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  #41  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2012, 12:09 PM
Alon Alon is offline
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If your capacity is given as 30 trains per day, it's not much of a trunk line. The existing signals in the tunnels support a rush-hour burst of 24 tph. What I'm talking about is increasing that to about 30 tph, which is feasible, and happens on the Berlin S-Bahn, Munich S-Bahn, and Paris RER, all of which are mainline systems.

There aren't enough people in Monmouth, Ocean, and the coastal parts of Middlesex working in New York and Newark to put 90,000-120,000 daily riders on a line. If everyone who currently takes the NEC and the North Jersey Coast Line switched then sure, but then what's the point? Direct train service to Toms River has some benefits, but they're far down the line.

It is just not true that the alternative to ticket punchers is faregates. New Jersey isn't Tokyo and never will be; Swiss or German POP is going to work just fine for its rail ridership. Of course NJT does the worst of both worlds, with the internal faregates at Secaucus and the constrained vertical circulation... even the LIRR, not normally a very competent organization, does this better, with timed cross-platform transfers at Jamaica.

Most reorganizations that Americans think are impossible or very difficult or will take a long time are actually easy when done by people who know what they're doing. SEPTA was going to complete them very quickly, until the workers rebelled (who are those stupid European immigrants to tell us how to run a railroad? What was good for my grandfather is good for me!).
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  #42  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2012, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alon View Post
If your capacity is given as 30 trains per day, it's not much of a trunk line. The existing signals in the tunnels support a rush-hour burst of 24 tph. What I'm talking about is increasing that to about 30 tph, which is feasible, and happens on the Berlin S-Bahn, Munich S-Bahn, and Paris RER, all of which are mainline systems.

There aren't enough people in Monmouth, Ocean, and the coastal parts of Middlesex working in New York and Newark to put 90,000-120,000 daily riders on a line. If everyone who currently takes the NEC and the North Jersey Coast Line switched then sure, but then what's the point? Direct train service to Toms River has some benefits, but they're far down the line.

It is just not true that the alternative to ticket punchers is faregates. New Jersey isn't Tokyo and never will be; Swiss or German POP is going to work just fine for its rail ridership. Of course NJT does the worst of both worlds, with the internal faregates at Secaucus and the constrained vertical circulation... even the LIRR, not normally a very competent organization, does this better, with timed cross-platform transfers at Jamaica.

Most reorganizations that Americans think are impossible or very difficult or will take a long time are actually easy when done by people who know what they're doing. SEPTA was going to complete them very quickly, until the workers rebelled (who are those stupid European immigrants to tell us how to run a railroad? What was good for my grandfather is good for me!).
30 trains a day is about the max on branches at the moment , the trunks have about 240 a day....they can handle double that due upgrades in recent years. So 30TPH on trunks is doable and done on the Morristown line and Harlem lines...along with NEC.


The MOM Network will service a population of 1.5 Million , New Job Markets will be opened to Rail commuting from Central Jersey like New Brunswick , Princeton , Trenton , Edison , Metropark , Rahway , Elizabeth and the Amboys alll have an additional 250,000 jobs most commuters drive to those jobs and live in the MOM area. That part of NJ is the fastest growing section of the state why neglect it? I understand the Inner areas need investment , but these outer areas should not be neglected there starting to become dense aswell like everything in this state. The Inner Areas will be getting more Light Rail and Busway later this decade...which will better service them.
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  #43  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2012, 2:19 PM
Alon Alon is offline
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NJT is incapable of serving diagonal commutes right now - the frequencies suck, the punctuality sucks, the idea of timed transfers is foreign to it, etc. Forget about it. It can't even do a transfer at Secaucus toward Manhattan right. Even with vastly better industry practices, MOM isn't going to serve any of those diagonal commutes, because at current driving and parking prices in Princeton, only eco-martyrs like me are going to try using the transit system. And eco-martyrs like me don't live in Ocean County. Maybe if Princeton Junction and New Brunswick looked like this then it would work.

