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  #1  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2008, 12:04 PM
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Planned plaza draws concerns

Planned plaza draws concerns

By Dianne Cornish, FlamboroughReview.com

Grindstone Way residents voiced concern this week about ineffective buffering of their residential properties from a planned commercial plaza.
Flamborough Power Centre Inc. wants to build a commercial strip mall on a 3.4-hectare (8.4-acre) site just east of the Trinity property on the southeast quadrant of Clappison’s Corners. The developer plans to put a cedar hedge between the strip plaza and adjacent homes. But residents don’t feel a hedge will be an adequate buffer and one homeowner is particularly upset about her privacy being compromised because of plans to raise the height of land by five feet on a portion of the property. This, she said, will allow lights from the commercial buildings to shine into her home and will enable people in the proposed buildings to see into her bathroom, bedroom and kitchen.

Scott Llewellyn, an engineer for the project said the City of Hamilton balked at plans for a fence buffer because officials thought the area would become a hang out for young people.

Details about the plaza, which will occupy about 60,000 square feet of commercial space, were presented at an information meeting Thursday night at the North Wentworth Arena, Clappison’s Corners. As yet, the city has not approved the proposal that will be subject to a future public meeting and site plan control.

Ed Fothergill of Fothergill Planning and Development Inc. in Ancaster is the planning consultant for the project.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2008, 12:26 PM
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Scott Llewellyn, an engineer for the project said the City of Hamilton balked at plans for a fence buffer because officials thought the area would become a hang out for young people.
Here's a crazy idea, GIVE THEM SOMETHING TO DO!!!

Instead of subsidizing 'development' companies, try using some of that money to build a skate park, or basketball courts, or a rec ctr of some sort. Give teenagers something to do rather than complain that all they do is "hang out".
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  #3  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2008, 2:01 PM
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no sympathy for suburbanites from this corner...you willingly elected and re-elected a councillor in love with big box and sprawl.
You got what you asked for. Happy motoring!
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Old Posted Jan 29, 2008, 2:31 PM
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Move into the city and the kid will have something to do.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2008, 2:59 PM
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Even in the city there isn't anything for kids to do. Give them some good cheap swimming places and some video arcades especially since most are too fat to use skateparks anyways.

But I do have sympathy for the home owners. Why does the land have to be raised that high? Why does a Strip Mall have to be built there? Why can't there be a fence?

We always say people should oppose strip malls, but when they do, "progressive" forces refuse to help them, saying that it's their own fault. We should be making ties with people opposed to strip malls and converting them to sustainable development rather than excluding them.
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Old Posted Jan 29, 2008, 3:15 PM
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an absolute feeding frenzy up there. like pigs at the trough.

power centres, strip malls, tract housing...god bless those poor people.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2008, 3:20 PM
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Even in the city there isn't anything for kids to do. Give them some good cheap swimming places and some video arcades especially since most are too fat to use skateparks anyways.

But I do have sympathy for the home owners. Why does the land have to be raised that high? Why does a Strip Mall have to be built there? Why can't there be a fence?

We always say people should oppose strip malls, but when they do, "progressive" forces refuse to help them, saying that it's their own fault. We should be making ties with people opposed to strip malls and converting them to sustainable development rather than excluding them.

they don't oppose them.
They continually vote for a councillor and mayor who support exactly this type of land-gobbling, sprawling model of development.
Why should I bother fighting for them when they're only going to turn around vote for the same batch of losers in the next election. It's futile.
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Old Posted Jan 29, 2008, 4:49 PM
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A fence only reinforces segregation of land uses, one of the worst characteristics of this type of neighbourhood. If the retail planned wasn't such piss poor quality, they wouldn't need a fence.
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  #9  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 3:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC83 View Post
Here's a crazy idea, GIVE THEM SOMETHING TO DO!!!

Instead of subsidizing 'development' companies, try using some of that money to build a skate park, or basketball courts, or a rec ctr of some sort. Give teenagers something to do rather than complain that all they do is "hang out".

