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  #1021  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2010, 2:27 AM
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Originally Posted by brettinhalifax View Post
I picked the 2 newest stadiums, they sprung to mind because, well... they're the newest NFL stadiums. Let's widen the field and look at the 5 newest NFL stadiums (distances from downtown as per google maps)

New Meadowlands Stadium - 7.5 miles from the nearest part of NYC
Cowboys Stadium - 19 miles from downtown Dallas and 15 miles from downtown Fort Worth
Lucas Oil Stadium - less than a mile from downtown Indianapolis
University of Phoenix Stadium - 17 miles from downtown Phoenix
Lincoln Financial Field - 3.8 miles from downtown Philly

As a comparison, the East Mountain sit is 6.7 miles from Hamilton's downtown. Let's say that anything closer than 6.7 miles is a downtown stadium. That means that downtown stadiums are in the minority.

But since you'll probably accuse me of cherry picking, let's look at the next five newest stadiums...

Soldier Field - 3 miles from downtown Chicago
Reliant Stadium - 7 miles from downtown Houston
Gillette Stadium - 29 miles from downtown Boston
QWest Stadium - less than a mile from downtown Seattle
Ford Field - less than a mile from downtown Detroit

Of the 10 newest NFL stadiums, 5 are less than 6.7 miles from downtown while 5 are closer than 6.7 miles from downtown. The average distance from downtown is about 8 miles.

So you're wrong, the majority of new NFL stadiums aren't downtown. And even if you want to say that only three of the above stadiums are really suburban (Phoenix, Dallas and Boston) it still means that when you said this...



...you were wrong. Suburban stadiums are still getting built.

But maybe you just meant that suburban stadiums used to be the rule, but now downtown locations are much more common.

Well, of the 7 above stadiums deemed to be "downtown", 5 of them (Seattle, Philadelphia, NY, Houston and Chicago) were built at the same location as the old stadium, which means that building stadiums downtown isn't a new idea.

So you'd still be wrong.
Most Canadian cities would be well served by having a downtown stadium. Many American cities can build a stadium outside of downtown and fill the stadium easily. The reason is that the suburbs never end, the catchment area is vast and generaly there are more sports fans per capita. I have been to Giant's stadium and the fact that it is 7.5miles from the nearest part of Manhattan means nothing. There are 14 million people in the area so filling an 85,000 seat stadium isn't an issue. There is an army of buses trains etc. serving the stadium. You do not have that in Canada. In Canada, if you build in the burbs then you have to rely on the car or have municipal transit buy into a marginal plan to bus 45,000 people to a stadium in the summer months.

Take the train:
http://www.mta.info/mta/sports/meadowlands.html
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Last edited by Empire; Aug 13, 2010 at 3:10 AM.
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  #1022  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2010, 4:39 AM
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If Moncton is willing to take the chance then so be it. If Halifax can't get there balls together then there lies the issue.
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  #1023  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2010, 9:22 PM
Welkin Welkin is offline
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Does anybody see a viable downtown Halifax location for a stadium? I know several people have suggested the area at Windsor and Young, but that seems just a little tight for a stadium. Sure one would fit, but it does not leave much room left for any extras (parking, plazas, etc.). Something out at Dartmouth Crossing seems to have plenty of land and access, but is it too far away from downtown?
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  #1024  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2010, 9:34 PM
Welkin Welkin is offline
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Check out KC Stadium in Hull, UK. It was built for $69 million in 2002. It holds 25,400 seats. A roof protects the fans from the weather and has no obstructed views. Something like this stadium would be just perfect for Halifax. The stadium is not over the top, yet provides more than just a bare box. This style of stadium can be used for sporting events as well as concerts.

http://www.kcstadium.co.uk/
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  #1025  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 3:17 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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The locations I've suggested have mainly been to support the kind of stadium that would be fully enclosed with a fully retractable roof. Really; I think they would be more appropriate for a replacement for the Metro Centre. I've suggested infilling the harbour either on the Dartmouth side or the Halifax side near the NSP building.

If it were to be a stadium that would not be fully enclosed; away from the harbour would be more appropriate (if possible).

Windsor DND lands is probably the best bet (if additional lands from superstore could be obtained) - if not; it will be tight. The Olands site (creating a superblock) with a couple of the residential blocks next door might work as well. Of course there is Shannon Park; which is off the beaten path but from a land perspective - it has the size to be able to take a stadium.

I'm of the opinion that if a stadium is to be built to encourage a CFL team (not like Metro Centre - fully enclosed); then I'd be willing to accept a suburban location provided that the bus/transit/road connections work well. But if you build an enclosed stadium (a larger version of Metro Centre); then I think it should be a part of the downtown core (somehow).
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  #1026  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 3:43 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Halifaxboyns, I don't want to sound disagreeable, but these are two completely different things with two completely different purposes. Very few of us would refer to a replacement for the Metro Centre as a stadium. I don't see the point of trying to group them together. It is like grouping a library and a theater together. They just are not the same. I personally would like to see the HRM build a large outdoor stadium prior to building a Metro Centre II (since the HRM already has a decent arena but has no stadium). If you think that building a new Metro Centre II should be a priority then that is your freedom of opinion but lets keep the two separate (perhaps you should start a thread on building a new arena - Metro Centre II).

I don't see any reason why a new Metro Centre works downtown but not a new stadium. Putting a stadium in the suburbs surrounding by parking hasn't been the model for the Rogers Centre in Toronto or the BC Place in Vancouver. I think it is usually owners who want parking revenues who want such a scenario. However, in my opinion it is a waste of public funds that serves little benefit other than to greedy sports owners. Having a stadium near downtown would make use of existing parking space, hotel rooms and restaurants. It would be better utilized than a suburban stadium since university teams like Saint Marys University would at times use it (for the Vanier Cup) and it would also be used for concerts and events that would avoid a suburban stadium.

