BC Teachers vs Provincial Government on Contract | [3-Day Strike]

[BCPhil]

I've seen a lot of people mention the 15% or this and that that the teachers are demanding, but I haven't seen one mention of how much you think that is. And before you go out and say that 15% is only a bargaining tactic, you might want to think again, it's what they typically get at negotiation time.

How much do you guys think teachers actually make?

If I said I could finish a typical 5 year post secondary degree program anywhere in the country, and walk into a school in BC and start at $47,461 (the BC average for a Category 5 teacher with ZERO experience and most teachers in BC are category 5) would you believe me? Do people think that is a high or low number? Why is this number not mentioned in ANY media ever? The average starting wage (salary + expense bonus of 2%) in Vancouver school district (#39) is almost $50,000. If I put in time as a teacher, the average maximum wage in BC for category 5 teachers is $76,585.

The average teacher is only required to work 1265 hours a year (about 6.5 hours per school day); the typical working year is 1928 hours a year for everyone else with 2 weeks of vacation. So I can basically finish school and make $37 an hour. With no experience. Not too shabby. And they want a 15% increase?

Since 2006, teachers have actually seen a total salary increase of at least 14% (many have seen increases of 21.5%). Meanwhile, the average BC household income has increased by about 0.8% in the last 4 years or so, which is lower than the rate of inflation.

Here are some other fun facts the teachers are asking for:
-26 weeks (half year) paid leave to care for someone (being a family member is not a requirement);
-a year's pay as a “bonus” for retiring veteran teachers;
-two weeks paid leave upon the death of any friend;
-five paid days per year for professional activities;
-two sick days a month that can be saved up; and
-a 15% pay increase.

All their demands will cost the taxpayer at the very very least $2 billion (and I think that is without the actual 15% pay increase).

Anyway, here is an interesting article published by the BCPSEA about how the teachers rig their salary comparisons to make their wages look bad. Sure, it's by the "other side", but usually the media is so overloaded with the teachers rhetoric, or the governments stance, that numbers actually assembled by the group that does the actual hiring is overlooked.

http://www.bcpsea.bc.ca/documents/pu...ril%202011.pdf

Anyway, why is the race to highest teacher salaries so important. If Ontario or Alberta wants to pay teachers $100,000 that's their business. Just because they do it doesn't mean that is something we need to do. Salaries in BC have always been lower compared to most of the country, especially in areas where job competition has been fierce at times (like in Ontario they had to have high wages to attract students into education instead of just working at car factories and in Alberta they have to compete with oil salaries, and you would have to pay me $150,000 to live in the north, therefore they do).

[Vestry]

Full disclosure: One of my best friends is a teacher. He had a class where 3-4 kids in his grade 6 class probably should've been held back last year. He emails, has meetings with, and makes extensive comments in report cards with recommendations to the parents. Half of the parents of those kids turn it around on him and complain about him being a terrible teacher, insult him during parent-teacher conferences as being overpaid. When year end came and he turned in report cards, the administration (not part of the teacher's union) pushed him to push the marks up of the failing kids. A performance rating system would provide teachers plenty of incentive to push kids along to the next grade that aren't ready for it, nevermind the principals.

So as a teacher, you're up against: administration that doesn't back you up, a government that reflects the populist sentiment of teacher as babysitter of 30+, and a BCTF that doesn't do a good enough job of weeding out bad teachers/old, lazy teachers.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I've seen a lot of people mention the 15% or this and that that the teachers are demanding, but I haven't seen one mention of how much you think that is. And before you go out and say that 15% is only a bargaining tactic, you might want to think again, it's what they typically get at negotiation time.

How much do you guys think teachers actually make?

If I said I could finish a typical 5 year post secondary degree program anywhere in the country, and walk into a school in BC and start at $47,461 (the BC average for a Category 5 teacher with ZERO experience and most teachers in BC are category 5) would you believe me? Do people think that is a high or low number? Why is this number not mentioned in ANY media ever? The average starting wage (salary + expense bonus of 2%) in Vancouver school district (#39) is almost $50,000. If I put in time as a teacher, the average maximum wage in BC for category 5 teachers is $76,585.

