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  #41  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2015, 7:10 PM
KPELLY KPELLY is offline
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Originally Posted by djh View Post
If hockey arenas can make 14' tall barriers that allow a perfectly good view, why can't bridges do the same thing?
I agree with this, except I suspect the reason they don't do this is because it would get vandalized very quickly.
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  #42  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2015, 7:11 PM
Vin Vin is offline
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Originally Posted by djh View Post
If hockey arenas can make 14' tall barriers that allow a perfectly good view, why can't bridges do the same thing?
If they charge bridge toll rates like hockey tickets, then yeah we can hire full-time janitors to clean those glass panels.
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  #43  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2015, 7:14 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is online now
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
What's not to love? I can't wait to get some of them 9-foot metal bars on Burrard Bridge too in 2016. The views of English Bay and False Creek are going to be sweeeeet! And when we get those beauties on Granville Bridge too, it's going to be urban paradise. Van City lifestyle all the way baby.
...................
Who needs this 83-year old view when you can have some of them beautiful progressive bars?
Your sarcasm could burn holes through steel! Seriousl, maybe a goofy idea, but if we HAVE TO HAVE suicide bars, could a design element be incorporated to make them look less harsh?

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Originally Posted by KPELLY View Post
This is one of the dumbest projects I've ever seen in Vancouver. 0.7 per year??? They could probably prevent 10-20x more suicides per year if this money went to suicide prevention programs and counselling.

Being able to drive or walk over the bridge and take in the views is one of the great unique things about the city. .....
I think as many suicides might occur on Skytrain. Don't quote me, but I've heard Main Street Sceince world outbound is/was notorious for people jumping.
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  #44  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2015, 2:59 PM
EdinVan EdinVan is offline
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Originally Posted by itinerant View Post
I am late to this topic on the proposed suicide prevention barriers on the Burrard bridge, and find it reprehensible that Council has approved this without wider (any?) public consultation as a last-minute addition. My immediate reactions are: there is no good-looking way to do this; and I reject the idea that they should be there at all.

I am insulted by the notion of "means" prevention. While I cannot argue the good intentions or virtue of saving a life when someone is in distress, I find it increasingly the case that some overzealous people in our society find it necessary to impose their ideas of safety that assume we cannot be responsible for ourselves. Safety against accidents is reasonable. Deterrents to self-harm seem instead to deflect the liability.

Aesthetics are important. The fenced tunnel that is now the second narrows road crossing experience is abysmal. Help boxes on Lions Gate bridge are probably a great idea that we should apply here rather than allowing ourselves to be caged in like this.

I urge anyone here who has a voice with council or influence with the city to advocate against this addition to this bridge or any other.
Many, many people have strongly advocated against this, but council has insisted that it must be done. Their reasoning is that even if the barriers do not lower the overall suicide rate (which is what all existing research shows), it is better to err on the side of caution because the barriers "might" save lives. I find that a very bizarre rationale for approving projects that are not only very expensive, but significantly detract from residents' enjoyment of public spaces. By this reasoning, one could justify pretty much any prevention measures, no matter how far-fetched.

Regarding Vancouver Coastal Health, it was reported that they were the ones who pushed for this at the very last minute, although Council probably saw it as a great way to win support for the other bridge improvements (i.e., how can one say no to the bridge revitalization when it includes measures to help the mentally ill?). It's all seems like PR; it has nothing to do with concern about the mentally ill.

Last edited by EdinVan; Sep 4, 2015 at 3:37 AM.
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  #45  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2015, 3:01 PM
EdinVan EdinVan is offline
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Originally Posted by KPELLY View Post
Has there been any petitions or anything to try and stop this?
No time. It was all rushed at the last minute by VCH and the City -- after public consultations on other aspects of the bridge improvements had already concluded. The barriers had not been mentioned in any of the materials shown to the public during the consultation period.

Last edited by EdinVan; Sep 4, 2015 at 3:01 AM.
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  #46  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2015, 3:04 PM
EdinVan EdinVan is offline
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Originally Posted by djh View Post
More seriously is it possible to build a fence made from say perspex panels? If this thing is a fait acoompli, then at least we could reduce the visual distraction, no?
One councillor insisted that a highly visible barrier should be used in order to show suicidal people that Vancouver "cares" about them.

Look forward to more "caring" of this type in the future.

Last edited by EdinVan; Sep 4, 2015 at 3:38 AM.
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  #47  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2015, 3:42 PM
Vin Vin is offline
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If they care about people committing suicide, why do they then allow injection sites in the downtown Eastside? Slow death is more acceptable?
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  #48  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2015, 2:22 AM
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Prometheus Prometheus is offline
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Originally Posted by djmk View Post

before the bars...only the hardiest of walkers and cyclist would dare use it...I would argue that the bridge is better and now more people can appreciate the view.
As someone already pointed out, the installation of 9-foot suicide bars have no causal relationship to path widening and normal railing improvements (other than increasing the cost of the latter and destroying the once unobstructed view).

