic entering the highway and then leaving one exit later). But they do reward drivers who pop into the 'merge' lane for hundreds of meters and then merge again, jumping 40 or 50 cars in the process.

Basically, I'm not a fan of road designs that punish the law-abiding and reward the rule-breakers. It's corrosive to our sense of fairness and justice.

It reminds me of the priority lane on the Champlain bridge. I've been using it quite a bit lately with my kids during rush hour. Probably 90% of the cars in it are single occupancy. If you're not going to enforce the rule then don't bother having it? It's worse than no rule at all.

Back to the highway plan, it sure sounds screwed up. Hard to believe that they're going to route all the westbound exiting St. Laurent traffic onto Oglivie road.

[Lakche]

I believe this is the plan they settled on:

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/eng...pdf/SL-N-3.pdf

TPA - Construct a barrier to prevent traffic from 417 exiting at St. Laurent. Access for 417 via Aviation Parkway and Ogilvie Road. Access from OR 174 westbound via a new separate ramp to be built between the Queensway and Transitway


I guess they expect drivers to exit at Aviation, turn on Ogilvie, and then access St. Laurent from there.

Having sat through the bottleneck at the split every morning on my way into work, very rarely did I witness a driver coming from 417 westbound merge across 3 lanes to exit at St. Laurent. When I did, it was usually a truck.