The average teacher is only required to work 1265 hours a year (about 6.5 hours per school day); the typical working year is 1928 hours a year for everyone else with 2 weeks of vacation. So I can basically finish school and make $37 an hour. With no experience. Not too shabby. And they want a 15% increase?

Is $47 000 - $76 000 per year really a large sum of money for a university educated person? A bus driver makes around $26 an hour, and a typical journeyman trade worker makes close to 70 k per year, some even more. A probational constable in the VPD makes $58 000 per year and rises to $83 000 after 4 years. And so on.

I guess you could argue that everyone gets paid too much.

[nova9]

BCPhil, so you think you as joe public knows more about our negotiations than a teacher in the system? Thanks for just quoting BCPSEA numbers - helpful.

And as someone that IS a new teacher, our $47,000 starting is if you even get a full-time contract. No one I know is working 7 of 8 blocks (that's full time). I survive on 4 blocks and then subbing on the other day. Others survive on 2 blocks and subbing or worse, 5 blocks and no subbing (that 1 class on the other days screws them). This is my 4th year of no fulltime work. I could be making more and working less if I had stayed in my retail job at Chapters.

[usog]

I definitely agree that teachers deserve to be compensated well but I don't agree with actually doing so until the system gets overhauled. Speaking as a somewhat-recent product of the BC education system, it's appalling not only the way districts spend money/the ministry allocates money but also how many teachers who are sincere but poor at teaching or just plain incompetent remain in the system. A good teacher who can actually teach is worth their weight in gold but protecting incompetence prevents elevation of competence.

[jlousa]

I'm not going to get into politics, it seems that there are many young teachers that are having trouble finding fulltime work so they either have to work part time or they move on to other careers. It's safe to assume that these people are intelligent and knew the the conditions/wages that were awaiting them. So knowing the wages that they could expect is it safe to assume they chose teaching for reasons other then money?
Do teachers agree that if the BCTF were willing to cull the herd, so to speak, that it would eliminate the supply of teachers and could improve the education system at the same time while putting some upward pressure on wages. It's hard to argue that wages are too low when there is a current surplus of teachers looking for work.
I wouldn't do what teachers for what they get paid, and I wouldn't want to be a teacher in today's society.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by nova9

BCPhil, so you think you as joe public knows more about our negotiations than a teacher in the system? Thanks for just quoting BCPSEA numbers - helpful.

And as someone that IS a new teacher, our $47,000 starting is if you even get a full-time contract. No one I know is working 7 of 8 blocks (that's full time). I survive on 4 blocks and then subbing on the other day. Others survive on 2 blocks and subbing or worse, 5 blocks and no subbing (that 1 class on the other days screws them). This is my 4th year of no fulltime work. I could be making more and working less if I had stayed in my retail job at Chapters.

While I do (honestly) sympathize, doesn't that reinforce what I said earlier - that the BCTF threat of teaching involving such horrible working conditions is bunk? If it was, why would there be an oversupply of so many recent graduates?

Sounds to me like the BCTF overeached in their demands and is backed into a corner. Net zero means net zero.

[mezzanine]

To be clear, my criticisms more deal with the BCTF, not the teachers.

So as a teacher, you're up against: ... a government that reflects the populist sentiment of teacher as babysitter of 30+,

IMO the government's position is that the current economic climate is asking for control over increasing costs. IMO this is not unreasonable. Planned tax breaks were cancelled and other public sector unions are being asked for the same net-zero agreement, and are coming to agreements, unlike the BCTF.

Who knows? we may have had more financial room if we agreed to the HST, a progressive tax used extensively by the nordic social democracies. Guess who opposed the HST? When did the BCTF stop advocating for the kids and its member teachers and start advocating for tax policy, against progressive tax policy at that?

