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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 9:39 AM
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Arizona Education News and Discussion Thread

This has been oft discussed on this board, and out of nowhere it might be a reality: The Board of Regents, which oversees ASU, UofA, and NAU is considering growing.

AFT.

ASU West becoming its own college or letting the community colleges upgrade to City Colleges--at least PHX College--and offer 4-year degrees would be my suggestion.

Regents' plan: A new college
Tuition hikes fuel push for cheaper 4-year alternative to state's 3 universities

2 comments by Anne Ryman - May. 6, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Quote:
The Arizona Board of Regents is working on plans to offer lower-priced college degrees that could include starting a fourth university or even buying a community college and converting it into a four-year school.

The regents are under pressure from state legislators and Gov. Jan Brewer to come up with alternatives for students who want something more affordable than a traditional four-year degree at a research university.

The idea of providing alternatives is one that the regents have mulled for some time. But the concept is taking on new urgency because of recent state-funding cuts to higher education and sharp tuition hikes at the three state universities: Arizona State University, the University of Arizona and Northern Arizona University.

Ernie Calderón, incoming president of the state Board of Regents, said that "everything is on the table" over the next several months as the regents discuss alternatives.

One option could be to buy an existing college site, such as one of the community colleges in the Maricopa Community Colleges system, to create a four-year school, Calderón said. Another option is to make NAU's Yuma-branch campus a separate university.

An idea involving several regional state colleges that offer four-year degrees with no research component also is being floated. In addition, ASU President Michael Crow is working on a "Colleges at ASU" plan that would involve partnering with municipalities to develop colleges with university-quality instruction at a lower cost. The approach would be similar to how ASU entered downtown Phoenix, where the city fronted tax money for buildings.

In June, the presidents of the three state universities are expected to recommend specific ways to provide more choices for lower-cost, university-quality education. Later this year, Calderón said, the regents will unveil a list of options for input by the governor and public. The regents hope to make a decision by December.

It's too soon to attach a price tag. And other details are unclear, such as tuition costs and what majors would be offered.

Arizona has several private, for-profit colleges, but not many four-year public colleges or universities compared with some other states. The state has three universities that educate about 122,500 students a year. A network of community colleges offers certificates and two-year degrees; some programs allow students to earn up to three years' worth of credits before transferring to the universities. Community colleges don't offer four-year degrees, and efforts to change state law to allow them to do so have been unsuccessful.

Rep. Rich Crandall, R-Mesa, chairman of the state House Education Committee, said he has been approached by Maricopa Community Colleges about the idea of creating a "junior-senior college" where students in the community-college system could go after two years and earn a bachelor's degree.

Crandall said it's possible all the ideas will work.

"It would be wonderful if we thought that big," he said. "We'll have to see what happens."

The movement to restructure higher education comes as the state lags the national average in the percentage of adults with four-year degrees.

In Arizona, 25 percent of adults who are 25 and older have at least a bachelor's degree, compared with 28 percent nationally, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

U.S. Census and other surveys show that people with bachelor's degrees have higher lifetime earnings, access to better health care and higher savings levels.
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 1:16 PM
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I dont mean to be profane but, this news gives me a boner.



Id like ASU West to become "Central Arizona U"/"Phoenix State" and I think the Yuma campus becoming "Southern Arizona U" would be nice too.

Though we'd still need probably one more 4 year school in the Phoenix area, so either Phoenix College or MCC becoming a city college would probably be the best choice. Though if Phoenix College did graduate to a City College, we'd need it to be replaced because there wouldn't be any Community College in CenPho. Perhaps the P.C. Downtown Campus could be expanded to a full size Community college.

The only bad news is, both the headline and the article make it sound like they're looking to found a new college not colleges which is what we really need.
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 2:38 PM
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What we really need is a freakin liberal arts school. It wouldn't hurt if we had an A&M school too. This state needs to stop turning out people with business and marketing degrees and start training people to do work that benefits everyone. We need more poets, artists, and psychologists as much as we need people who know how to grow crops in a desert with a dwindling water supply.

I would be ecstatic to see Phoenix College turn the downtown campus into something more significant. I'd also like I see them build that freaking proposed culinary school on 2nd Ave & Fillmore but that will never happen.
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 3:24 PM
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^^Agreed!