The trains-per-day limit just shows you how screwed up American railroad practices are - they're lifted entirely from freight. Everywhere else in the world, including US transit systems that are not mainline rail, people think in tph. If for some reason you can only run 20 tph at rush hour, you could easily do 240 trains per day in each direction. Capacity limits are measured in terms of headways and schedule maintenance, and those work entirely in tph terms. Tpd matter only if your trains need to be stabled somewhere midday (i.e. your off-peak frequencies suck so much they won't just turn around and keep earning revenue) or if you can't punctually maintain your peak feasible capacity.

Nowhere on NJT, or Metro-North, or the LIRR, is 30 tph done on a double-track line (one-way running doesn't count). Metro-North runs 50 tph into Grand Central, but insists on running trains 3-and-1 on the trunk instead of 2-and-2. I'm told that Amtrak is forced to single-track at rush hour because the LIRR thinks that its ~38 tph into Penn Station can't fit into a 2-and-2 situation. Peak traffic through the Hudson is 24 tph, and New Jersey thinks it can't add any trains.
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  #44  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 3:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Alon View Post
NJT is incapable of serving diagonal commutes right now - the frequencies suck, the punctuality sucks, the idea of timed transfers is foreign to it, etc. Forget about it. It can't even do a transfer at Secaucus toward Manhattan right. Even with vastly better industry practices, MOM isn't going to serve any of those diagonal commutes, because at current driving and parking prices in Princeton, only eco-martyrs like me are going to try using the transit system. And eco-martyrs like me don't live in Ocean County. Maybe if Princeton Junction and New Brunswick looked like this then it would work.

The trains-per-day limit just shows you how screwed up American railroad practices are - they're lifted entirely from freight. Everywhere else in the world, including US transit systems that are not mainline rail, people think in tph. If for some reason you can only run 20 tph at rush hour, you could easily do 240 trains per day in each direction. Capacity limits are measured in terms of headways and schedule maintenance, and those work entirely in tph terms. Tpd matter only if your trains need to be stabled somewhere midday (i.e. your off-peak frequencies suck so much they won't just turn around and keep earning revenue) or if you can't punctually maintain your peak feasible capacity.

Nowhere on NJT, or Metro-North, or the LIRR, is 30 tph done on a double-track line (one-way running doesn't count). Metro-North runs 50 tph into Grand Central, but insists on running trains 3-and-1 on the trunk instead of 2-and-2. I'm told that Amtrak is forced to single-track at rush hour because the LIRR thinks that its ~38 tph into Penn Station can't fit into a 2-and-2 situation. Peak traffic through the Hudson is 24 tph, and New Jersey thinks it can't add any trains.
The Frequencies are slowly improving , a decade ago they were horrible but there is still room for improvement without a doubt. The County Estimates are never wrong and that part of the state is growing by 250,000 a decade , too ignore it and push it onto already overcrowded stations is a mistake and a bad one. MOM also hits some of the most popular shore line communities....like Toms River and the Bays and inlets near Forked River. The Sprawl is starting to become dense , so another reason to extend Rail....which would encourage smart growth. By the End of the Decade New Brunswick will be a dense steaming metropolis high rises and skyscrapers are under construction or planned for Downtown. A Light Rail line will join the MOM to the Raritan Valley line and West Trenton line , sealing the Central Jersey Transit network.

They've improved there frequencies but have a long way to go...Northeastern systems are way ahead of the rest of the Country and Canada....in the commuter rail dept.

Actually there are areas that get 30tph , not all trains are counted , some are deadheads and others are Express which don't always appear on the timetables....but listening to a scanner will show you there are more trains moved...

As for Transfers there lined up on the LIRR , MNRR , and NJT with 5-10 minutes between with certain lines , but mostly cross platform or level change. Same with Light Rail , PATH and Subway everything is timed to line up and meet....no real issues there at least at Secaucus JCT , Jamaica , Woodside , Newark Penn , Stamford , Trenton , Rahway and a few other stations...