This has to be the most peculiar objections in Canada/US civic planning. Like there is something wrong with socializing and hanging out? This is what social animals do. Esp the age groups that are figuring out what they like/dislike in people. European cities actually build hang-out places, called Piazzas, public squares, etc. Young people often find their future partner/spouse/friends in these hang-outs and older people visit them after dinner to talk to and meet their friends and family. These hang-outs are the cores of neighbourhoods.

I can see why the powers that be object to these 'hang-outs' because they are often where grass-roots politics, free-thinking, arts, public speaking take place. In fact, Democracy was born from one of these hang-outs/public squares in Athens.

It is the most bizarre thing to NOT want these public hang-outs. No wonder kids are fat and bored.
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Old Posted Feb 3, 2008, 4:08 PM
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Kids still hang out. Have you been to Limeridge Mall?

The key here is boredom.

Rec. centres provide activity. As can parks and hiking/biking trails.

Malls do not. And frankly, neither do public squares, unless there is an active element included, such as skating rinks
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Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 3:30 PM
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Why can't socializing just be socializing? No activities, just a place to hang out and talk. For some reason this has become a bad thing.

No Limeridge Mall has eliminated much of the 'hang out' areas for kids. The mall rats from the 80s and 90s are gone. The movie theatre, the arcade/Jelly Beans, the old food court, the spaces in the mall that once were occupied by Mall Rats are gone. Malls don't want people hanging out anymore. This is also a factor why retailers are favouring Box Centres.... no place to hang out/socialize. They want you to shop or leave.
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Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 3:48 PM
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This has to be the most peculiar objections in Canada/US civic planning. Like there is something wrong with socializing and hanging out? This is what social animals do. Esp the age groups that are figuring out what they like/dislike in people. European cities actually build hang-out places, called Piazzas, public squares, etc. Young people often find their future partner/spouse/friends in these hang-outs and older people visit them after dinner to talk to and meet their friends and family. These hang-outs are the cores of neighbourhoods.

I can see why the powers that be object to these 'hang-outs' because they are often where grass-roots politics, free-thinking, arts, public speaking take place. In fact, Democracy was born from one of these hang-outs/public squares in Athens.

It is the most bizarre thing to NOT want these public hang-outs. No wonder kids are fat and bored.

so friggin true.
It's why I hate the idea to remove the grassed area from Gore. I love to sit in the park drinking a coffee watching the young folks sitting on the grass playing the guitar or just laying there looking up to the sky, talking.
our society doesn't seem to know how to do that anymore.
Imagine all the great piazza's in Europe having to install massive video screens and blaring music to get people to come and hang out.
Maybe St Peter's Square should get with the times and have huge X-box screens and massive MTV videos hanging from the historic buildings around the square.
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Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 3:52 PM
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No wonder kids are fat and bored.
And depressed, and suffering from attention issues, and deprived of meaningful contact with nature, etc etc etc. It's criminal what we've done to our kids.
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Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 6:21 PM
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You make interesting points about Lime Ridge realcity (Limeridge the road is a single word, Lime Ridge the mall is two words). I think if you look back at it, the crack-down there probably coincided with the unfortunate death of a youth there some years ago. The malls have a legitimate fear of crime on their premises and the negative publicity which surrounds it. Malls--regardless of their size and success can go into a very quick and precipitous decline--we have one major centre locally--and I avoid the place at all costs on Friday nights (I try to avoid the place period)--but having to wade through crowds of tweens and teens that have no adult supervision, having to worry about my wife getting pushed/shoved--it's not worth it--the last Friday we "had" to go there for something I just parked outside The Bay--she went in, got what she needed and we left--never set foot in the mall itself.

So whether you agree with the tactic or not--it exists for a reason. Malls, alas, are private property and are retail spaces--not public spaces. For some insight into what can happen to a major mall in a short period of time, follow this link to read about the largest mall to fail in U.S. history--and how just the "impression" that it was a dangerous place quickly killed it...interesting bares a nearly identical design, size, and vintage as Lime Ridge.

www.mallofmemphis.org
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Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 9:25 PM
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Parallels between Mall of Memphis and Limeridge? Hardly. There were a total of four murders at MoM in a ten-year period, all shooting deaths, either during a robbery or as part of a murder-suicide bid. None of the perpetrators could be described as teens/tweens hanging out at a mall.