Here is my dream plan for public higher education in Arizona:


ABOR (total enrollment: 140K)
So you'd have ASU & UA as the main research type schools in the state. Having more schools available would (hopefully) mean ASU wouldn't have to be such a behemoth, and I'd like to see its enrollment go from its current 67K down to about 45K (between 2 campuses, main and downtown). Cap UAs total enrollment at about 40K.

NAU would continue its smaller research component and continue on about how its been. Cap their enrollment at about 25K.

Arizona Polytechnic University
Spin ASU Poly into its own independent school, something like Cal Poly with maybe 20K enrollment.

Yuma & Phoenix State Colleges
Then for students just looking for bachelors degrees in things like teaching, business or liberal arts you'd have a school in Yuma and in NW Phoenix (ASU Wests current campus). Im not sure what good enrollments for them would be, probably between 15-20K each.

City of Phoenix: (total enrollment: 50K)

Then I'd like to see the city of Phoenix (which would maybe get money from the county or the Fed as well for this) start its own small university system like CUNY.

Phoenix Institute of Technology
Convert the Arizona Mental Hospital site to a technical, engineering and medical school. This would fall within the 'opportunity corridor' plan the city once touted for biomed uses. Even with UAs medical school downtown it seems like we are still in a deficit in that department, so this may help. These City run schools would be much smaller, maybe 10K makes each.

Phoenix A&M
In Laveen where the agriculture lifestyle is still somewhat in existence, Id like an A&M school. Mining has always been and likely will always be very important to Arizona. The agricultural portion could focus on sustainable, desert agriculture which will be a major issue in the 21st century.

Encanto College
Then like Ive mentioned before on this board Id like to see a liberal arts school on the South end of the Fair grounds property (along with an expanded Encanto Park). It could maybe have as few as 5K students.

American Indian College
Then (this may be a silly idea) Id love to see the City buy the empty lots near Steele Indian School park. The lot on the NE corner of Central and Indian School and/or the lot on Central and Glenrosa and gift that land to the Native tribes of Arizona for the purpose of building a college. The Native American population has really struggled with higher education and perhaps this would be a way to help with that. Students going to the school could perhaps sign deals to use their degrees to work on the reservations for a certain number of years after they graduate. Phoenix wouldn't necessarily have to pay for the school (other than providing the land) it could be provided by the tribes themselves perhaps.

Of course a school only letting in one race of people wouldn't really be palatable to most folks these days, so Im not proposing that. They could let in anyone though perhaps have an admissions system that would make it easier for Natives to achieve higher education.

Anyway, my system or something like that would mean a lot more competition and choices for students. Instead of a huge number of young people fleeing the state to get an education (and many never coming back) perhaps we'd start to import people looking for an education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glynnjamin View Post
I'd also like I see them build that freaking proposed culinary school on 2nd Ave & Fillmore but that will never happen.
I dont think I ever heard about this proposal, have any more info?

EDIT: Plus the best thing about all of this would be, all these smaller schools we'd have a bunch of new small college basketball teams and that would be fun
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 8:24 PM
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Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
Phoenix A&M
In Laveen where the agriculture lifestyle is still somewhat in existence, Id like an A&M school. Mining has always been and likely will always be very important to Arizona. The agricultural portion could focus on sustainable, desert agriculture which will be a major issue in the 21st century.
Well, the UofA is our land grant university after all. Some of you may recall that they used to have several extensions and research labs across the valley, such as the land currently occupied by the Cotton Center (48th St. and Broadway) and the EVIT in Mesa (Main St. between Dobson and Alma School Rd.). But in their infinite wisdom, UofA decided to sell the land instead.

Quote:
Encanto College
Then like Ive mentioned before on this board Id like to see a liberal arts school on the South end of the Fair grounds property (along with an expanded Encanto Park). It could maybe have as few as 5K students.
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 4:02 PM
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^Ya, I think I still have the documentation on it. About 2 years ago, they came to the RAA meeting and handed out this stuff on a proposal for the lot bordered by Fillmore, 2nd Ave, McKinley, and 3rd Ave. It would house a facility that would rival Scottsdale's Culinary School and would feature a series of restaurants along the ground floor that would allow students to work and train. It was maybe a 3-story complex with the vision of also building on the PHX College side of the lot in the future - filling it with shopping and residential. It sounded like a really good idea at the time and I was excited to see like 5 new restaurants open across the street from me. Of course, it never happened, but I know the company that bought the apartment complex and all of those houses on 2nd Ave still owns it and they were the ones looking to build there. Who knows anymore...but it would be nice to see PHX take a stab at being a culinary leader by building from the bottom instead of just bringing in top culinary talent from other places.
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 8:12 PM
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I'm glad the Board of Regents has finally woken up to this new reality.