Whens the last time you actually used our network? It sounds like you've never ridden anything except the NEC....and whens the last time you've driven around NJ?
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  #45  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 8:06 AM
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Ive decided too add NJT's Light Rail Proposals along with streetcar and Busway crap to show that they are committed to the Urban areas. I think it will meet your needs and then some , the Busways are underway , the LRT and Heavy Rail have stalled due to crap....but pressure down the road will set them back on track. Newark , Harrison , Kearny , Bloomfield , The Oranges and Monticlair all have some sort of large or mid sized TOD underway with TOD plans. So I expect the LRT to start up later this decade...NJT upgraded the system and bought some ROW in prep. The Newark Extension into the Oranges should go first seeing there's alot of support for that and then the Newark - Paterson line. The Infill stations should be built by 2025. This is just the Newark Division , although its the best plan , the NJ Gold Coast plan is messy and disappointing...but what else is new...

Newark Divison

Newark Light Rail
Main line
Newark Penn station
Military Park
Washington Street
Warren Street
Norfolk Street
Orange Street
Park Ave
Bloomfield Ave
Davenport Ave
Branch Brook Park
Silver Lake
Grove Street
Wateseeing Ave Transit Center
Glenwood Ave
Thomas Boulevard
High Street
Thomas Edison Historic Site / Lakeside Ave
Park Ave


Board Street Branch
Newark Penn station
NJPAC / centre street
Atlantic Street / Washington Park
Newark Board Street


Newark - Paterson Light Rail
Newark Penn station
NJPAC / centre street
Atlantic Street / Washington Park
Newark Board Street
Clay Street
3rd Ave
Grafton Ave
Forest Hill Interchange
Rutgers Street
Joralemon Street
Greylock
Washington Ave
Passaic Ave
North Franklin Ave
Kingsland Street
Allwood
Van Houten Ave
US 46 Park & Ride
Main Street - St. Joesph's Hospital
21St Ave
Paterson Transit Center
Main Street - Downtown
Spruce Street
Paterson Great Falls National Historical Park


Cross Essex Light Rail
Main Street
Thomas Edison Historic Site / Lakeside Ave
Thomas Boulevard
Glenwood Ave
Wateseeing Transit Center

Grove Street
Silver Lake
Branch Brook North
Mount Prospect Ave
Forest Hill Interchange
Passaic Road
Kearny Ave
Schuyler Ave
Kearny Transit Center



Bloomfield Branch
Bay Street
Ridgewood Ave
Broad Street
Willow Street
South Franklin Ave
Mount Prospect Ave
Forest Hill Interchange
Passaic Road
Kearny Ave
Schuyler Ave
Kearny Transit Center


Heavy Rail

PATH Newark Line
World Trade Center
Exchange Place
Grove Street
Journal SQ
West Side Ave
Harrison
Newark Penn Station
South Street
Newark Interchange
Terminal C
Terminal A
Jersey Gardens Mall
Elizabethport
Divison Street
Jackson Ave
Midtown Elizabeth
Chilton Street
Elmora Ave
Linden Boulevard
Locust Street


Core Regional Rail lines

Raritan Valley line
Raritan
Somerville
Bridgewater
Bound Brook
Dunellen
Plainfield
Netherwood
Fanwood
Westfield
Garwood
Cranford
Roselle Park
Union
Hillside
Meeker Ave

Newark Penn station
Hoboken (Peak Hours only)


Northeast Corridor line
Jersey Ave
New Brunswick
Edison
Metchun
Metropark
Rahway
Linden
Midtown Elizabeth
North Elizabeth
Newark Airport
Newark Penn station
Secaucus JCT
New York Penn



Morristown Core line
Summit
Short Hills
Millburn
Maplewood
South Orange
Mountain Station
Orange
Brick Church
East Orange
Newark Board Street
Harrison
Hoboken



Kingsland Branch
Hillburn
Suffern
Mahwah
Ramsey Route 17
Ramsey Main Street
Allendale
Waldwick
Ho-Ho-Kus
Ridgewood
Glenrock
Hawthrone
North Paterson
Paterson
Clifton
Passaic
Delawanna
Lyndhurst
Kingsland
Kearny
Harrison East

Secaucus JCT
New York Penn Station


https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...53165,0.837021
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  #46  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 2:25 PM
Alon Alon is offline
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I don't drive.