Teacher Newsmagazine Volume 22, Number 7, May/June 2010
BCTF opposes HST


The BCTF supports a fair progressive tax system. The HST will increase taxes on those who can least afford them and, in general, transfers income from consumers to businesses in the order of $2 billion. For the BC Liberals, who previously opposed any such idea, the promise of $1.6 billion in transitional funding from the federal government was too much to resist in the light of BC’s deficit.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

The average teacher is only required to work 1265 hours a year (about 6.5 hours per school day); the typical working year is 1928 hours a year for everyone else with 2 weeks of vacation. So I can basically finish school and make $37 an hour. With no experience. Not too shabby.

This armchair analysis is only worth the napkin it was written on.

I recall a study, that was quoted in Vince Ready's non-binding mediation in 2006, stated that the average teacher works 9.1 hours per school day. That obviously excludes the 2 months of the summer (which are unpaid). In this context, the mythical full-time first-year teacher is earning a wage in the upper-$20's.

Perhaps some of you took different paths to employment, but in my opinion, $47k is not a particularly high starting wage for a 5-year degree. The average entry-level job requiring a 5-year engineering degree pays at least $45k in this part of the world. There are other examples that are in the same ballpark.

Teaching is an average-paying job for a university-educated skilled profession.

[incognism]

I've never understood the complaints from teachers that the summer months are unpaid. The yearly salary is X amount paid over 10 months. Surely a university-educated professional should be able to budget 10 months of paycheques over 12 actual months?

Also, it may be an unpopular opinion, but teachers have options to supplement their income during the summer break (summer school and private tutoring come to mind). It is simply a personal choice as to whether or not they choose to pursue it or to kick back and relax.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Perhaps some of you took different paths to employment, but in my opinion, $47k is not a particularly high starting wage for a 5-year degree. The average entry-level job requiring a 5-year engineering degree pays at least $45k in this part of the world. There are other examples that are in the same ballpark.

Teaching is an average-paying job for a university-educated skilled profession.

I don't think $47k is an average for people with Arts degrees (which the majority of teachers have).

You also need to look at the number of days they work per year. I'd gladly pro-rate my current salary to get over 3 months off per year. Plus the guaranteed pension and various other benefits they receive above and beyond the general working public.

The more I think about it, the less I can really support public sector unions. Private sector unions are something entirely different.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Zassk

This armchair analysis is only worth the napkin it was written on.

I recall a study, that was quoted in Vince Ready's non-binding mediation in 2006, stated that the average teacher works 9.1 hours per school day. That obviously excludes the 2 months of the summer (which are unpaid). In this context, the mythical full-time first-year teacher is earning a wage in the upper-$20's.

Perhaps some of you took different paths to employment, but in my opinion, $47k is not a particularly high starting wage for a 5-year degree. The average entry-level job requiring a 5-year engineering degree pays at least $45k in this part of the world. There are other examples that are in the same ballpark.

Teaching is an average-paying job for a university-educated skilled profession.

Comparing engineering to teaching has huge differences. There are so many things that teachers get that is not cash based.

• First and foremost engineers have absolutely no protection under the labour code. We are responsible for all legal arrangements which go into our employment. This often means either abuse or lawsuits.
  
• We are liable for everything we do, and have to take out liability insurance for our actions.
  
• Engineering usually takes a few thousand dollars worth of professional development per year.
  
• Very few engineers, especially junior ones have stable 9-5 jobs which let them stay in the same place for decades at a time. Usually we're getting shipped out to odd ends of the province or out of country.
  
• Engineers are very vulnerable to economic downturn. If companies budgets get cut, expansion projects and reinvestment usually goes out the window.
  
• Very few engineers who work outside of the government have anywhere near as good benefits or pensions as teachers.

When it comes down to it most teachers have a fairly stable life, with a career that can easily last 40 years. It may not pay incredibly well, but there's a lot of stability afforded by it and the lifestyle won't kill you or ruin your family relations.

Most arts majors also don't make that much money right off the bat anyways. Teaching is generally considered above average pay for arts majors.

[Zassk]

Teaching is not in fact an arts degree, it is a second 2-year degree (normally compressed into 4 semesters across 12-15 months). Yes, you can certainly take an "easy" first degree to get there, and many teachers do (Phys Ed degrees are my personal pet peeve), but that also restricts which teaching jobs you are qualified to work.