A four-year option has been on the table from the Maricopa Community College District for years now. They could easily start with a few select degrees, such as Nursing, Criminal Justice, or a variety of applied programs in computer science/CIS/Networking, etc.

The Arizona Board of Regents will have almost no control when it comes to the Community College's decision. The MCCD colleges answer to their own Board, and have their own sources of funding, with very little coming down from the legislature.

To think that the ABOR would even consider buying a MCCD campus shows just how desperate they really are.

A good article from the NY Times from just this past weekend addressed this very issue.

Quote:
Community Colleges Challenge Hierarchy With 4-Year Degrees

By TAMAR LEWIN
Published: May 2, 2009

MIAMI — When LaKisha Coleman received her associate’s degree at Miami Dade Community College six years ago, her best bet for a bachelor’s degree seemed to be at the more expensive Florida International University.
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Maggie Steber for The New York Times

Joel Flores and about 40 other students at Miami Dade worked on a mock crime scene as part of a class exercise. Some universities oppose the expansion of community college programs.
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Maggie Steber for The New York Times

Sharon Plotkin, a crime scene technician, with students from Miami Dade College, one of 14 community colleges in Florida authorized to offer bachelor’s degrees.

But nowadays, Miami Dade College — the “Community” has been dropped — offers bachelor’s degrees in teaching and nursing and public safety management, and will soon add engineering technology, film production and others. Ms. Coleman returned to Miami Dade two years ago and is about to graduate with a degree in public safety management.

Ms. Coleman now recommends the college to family members. “It’s much cheaper, the teachers are good, you can do it in the evening while you work, and everyone’s very helpful,” she said.

As Ms. Coleman discovered, the line between community colleges and four-year universities is blurring.

Florida leads the way, with 14 community colleges authorized to offer bachelor’s degrees, and 12 already doing so, in fields as varied as fire safety management and veterinary technology. But nationwide, 17 states, including Nevada, Texas and Washington, have allowed community colleges to award associate’s and bachelor’s degrees, and in some, the community colleges have become four-year institutions. Others states are considering community college baccalaureates.

In most cases, the expanding community colleges argue that they are fulfilling a need, providing four-year degrees to working people who often lack the money or the time to travel to a university. But some of those universities are fighting back, saying the community colleges are involved in “mission creep” that may distract them from their traditional mission and lead to watered-down bachelor’s degrees.

“It’s cooking in several states, in many work-force-related fields, but there’s a lot of debate and politics, and differing views on whether they’re still community colleges if they give baccalaureates,” said Beth Hagan, executive director of the Community College Baccalaureate Association, a nonprofit group that promotes the trend.

In Michigan, community colleges are seeking to offer baccalaureates in culinary arts, cement technology and nursing. Their efforts have stalled, said Mike Hansen, president of the Michigan Community College Association.

“We need legislation to do it, and the legislation’s been introduced, but that’s as far as it’s gotten,” Mr. Hansen said. “The four-year universities in the state are very much opposed to the idea.”

Mike Boulus, the executive director of the group that represents the four-year universities, called the plan to expand community colleges “a solution in search of a problem.”

“It’s clearly unnecessary,” Mr. Boulus said. “Community colleges should stick with the important work they do extremely well, offering two-year degrees and preparing students for transfer to four-year schools.”

Some critics worry that community college baccalaureates will drive up costs, take resources from needy students and lead to low-quality degrees.

At Miami Dade College, more than 1,000 students are enrolled in baccalaureate programs. Their average age is 33; three-quarters are women, and slightly more than half are Hispanic.

Miami Dade’s president, Eduardo J. Padrón, said the baccalaureate programs were part of his institution’s mission of serving the community.

“We supply the area’s nurses and the teachers, and we respond quickly to new work force needs in our community, training people for real jobs,” Dr. Padrón said. “You won’t see us starting a B.A. in sociology. We’re offering degrees in things the universities don’t want to do.”

He emphasized that the programs required the same kinds of general education courses as four-year universities.