To refresh everyone's memory, this thread is about the city's concern about a fence planned along the edge of a big box outlet in Flamborough, a very long way from Memphis indeed. How about we return the discussion to something slightly relevant to this thread...
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Old Posted Feb 7, 2008, 9:34 PM
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markbarbera--I wasn't drawing paralells at all--I was drawing attention to the fact that the operators of shopping centres have a "fear" of this sort of thing--and that drives some of the decisions they make. The Mall of Memphis link was an afterthought, not the thrust of my argument. Amazing, there have been at least a half dozen posts that had nothing to do with the Grindstone Way plaza--and yet I get the grief.

Anyway, since we are back on topic now that the authority has spoken, I would argue that I have relatively little sympathy in regard to this issue. People bought property/homes in the area knowing full well that there were plans to build significant commercial/retail properties in the area (in fact, these plans date back decades to the years when I was a kid playing Pac Man at Big John's Restaurant at Clappisons Corners). I understand the need/desire for privacy--but, to put it bluntly, buying a house at Clappisons Corners seems to run contrary to the desire for either peace or quiet.
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Old Posted Feb 8, 2008, 3:56 AM
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About Lime Ridge, it's very true that the murder scared people. I had two friends who weren't allowed to go there for two years after the murder (This was back the beggining of High School) because their parents said it wasn't safe.
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Old Posted Feb 8, 2008, 11:46 AM
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I can recall 2 murders there since my teens. The first was many years ago and had a teen beaten with baseball bats in between the doors leading to the theatre.
If I recall, there was some outrage when the public learned that hundreds of people stood in line nearby to enter a movie without intervening.
The other murder I remember was the young fellow who was jumped in the parking lot a few years back.

I've been told there were 2 other murders in between these two, but I don't remember hearing about them.
Regardless, you'll never see the Spec print headlines condemning Limeridge as an unsafe place the same way they would if someone was beaten to death with bats at the Jackson Sq theatres.
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Old Posted Feb 8, 2008, 12:19 PM
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I can recall 2 murders there since my teens. The first was many years ago and had a teen beaten with baseball bats in between the doors leading to the theatre.
If I recall, there was some outrage when the public learned that hundreds of people stood in line nearby to enter a movie without intervening.
The other murder I remember was the young fellow who was jumped in the parking lot a few years back.

I've been told there were 2 other murders in between these two, but I don't remember hearing about them.
Regardless, you'll never see the Spec print headlines condemning Limeridge as an unsafe place the same way they would if someone was beaten to death with bats at the Jackson Sq theatres.
I am not certain what makes raisethehammer have such a militant dislike for anything outside of downtown Hamilton. Both Lime Ridge and Jackson Square are in Hamilton. I do not know about murders, but in terms of shopping experience, LR has JS beaten by a mile almost any way you look at it (in my opinion). LR is more aesthetically pleasing, has more stores, higher quality stores, cleaner-cut customers, free parking. You cannot even buy a decent pair of running shoes in Jackson Square or the City Centre.

Oh, and if raisethehammer says "I've been told", I like to err on the side of caution and assume that he's been told wrong.
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Old Posted Feb 8, 2008, 2:18 PM
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Today LR is a much better experiece.

However I've always prefered the meandering/maze like halls of JS more than the overbuilt LR, cathedral to retail.

If I compare JS/EC in the late 80s/early 90s, when Harry Rosen, La Senza, Club Monaco, HMV, Stars, Salon Donato, Le Chateau, Eatons, Cinemas, restaurants, etc -- the hayday of JS/EC I would prefer it over LR, and I'm pretty sure the two malls combined offered more stores and selection from unique indy to national chains. Today there are very few indy stores in LR and the reno made the place more boring, cramming every little sq ft with retail, leaving no hang-outs. Granted it is private property which is why public spaces need to be created. At least in JS there is public space outside the mall, on U Wentworth, the public space is limited to the roads and a stretch of 3 foot sidewalk that is harzardous to your life let alone be useful to public space.
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