The bottom line is that teachers have attended and paid for more education than most university grads, and should be compared to professions with similar amount of education. The general arts grad running the shift at McDonald's for $32k/year is not comparable and really isn't relevant to this discussion.

Many of the attributes Alex listed about engineers above are actually reserved for Professional Engineers, and are not applicable to new hires in that profession. A P.Eng is significant career development, normally 5-10 years beyond the degree, and I would agree that it's not comparable to a teaching profession. It also pays much better.

I don't think the teaching wage is far off base here. In Ontario, perhaps.

[UPP]

Originally Posted by incognism

I've never understood the complaints from teachers that the summer months are unpaid. The yearly salary is X amount paid over 10 months. Surely a university-educated professional should be able to budget 10 months of paycheques over 12 actual months?

Also, it may be an unpopular opinion, but teachers have options to supplement their income during the summer break (summer school and private tutoring come to mind). It is simply a personal choice as to whether or not they choose to pursue it or to kick back and relax.

Unlike virtually every other job in the western hemisphere, teachers do not get holiday pay. This time off is really unemployment. Except that teachers also cannot collect EI. Also, most teachers work during much of this time off, whether it be preparing for the fall semester, grading on Saturdays and Sundays, taking teams to tournaments on weekends, etc. All of this is unpaid holiday time that you lump in as time off.

But hey, give teaching a try, like most others, you may also quit before finishing 2 years in the profession.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by UPP

Unlike virtually every other job in the western hemisphere, teachers do not get holiday pay.

So they aren't paid for 2 weeks at Christmas and the upcoming 2 week spring break? That's news to me...

If you want to start talking about hours worked, teachers are in the $35 range to start, which would normally equal $75k/yr if they worked a typical 50 weeks year and had 2 paid vacation weeks.

They are well compensated.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

So they aren't paid for 2 weeks at Christmas and the upcoming 2 week spring break? That's news to me...

If you want to start talking about hours worked, teachers are in the $35 range to start, which would normally equal $75k/yr if they worked a typical 50 weeks year and had 2 paid vacation weeks.

They are well compensated.

$35/hour = $67k/year including 4% paid vacation if it was a standard 1928-hour salary position.

First year teacher gets $47k/year including 8% paid vacation which = $34/hour if you naively assume they work bell-to-bell. (In fact the contract stipulates additional hours.)

Based on the previously mentioned study, teachers actually work 1934 hours per year - the same as a normal salary position but compressed into 10 months. That puts their hourly rate at $24/hour.

The job has certain unique perks and also has significant pay deductions and fairly unique constraints.

As I said before, I don't feel like this compensation is particularly noteworthy given the required qualifications. It does bother me when people call it overpaid or belittle the required education.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Based on the previously mentioned study, teachers actually work 1934 hours per year - the same as a normal salary position but compressed into 10 months. That puts their hourly rate at $24/hour.

I know teachers, both starting out and 20+ years of experience that don't put in a lick more than bell to bell time for their jobs. That's a biased report.

Keep in mind that high-school level teachers get an entire class block to prepare for their other classes.

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I know teachers, both starting out and 20+ years of experience that don't put in a lick more than bell to bell time for their jobs. That's a biased report.

Keep in mind that high-school level teachers get an entire class block to prepare for their other classes.

For some teachers it may be enough... for others, not so much. For high school teachers in particular, exam marking and assignment grading for example usually takes longer than one hour, especially if there's multiple things going on at once at the same time.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I know teachers, both starting out and 20+ years of experience that don't put in a lick more than bell to bell time for their jobs. That's a biased report.

It's an average number. I know of many who are lazy too.

Keep in mind that high-school level teachers get an entire class block to prepare for their other classes.

All teachers (theoretically) get the same amount of in-day prep time, high school or otherwise. It is not a lot of time relative to what most of them put in.

Regardless, I stand by my original thesis that even the $34/hr estimate is not out of line among comparable professions.

[usog]

I still say the issue with teachers isn't compensation but rather accountability.