Miami Dade’s baccalaureate courses feel unlike a typical college class. In a recent Monday evening class, Ms. Coleman and others were quick to share experiences from outside the class. The evening’s topic was correctional officers — their pay, job requirements, working conditions and subculture. One student knows a guard who was fired for trafficking in cellphones; another tells of how the guards treated visitors when her son was in jail.

Almost all had earned their associate’s degree, a prerequisite for the baccalaureate programs, at Miami Dade and had taken some classes at Florida International, but had found them expensive and unsatisfying.

Ms. Coleman, the third of 10 children, took 10 years after high school graduation to earn her associates’ degree because she was working and had to take semesters off to care for her younger siblings and ailing mother.

Dr. Padrón said community colleges existed to serve students like Ms. Coleman.

“We have an open-door policy, and we serve 62 percent of Miami-Dade district graduates who go to college,” said Dr. Padrón, referring to the local public school system. “Eighty percent of our students work, and 58 percent of them come from low-income families.

“Ours is a mission of rescue. The universities that handpick their students based on SATs and grades get three times the funding we do. We are the underfunded overachiever.”

Dr. Padrón said he had no plans for Miami Dade to become Miami Dade State College, as it is entitled to be.

Some community colleges that offered baccalaureates have, however, morphed into four-year institutions, repeating a pattern in American higher education.

“From the 1840s to the 1940s we had the sequence where normal schools, founded to train teachers, became teachers’ colleges, then abandoned that role to become colleges, and then the ball would keep rolling and they would become universities,” said Christopher J. Lucas, an education professor at the University of Arkansas. “This has some of that feel. I get a little uneasy when I see community colleges playing at being four-year universities. When you try to be all things to all people, you end up not being very good for any of them.”

Community-college baccalaureates challenge the educational hierarchy’s boundaries between the research mission of universities, the teaching mission of colleges and open admissions for community colleges.

“Many people in leadership believe that’s the right division of labor,” said Carol Geary Schneider, president of the Association of American Colleges and Universities. “So like any fundamental change, the blurring of the lines is uncomfortable.”

Further complicating matters, some four-year universities offer not only nursing and teaching degrees but also applied baccalaureates — Bachelor of Applied Science or Bachelor of Applied Technology — in the fields into which community colleges are expanding. “The old categories that divided the world up between big-picture and applied-skills are out of date and dysfunctional,” Dr. Schneider said. “So colleges and universities of all kinds — two-year, four-year, public and private — are feeling their way toward a synthesis.”
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by vertex
The Arizona Board of Regents will have almost no control when it comes to the Community College's decision. The MCCD colleges answer to their own Board, and have their own sources of funding, with very little coming down from the legislature.
ABOR has been the one entity all along that has been preventing the community colleges from expanding further into 4 year degrees. For some reason, this needs state authorization.

Excellent post Hoover.

City University Phoenix ... another tier? Thinking big are we?

Phoenix A&M sounds very intriguing. Not sure about where the indian college might go. the lot at Central and Indian School is owned by Colliers...

I love the idea of a small liberal arts university, but I'd stash it somewhere off the light rail line in the airport ghetto around 24th St. Wouldn't compete with Gateway at all, where as it might with Phoenix College.

Splitting ASU East into Arizona Poly is a no-brainer, as well as ASU West becoming Phoenix State University. Some guy has been fighting the good fight for a long time over at

http://psuandaztech.blogspot.com/

that talks more about this.

I think what bothers me most about ASU is their conflicting mission of trying to be all things to all people yet be the best school possible. I got jaded out of a business degree when I realized I had a snowball's chance in a sauna of getting into their CIS program.. These days since i picked up keyboarding ASU is again out of reach because their music school is in the top 10 and I'm just not that good a musician.

I may end up going to Ottawa University for that music degree, which is in an office building off I-17 somewhere. It's a branch of a non-profit sort-of-religious affiliated school in Kansas. The only reason Ottawa is here is because they were looking to expand many moons ago and found this horridly underserved area. I'd like to see them grow.

It irks me to no end that there's like 2 places to get a music degree in a metro of 4 million plus.