And regarding that view (which will be coming soon to a Burrard Bridge near you Vancouverites):

After:



Before:




After:



Before:




After:



Before:




And to get an idea of how tall and oppressive these prison-like bars are in person, remember that the Google street view camera towers about 5 feet over the heads of pedestrians and drivers:


Source: http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/05/16...eet-view-car/#

Last edited by Prometheus; Sep 4, 2015 at 3:03 AM.
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  #49  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2015, 3:00 AM
EdinVan EdinVan is offline
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Staff insists that the bars on the Burrard Bridge will be "light and airy". I cannot picture that at all.

By the way, for those interested, here is the video of the Council meeting. The discussion got very heated towards the end. I wish there had been less mud-slinging and fake sobbing and more debate about the evidence for the effectiveness of these barriers in saving lives (for which there is actually none, contrary to what the hand-picked speakers had proclaimed and contrary to what the editor of the North Shore News indicated). NPA was in opposition to the whole project, but didn't seem to do a great job questioning the speakers; they were often indirect and didn't question the evidence that was presented.

http://civic.neulion.com/cityofvanco...id=3494220,004

http://civic.neulion.com/cityofvanco...id=3494220,005

Last edited by EdinVan; Sep 4, 2015 at 3:45 AM.
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  #50  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2015, 3:21 AM
EdinVan EdinVan is offline
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
If they care about people committing suicide, why do they then allow injection sites in the downtown Eastside? Slow death is more acceptable?
This may be of interest. It suggests a coziness between VCH and the City

Doctors having major effect on Vancouver City policy
Vancouver Courier, August 6, 2015
http://www.vancourier.com/news/docto...licy-1.2023326

Last edited by EdinVan; Sep 4, 2015 at 3:42 AM.
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  #51  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2015, 1:19 AM
st7860 st7860 is offline
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The skytrain could do with some barriers as well since there has been quite a few 'medical emergencies' this past year.
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  #52  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2015, 4:43 AM
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mezzanine mezzanine is offline
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Where are people getting stats WRT bridge fences and suicide prevention?

In 6 years (06-12) 26 people jumped to their deaths from the lions gate bridge. Jumping off a bridge for suicide is inherently impulsive and the BC coroners service and public health officials have recommended them at 5 bridges in metro (including Burrard) after reviewing the evidence.

If you distrust the BC coroners service and public health officials, well, [shrugs].

At least barriers will prevent the Ironworkers Bridge from being closed for 6 hours again.
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  #53  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2015, 7:23 PM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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Originally Posted by EdinVan View Post
This may be of interest. It suggests a coziness between VCH and the City

Doctors having major effect on Vancouver City policy
Vancouver Courier, August 6, 2015
http://www.vancourier.com/news/docto...licy-1.2023326
Thanks for posting that. Seems funny that only the small independent newspapers seem to be willing to ask the tough questions. Oue major papers seem content on just printing puff pieces.
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  #54  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2015, 6:48 AM
EdinVan EdinVan is offline
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Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post
Where are people getting stats WRT bridge fences and suicide prevention?

In 6 years (06-12) 26 people jumped to their deaths from the lions gate bridge. Jumping off a bridge for suicide is inherently impulsive and the BC coroners service and public health officials have recommended them at 5 bridges in metro (including Burrard) after reviewing the evidence.

If you distrust the BC coroners service and public health officials, well, [shrugs].
The Medical Officer has based his recommendations on other agencies' recommendations, which are based on incorrect interpretations of studies. If you do a thorough literature review on this topic, you will see where the weight of the evidence stands (ie, there's no evidence that barriers actually prevent suicides). It's important to be an intelligent, critical consumer of information and not take someone's word for something just because they have an MD or PhD after their name.

Anyway, for anyone who's interested, there is now a petition, complete with pics of the two barrier designs that are being considered:

https://www.change.org/p/mayor-grego...burrard-bridge

Last edited by EdinVan; Sep 16, 2015 at 11:40 AM.
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  #55  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2015, 9:14 PM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
Its a fair amount. At a rate of about 10 people per 100k per year in BC that would mean roughly 0.8% of all suicides in BC were off the lions gate bridge. (ignoring the fact there are probably more suicides in the north skewing the number up for the whole province). ***Looking at these numbers I found out Nunavut has a serious problem with 71 people per 100k per year killing them selves. Just insane. For males it is 114.
This is a great point, and I just wanted to expand on this comment.

I think putting up suicide barriers on the Burrard bridge lacks any kind of proportionality.

Is trying to prevent suicides a noble idea? Yes.

Is putting up barriers on the bridge going to prevent suicides? Yes.

Is spending a large amount of money to prevent suicides on the Burrard Bridge going to significantly alter the overall rate of suicides in the province? No.

Could spending the money on other resources for the mentally ill prevent a similar number (or more) suicides? Yes.

To me, it just smacks of white privileged. Here we are, spending all this money to save less than 1 person a year who has poor impulse control.

Meanwhile we shun and label people with mental health problems that seriously contemplate suicide.

We will spend millions build a fence to save a person from a single bad decision; yet we will make people pay for prescriptions for anti-depressants.

We will pay to place suicide phones along the bridge that are manned 24 hours a day to talk people out of suicide; but if you want to talk to a psychiatrist that's $100/hour.