I last used the New York-area network 3 months ago. Commuted from New Haven to New York every day for a week. Before then I'd complained about the low frequency all the time, but this time I'd had so much experience with the MBTA's passenger-hate that I cherished the sometimes-half-hourly frequency. Tyranny of low expectations, I guess. Relative to other regions with unusably bad mainline rail, the New York area does swell, and it's not as if they ever bother to compare themselves with Paris or Tokyo or Munich or London or Berlin or Madrid or Seoul or Milan.

I counted all trains on the NJT and Amtrak timetables passing through the North River Tunnels. I wasn't just looking up station-to-station timetables. It's 24-25 tph, depending on the month. I'm going to just guess they don't deadhead anything in the peak hour in the peak direction, but maybe they do and they're just crying capacity to extort more money. It's certainly not necessary to deadhead in the daytime - just go to Grand Central and count trains on the subway and see how many are in service.

PATH comes too frequently for timed transfers. Ditto light rail. Secaucus isn't just a level change - it's two level changes, with faregates in between. Ask yourself why people transfer at Jamaica while around the Erie lines most people drive or take a bus instead of transferring at Secaucus. There are several really bad transfer penalties involved at Secaucus, and NJT is maximizing them instead of minimizing them. When I did take NJT, I didn't once hear anything about connecting trains at Secaucus - unlike on the LIRR, where there would be frequent announcements about changing across the platform at Jamaica for another destination. Not relevant to me since I was riding to JFK but it was there. In New Jersey, nothing that I remember.
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  #47  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 9:07 PM
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Jonboy1983 Jonboy1983 is offline
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Hey Nexis. I'm treating my wife to a weekend in the Big Apple the weekend of October 19, and we're taking NJ Transit from Hamilton Station. Any chance of us taking a double-decker train in the afternoon? I'm sorry if this is somewhat off topic.

NJ Gold Coast plan. What is that exactly?
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  #48  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 9:24 PM
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Hey Nexis. I'm treating my wife to a weekend in the Big Apple the weekend of October 19, and we're taking NJ Transit from Hamilton Station. Any chance of us taking a double-decker train in the afternoon? I'm sorry if this is somewhat off topic.

NJ Gold Coast plan. What is that exactly?
Your Chance is 60%....if you don't get a Double Decker , you will most likely get a Arrow 3... Do go to the Brownstone diner in Jersey City if you & your wife like Pancakes this is the place to visit...very popular place to go...usually have to wait 25mins on the weekend but worth it. Its right across from the Jersey Ave LRT stop or 6 blocks from the Grove Street PATH , not a bad walk through historic Downtown. Its on the corner of Jersey Ave & Grand Street.

Last edited by Nexis4Jersey; Sep 14, 2012 at 9:38 PM.
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  #49  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 9:39 PM
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I rode with ALP45dp today ...


004 by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


005 by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

Pascack Valley line Train # 1620 departing Secaucus JCT with ALP45DP # 4515

Video Link
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  #50  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2012, 2:13 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they put the bilevels on longer-distance express trains, and the Arrows on shorter-distance local trains? That's at least what the commenters on my told me is already done when I suggested it. So probably most if not all trains serving Hamilton are bilevels.
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  #51  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2012, 9:50 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they put the bilevels on longer-distance express trains, and the Arrows on shorter-distance local trains? That's at least what the commenters on my told me is already done when I suggested it. So probably most if not all trains serving Hamilton are bilevels.
No , its mixed the have them everywhere , same with arrows. However not on the Pascack Valley line nor the Gladstone Branch due to Yard issues.
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  #52  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2012, 4:20 AM
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I doubt all of the MOM extensions will get done. The one
that goes through Monmouth Junc. down through Lakehurst is
the likely candidate, although the Red Bank line down to Forked River
might have a chance.