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Originally Posted by glynnjamin View Post
^Ya, I think I still have the documentation on it. About 2 years ago, they came to the RAA meeting and handed out this stuff on a proposal for the lot bordered by Fillmore, 2nd Ave, McKinley, and 3rd Ave. It would house a facility that would rival Scottsdale's Culinary School and would feature a series of restaurants along the ground floor that would allow students to work and train. It was maybe a 3-story complex with the vision of also building on the PHX College side of the lot in the future - filling it with shopping and residential. It sounded like a really good idea at the time and I was excited to see like 5 new restaurants open across the street from me. Of course, it never happened, but I know the company that bought the apartment complex and all of those houses on 2nd Ave still owns it and they were the ones looking to build there. Who knows anymore...but it would be nice to see PHX take a stab at being a culinary leader by building from the bottom instead of just bringing in top culinary talent from other places.
I'm confused by this. No properties have changed hands recently on the block you're talking about--the one with the boarded up Town Apartments and that big ass lot fronting Fillmore have had the same owners for years.

The houses on 2nd Ave are north of McKinley and had a separate RFP with the neighborhood realtor Sherry Rampy that didn't go anywhere.
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 9:28 PM
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Well, the UofA is our land grant university after all.
That would mean I'd approve of sending perfectly nice kids from the Valley to Tucson for four years. Thats a punishment of hellish proportions I don't wish on anyone.

Seriously though, I think a small, specialized school serving 5-10K wouldn't really hurt the UA and just be another option for people in AZ/the Valley.

I think a big thing to remember is, while a lot of the things Im thinking of/proposing may not be needed now when we've doubled our population in 25 years or whatever, they will be. So better to think ahead for a change.

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City University Phoenix ... another tier? Thinking big are we?
I try After all, its best to "make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans...think big."
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 10:03 PM
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I'm confused by this. No properties have changed hands recently on the block you're talking about--the one with the boarded up Town Apartments and that big ass lot fronting Fillmore have had the same owners for years.

The houses on 2nd Ave are north of McKinley and had a separate RFP with the neighborhood realtor Sherry Rampy that didn't go anywhere.
Ya, you're right. I forgot those houses were north of McKinley. I'll try and dig up the paperwork when I get home and copy them here.
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 9:34 PM
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I am confused by this title. Do you guys only have 3 four year universities in Arizona now?
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Old Posted May 8, 2009, 5:54 PM
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I am confused by this title. Do you guys only have 3 four year universities in Arizona now?
There are also 3 two year colleges. Central Arizona College in Coolidge, Arizona Western College in Yuma with centers all over Yuma and La Paz counties, and Eastern Arizona College in Thatcher. There is also a branch of the University of Arizona in Sierra Vista that does have about 5 four-year degree programs.
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 9:37 PM
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^ Yes. There are only three 4-year public universities run by the state. The County community colleges only have 2 year degrees.

There are a bunch of small, specialized, extremely expensive private schools around tho.
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 9:48 PM
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Why only 3? I mean Colorado has about the same population and I can think of 10 4 year universities/ colleges.
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 9:55 PM
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Why only 3? I mean Colorado has about the same population and I can think of 10 4 year universities/ colleges.
The Arizona Board of Regents are a group of the most backwards, knuckle dragging, visionless, grudge holding buffoons to ever walk the Earth thats why.

For the majority of its history the ABOR has been controlled by people in Tucson and people with ties to the UA. All they want is whats best for the UA and the rest of the state can't die for all they care. They did everything in their power from preventing ASU from becoming a "U" and only allowed it to eventually happen by granting NAU "U" status as well. For years its been obvious that ASUs enrollment was spiraling way too high and would become an undesirable, untenable solution, but that didn't effect UA- so who cares? Further, it hurt ASU and Phoenix, so all the better. Tucson leaders, and ABOR, have little brother syndrome and seem to still be annoyed that Phoenix has the capitol, the better water infrastructure, more growth, et cetera. so they take it out by punishing the entire states higher education system.

The ASU-UA rivalry is one of the most bitter, and sadly petty in the country because of all of this.

EDIT: VV Thats certainly a factor, but even with ASU being in the biggest population center (metro Phx) its still not proximate to a lot of people in the Valley. The Valley is so big it needs a bunch of schools, not just one.

Think about it, the Valley has 4.3 million people and ONE traditional, four year, public university. ONE. Thats crazy. And its not like that gap has been filled by private schools, since Phoenix lacks a lot of high dollar philanthropist types we don't have anyone to found something like a Vanderbilt U, its all online colleges, technical schools and night schools that are mostly diploma mills that don't exactly produce high dollar workers or attract big companies to move here.
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 10:08 PM
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The Arizona Board of Regents are a group of the most backwards, knuckle dragging, visionless, grudge holding buffoons to ever walk the Earth thats why.