There is 0.7 suicides per year off this bridge; yet the average annual rate for suicides by first nations male youth is 126 per 100,000 (compared to 24 per 100,000 for non-Aboriginal males) and for First Nations females the suicide rate is 35 per 100,000 (compared to only 5 per 100,000 for non-Aboriginal females).

All the tear jerk stories regarding bridge suicides (and they really are, that's not sarcasm) are about how the victim had every thing to live for. Everything was okay in their lives, but one bad decision lead them to the bridge, and if only there was a multi million dollar fence to save their lives...

Yet most people with serious mental problems, who take their lives quietly in their homes, after hundreds of hours of wallowing in anxiety or depression, are completely ignored in our society (or worse, outcast and marginalized by the rest of us). We have huge print stories about the few cases that end in a public way, but nothing about the 500 other people who die each year.

We will spend millions to save that regular person from one mistake, yet make it difficult to be mentally ill.

Now, you might say it's only $3.5 million, and if it saves lives I'm making too big deal about it. But $3.5 million could go a long way in other programs. $3.5 million would buy a lot of psychiatrist hours. It might help get people off the streets. It might help aboriginals feel less disenfranchised. It might help people who don't even realize they have a problem and get them to stop self medicating. It could be spent on public awareness to make us all treat people with mental health problems with more respect and dignity.

But at the end of the day, I can't help but feel like this is done entirely because it has a small yet tangible result (0.7 suicides vs 0 is technically measurable) and politicians can stand in front of it for pictures and congratulate themselves on a job well done, while hundreds of other people still kill themselves in less "glamorous" ways and the rest of us are left in a world that is pretty much exactly the same but with a worse view.
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  #56  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2015, 11:02 PM
Sheba Sheba is offline
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
Is trying to prevent suicides a noble idea? Yes.

Is spending a large amount of money to prevent suicides on the Burrard Bridge going to significantly alter the overall rate of suicides in the province? No.

Could spending the money on other resources for the mentally ill prevent a similar number (or more) suicides? Yes.

All the tear jerk stories regarding bridge suicides (and they really are, that's not sarcasm) are about how the victim had every thing to live for. Everything was okay in their lives, but one bad decision lead them to the bridge, and if only there was a multi million dollar fence to save their lives...

Yet most people with serious mental problems, who take their lives quietly in their homes, after hundreds of hours of wallowing in anxiety or depression, are completely ignored in our society (or worse, outcast and marginalized by the rest of us). We have huge print stories about the few cases that end in a public way, but nothing about the 500 other people who die each year.

We will spend millions to save that regular person from one mistake, yet make it difficult to be mentally ill.

Now, you might say it's only $3.5 million, and if it saves lives I'm making too big deal about it. But $3.5 million could go a long way in other programs. $3.5 million would buy a lot of psychiatrist hours. It might help get people off the streets. It might help aboriginals feel less disenfranchised. It might help people who don't even realize they have a problem and get them to stop self medicating. It could be spent on public awareness to make us all treat people with mental health problems with more respect and dignity.


I had to highlight this. I suffer from seasonal depression. I can't not treat it as I had times where I'd be sitting in a darkened room staring at the wall for hours. Only problem is that most of the meds don't work on me, and I initially had to jump through hoops for the one that did. But... I had to take a really low dose of it or I'd have major insomnia problems, plus it aggravated my main condition. Oh what fun!

I had coverage for pills but I couldn't get coverage for anything else. I had doctors asking for years about getting me a light box. Finally once I got the disability designation I saved up and bought one - and voila I don't have to take pills anymore (which is saving the gov a bunch of money - I did basic math and it would cost the equivalent of about 2 winters). Since then I've picked up a dawn simulator and Hue lights (or at least that's my excuse for why I got them ).

If they'd thought ahead at all they would have figured out that spending a bit of money up front would save them a lot more money than nickle and dimeing me. Some things never changes...
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  #57  
Old Posted May 25, 2016, 2:12 AM
EdinVan EdinVan is offline
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Motion to Reconsider Burrard Bridge Suicide Barriers

As a result of the petition against the plan to add suicide barriers on the Burrard Bridge, a motion has been put before Council asking for a review of the decision. The motion will be presented on June 1, with speakers probably being heard on June 2. If anyone has anything to say about the barriers, they can sign up to speak in front of Council. The deadline to sign up for the speaker's list is Monday. You can also write to Council at mayorandcouncil@vancouver.ca

The motion is here: https://www.change.org/p/mayor-grego...dge/u/16698491

Information about speaking at Council is here: http://vancouver.ca/your-government/...-meetings.aspx
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  #58  
Old Posted May 25, 2016, 5:42 AM
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dleung dleung is offline
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Oh nice, this is the first time I feel like I made a difference by signing a petition lol
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  #59  
Old Posted May 25, 2016, 6:23 AM
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Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
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Originally Posted by dleung View Post
Oh nice, this is the first time I feel like I made a difference by signing a petition lol
Seriously, glad they're actually listening now.

Last edited by Migrant_Coconut; May 25, 2016 at 9:22 AM.
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