To bad Pennington is opting out of a station for the West Trenton Line.

The two extensions to Phillipsburg will most likely come down to one. I'm guessing the Raritan Valley (High Bridge terminus) will win out. There is mention in this thread that that line would go into PA. I suppose it would be extended on to Allentown.

As for Connecticut, that extension to New Milford is sorely needed. Surprised that there is really no discussion of extending the Waterbury branch up to Torrington or Winsted.

Fingers crossed..
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  #53  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2012, 4:45 AM
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Originally Posted by liat91 View Post
I doubt all of the MOM extensions will get done. The one
that goes through Monmouth Junc. down through Lakehurst is
the likely candidate, although the Red Bank line down to Forked River
might have a chance.

To bad Pennington is opting out of a station for the West Trenton Line.

The two extensions to Phillipsburg will most likely come down to one. I'm guessing the Raritan Valley (High Bridge terminus) will win out. There is mention in this thread that that line would go into PA. I suppose it would be extended on to Allentown.

As for Connecticut, that extension to New Milford is sorely needed. Surprised that there is really no discussion of extending the Waterbury branch up to Torrington or Winsted.

Fingers crossed..
The MOM Network has really started to pick up...in recent months however the Matawan branch is a stupid idea goes no where to Freehold. The Amboy , Red Bank-Forked River , and Monmouth JCT are better lines. This Project might get lumped in with the New Brunswick LRT and Busway Projects which only increase the ridership on the MOM and NEC.

I think both lines of the Philpsburg Network will go through the Morristown line extension requires nothing compared to High Bridge. They also want to throw in Flemington which might be a tough sell. The PA part is on hold due to corbett scrapping funding for studies... Maybe into Easton , but who knows.

Its a shame they left Pennington & Manville out , both towns would benefit from having stations. More so for commutes to Philly then NY , or both. Along with Trenton bound commuters. This Project might get lumped in with the Light Rail Extension. There will be a station at I-95 , so kinda near Pennington....

The Busway seems to have slowed upgrades to the Danbury line and Electrification which would have come later this decade along with 2 Infill Stations in Georgetown and Downtown Norwalk at Wall Street. For the Cost of the Busway , Fairfield Metro & West Haven Stations you could Electrify the Danbury & Waterbury Branches , Extend Service up to New Milford , Extend Service to Torrington , Restore the Maybrook line , Electrify the Knowledge Corridor and restore the Bristol Branch. About 1.8 Billion in Waste if you ask me , not that I don't mind the Infill stations the cost is inflated beyond ridiculous... The Busway is a waste and huge boondoggle....and down the road when the Knowledge corridor will need to be 3 or 4 tracked that space will be taken by a busway that most people are against. They wanted Rail...which was only priced at 50 Million if i'm not mistaken... But I do see all the Connecticut & New England Rail Projects in general moving forward unlike other states. Most of thier projects should be done by 2030....the question is when will Electrification start? Electrifying each line would only cost between 40-60 Million depending on where the line ran , some lines are very remote...others go through dense areas....
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  #54  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2012, 4:50 AM
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Some poles & wires are still intact in some areas along the Danbury Branch...they even part trains there overnight and on weekends...


MNRR : Danbury Branch by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


Pine Island Cemetery Norwalk CT by caboose_rodeo, on Flickr


Mutt on the Branch! by caboose_rodeo, on Flickr
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  #55  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2012, 8:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
The MOM Network has really started to pick up...in recent months however the Matawan branch is a stupid idea goes no where to Freehold. The Amboy , Red Bank-Forked River , and Monmouth JCT are better lines. This Project might get lumped in with the New Brunswick LRT and Busway Projects which only increase the ridership on the MOM and NEC.
I agree, the Matawan extension would be a waste.