For the majority of its history the ABOR has been controlled by people in Tucson and people with ties to the UA. All they want is whats best for the UA and the rest of the state can't die for all they care. They did everything in their power from preventing ASU from becoming a "U" and only allowed it to eventually happen by granting NAU "U" status as well. For years its been obvious that ASUs enrollment was spiraling way too high and would become an undesirable, untenable solution, but that didn't effect UA- so who cares? Further, it hurt ASU and Phoenix, so all the better. Tucson leaders, and ABOR, have little brother syndrome and seem to still be annoyed that Phoenix has the capitol, the better water infrastructure, more growth, et cetera. so they take it out by punishing the entire states higher education system.

The ASU-UA rivalry is one of the most bitter, and sadly petty in the country because of all of this.

EDIT: VV Thats certainly a factor, but even with ASU being in the biggest population center (metro Phx) its still not proximate to a lot of people in the Valley. The Valley is so big it needs a bunch of schools, not just one.

Think about it, the Valley has 4.3 million people and ONE traditional, four year, public university. ONE. Thats crazy. And its not like that gap has been filled by private schools, since Phoenix lacks a lot of high dollar philanthropist types we don't have anyone to found something like a Vanderbilt U, its all online colleges, technical schools and night schools that are mostly diploma mills that don't exactly produce high dollar workers or attract big companies to move here.

That sounds like the same water fight we have in every western state lol
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Old Posted May 6, 2009, 10:09 PM
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The Arizona Board of Regents are a group of the most backwards, knuckle dragging, visionless, grudge holding buffoons to ever walk the Earth thats why.

For the majority of its history the ABOR has been controlled by people in Tucson and people with ties to the UA. All they want is whats best for the UA and the rest of the state can't die for all they care. They did everything in their power from preventing ASU from becoming a "U" and only allowed it to eventually happen by granting NAU "U" status as well. For years its been obvious that ASUs enrollment was spiraling way too high and would become an undesirable, untenable solution, but that didn't effect UA- so who cares? Further, it hurt ASU and Phoenix, so all the better. Tucson leaders, and ABOR, have little brother syndrome and seem to still be annoyed that Phoenix has the capitol, the better water infrastructure, more growth, et cetera. so they take it out by punishing the entire states higher education system.

The ASU-UA rivalry is one of the most bitter, and sadly petty in the country because of all of this.

EDIT: VV Thats certainly a factor, but even with ASU being in the biggest population center (metro Phx) its still not proximate to a lot of people in the Valley. The Valley is so big it needs a bunch of schools, not just one.

Think about it, the Valley has 4.3 million people and ONE traditional, four year, public university. ONE. Thats crazy. And its not like that gap has been filled by private schools, since Phoenix lacks a lot of high dollar philanthropist types we don't have anyone to found something like a Vanderbilt U, its all online colleges, technical schools and night schools that are mostly diploma mills that don't exactly produce high dollar workers or attract big companies to move here.
QFT. Thanks.
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  #18  
Old Posted May 6, 2009, 9:55 PM
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I would say it's because we're backward and broken, but that still wouldnt explain it.

Fucking Alabama has 14 public universities.
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  #19  
Old Posted May 6, 2009, 9:57 PM
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Could it be because your population is not as spread out as in other states. So maybe you have less universities but each university has a larger student population?

I could be wrong but is most of your population is the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas?
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  #20  
Old Posted May 6, 2009, 10:27 PM
Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Hoover dam said:

Think about it, the Valley has 4.3 million people and ONE traditional, four year, public university. ONE. That's crazy. And its not like that gap has been filled by private schools, since Phoenix lacks a lot of high dollar philanthropist types we don't have anyone to found something like a Vanderbilt U, its all online colleges, technical schools and night schools that are mostly diploma mills that don't exactly produce high dollar workers or attract big companies to move here.

That is crazy considering the Pueblo/ Colorado Springs region has about 750,000 people and we have 2 major universities (CSU - Pueblo and UCCS) a academy (Air Force Academy) and a number of private school including Colorado College that is a 4 year school and community colleges.
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