Quote:
I think both lines of the Philpsburg Network will go through the Morristown line extension requires nothing compared to High Bridge. They also want to throw in Flemington which might be a tough sell. The PA part is on hold due to corbett scrapping funding for studies... Maybe into Easton , but who knows.
I did read once about Flemington, but that is very very tentative at this point. Does Corbett support the Lackawanna cutoff? If he does, then what's the difference?

Quote:
Its a shame they left Pennington & Manville out , both towns would benefit from having stations. More so for commutes to Philly then NY , or both. Along with Trenton bound commuters. This Project might get lumped in with the Light Rail Extension. There will be a station at I-95 , so kinda near Pennington....
I think Pennington might not have had space for a station. Who knows. Manville should definitely get a station, what's with that. I live in Hillsborough and will tell you that not really anyone commutes into Philly from anywhere around here, but there are alot that go into NYC. It's funny that there are more commuters trekking into NYC/NE NJ from Nazareth, PA than from Ewing, NJ.
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  #56  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2012, 11:20 AM
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I agree, the Matawan extension would be a waste.



I did read once about Flemington, but that is very very tentative at this point. Does Corbett support the Lackawanna cutoff? If he does, then what's the difference?



I think Pennington might not have had space for a station. Who knows. Manville should definitely get a station, what's with that. I live in Hillsborough and will tell you that not really anyone commutes into Philly from anywhere around here, but there are alot that go into NYC. It's funny that there are more commuters trekking into NYC/NE NJ from Nazareth, PA than from Ewing, NJ.
Hes been Quiet on the Lackawanna line , NJT seems to at least want it to Stroudsburg which would do wonders for the traffic and growing population of Monroe County which mainly commutes to NYC and mostly drives... I'm sure once it gets in PA it will be easier to get to Scranton. New York wants it to go to Binghamton as part of their statewide Rail Network however they haven't even begun doing anything with expanding Commuter Rail service in the Hudson Valley and Coumon cancelled the I-287 Rail Corridor which was badly needed.


I'm surprised there are not many Philly commuters down there , maybe thats just on the PA side. Isn't the old station still intact in Pennington?
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  #57  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2012, 10:31 PM
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Corbett is cutting funding for all transit studies? Um, transit needs to be funded. Having our transit network upgraded will only lead to increased vibrancy for our urban areas, more and better jobs, better access to jobs as well as to healthcare and education, etc...

Great, I guess it will be a while before PA sees funding for transit...
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  #58  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 1:49 AM
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Corbett is cutting funding for all transit studies? Um, transit needs to be funded. Having our transit network upgraded will only lead to increased vibrancy for our urban areas, more and better jobs, better access to jobs as well as to healthcare and education, etc...

Great, I guess it will be a while before PA sees funding for transit...
He cut it back in 2010 , even though the Lehigh Valley supported. Then he jacked up costs just like Cuomo did with the 287 Rail Corridor to make it too expensive...when in older studies and NJT studies it came out to 250 Million to Allentown , 80 Million to Philpsburg.
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  #59  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 2:11 AM
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He cut it back in 2010 , even though the Lehigh Valley supported. Then he jacked up costs just like Cuomo did with the 287 Rail Corridor to make it too expensive...when in older studies and NJT studies it came out to 250 Million to Allentown , 80 Million to Philpsburg.
Asshole...

$250 million??? That's all?!! What is it now, double that, at least?! I guess that's similar to charging a buck for lemonade and then tossing in another $1 charge for the fricking cup to pour it into!



If I was in office, I wouldn't be pulling this monkey shit...
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  #60  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 4:01 AM
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Asshole...

$250 million??? That's all?!! What is it now, double that, at least?! I guess that's similar to charging a buck for lemonade and then tossing in another $1 charge for the fricking cup to pour it into!



If I was in office, I wouldn't be pulling this monkey shit...
These Politicians love to lie and inflate things ,he saying the Lackawanna Corridor will cost 1.5 Billion.... NJ says 500 Million , mostly too restore 2 viaducts meaning PA only needs to spend 100Million.... NJ rarely lies about Rail projects nor do they double in cost except in South Jersey.
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