Last edited by fenwick16; Aug 17, 2010 at 3:55 AM.
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  #1027  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 3:52 AM
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
Most popular team in the CFL is the SK Roughriders... their stadium is downtown in a province where everybody drives everywhere.

I think it is rediculous to discuss Moncton getting a team... honestly this is a joke to me. I wouldn't (and I hope other Nova Scotians wouldn't) support any sports franchise located there. I doubt a Moncton team would last financially.

Driving 5 hours to see a team that doesn't even rep my province is laughable... I'd rather fly from Halifax to Montreal to watch the Als in a real city.
I don't agree with any of that. I'm from London (UK), grew up in Halifax, have zero ties to Moncton, but would support a Moncton team in a heart beat. What does it matter what kind of city Moncton is? Honestly, Halifax isn't exactly a bustling metropolis either, but so what?

The Maritimes need a 'local' team to root for. Montreal isn't local. I live in Toronto now, but would fly to Moncton if they got a team. I always supported the Maritime team, be it Saint Mary's, Dal, X, Acadia, Mt. Allison. If the 1st Maritime pro football team goes to Moncton, they'll get adopted by me immediately.

My allegiance will only change if Halifax ends up with a CFL team too.
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Last edited by isaidso; Aug 17, 2010 at 4:10 AM.
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  #1028  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 3:55 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Halifaxboyns, I don't want to sound disagreeable, but these are two completely different things with two completely different purposes. Very few of us would refer to a replacement for the Metro Centre as a stadium. I don't see the point of trying to group them together. It is like grouping a library and a theater together. They just are not the same. I personally would like to see the HRM build a large outdoor stadium prior to building a Metro Centre II (since the HRM already has a decent arena but has no stadium). If you think that building a new Metro Centre II should be a priority then that is your freedom of opinion but lets keep the two separate (perhaps you should start a thread on building a new arena - Metro Centre II.

I don't see any reason why a new Metro Centre works downtown but not a new stadium. Putting a stadium in the suburbs surrounding by parking hasn't been the model for the Rogers Centre in Toronto or the BC Place in Vancouver. I think it is usually owners who want parking revenues who want such a scenario. However, in my opinion it is a waste of public funds that serves little benefit other than to greedy sports owners. Having a stadium near downtown would make use of existing parking space, hotel rooms and restaurants. It would be better utilized than a suburban stadium since university teams like St Marys University would at times use it (for the Vanier Cup) and it would also be used for concerts and events that would avoid a suburban stadium.
Fenwick - was it not you that said that one of the problems for a stadium that was not fully enclosed (for Halifax's climate) would be that fog could be an issue? Since downtown gets its fair share of Fog (as I'm assuming so would Shannon Park) - then obviously downtown isn't going to work for the stadium you are proposing. So where would? I'm not saying that it has to be suburban, I'm merely saying I'm not too concerned where it's built - I'd go either way.

As to the issue of the Metro Centre - so many times we hear that HRM doesn't think ahead. So why is it out of the realm of possibility to consider the eventual need to replace the metro centre? If the population keeps growing; it will outgrow the Metro Centre - so why not be proactive and think about where it's replacement could go.
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  #1029  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:05 AM
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
Regina (more similar to a Green Bay franchise in Canada, although Edmonton is clearly Canada's Green Bay) can support a team because Saskatoon is so close and its all within the province.

Everybody should wait their turn. Moncton is always trying to "out do" Halifax, when clearly it isn't in a position to do so.
Regina (200,000) and Saskatchewan (1,000,000) isn't that different than Moncton (126,000) and New Brunswick (760,000). The population is a little less, but NB is far smaller geographically. People in NB wouldn't have to drive too far to get to Moncton and there are sizable cities not too far off: Saint John (124,000) and Fredericton (80,000).

Instead of resenting Moncton for being ambitious, why not get behind them? The Maritimes are relative midgets in Canada and need to stick together rather than infighting all the time. The only one making Halifax look bad is Halifax. If Halifax wants a team, they should get off their asses and get it done rather than taking shots at another city that's trying to build something out of nothing.

It's not Moncton's fault.
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  #1030  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:15 AM
isaidso isaidso is offline
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I have always said that if Moncton gets a team first, a team in Halfax would follow in short order. The reverse however would not necessarily be true. A team in Halifax might block an NB franchise forever.
That's how I see it as well. There needs to be 2 teams in the Maritimes eventually. If this is to come to fruition in my life time, Moncton must come first. Long term, it's best for all Maritimers if this is how it pans out.
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  #1031  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:19 AM
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
Fenwick - was it not you that said that one of the problems for a stadium that was not fully enclosed (for Halifax's climate) would be that fog could be an issue? Since downtown gets its fair share of Fog (as I'm assuming so would Shannon Park) - then obviously downtown isn't going to work for the stadium you are proposing. So where would? I'm not saying that it has to be suburban, I'm merely saying I'm not too concerned where it's built - I'd go either way.

As to the issue of the Metro Centre - so many times we hear that HRM doesn't think ahead. So why is it out of the realm of possibility to consider the eventual need to replace the metro centre? If the population keeps growing; it will outgrow the Metro Centre - so why not be proactive and think about where it's replacement could go.
I wish that there was an icon for pulling one hair out by the roots, since this would be a good place to use it. It is not a question about being proactive or not proactive, you are confusing people by grouping them together. We are talking about an outdoor stadium for outdoor sports not a large arena for hockey, basketball and the like. Based on your previous posts, you seem to favour an arena over a large outdoor stadium for football, soccer and the like. If you consider a large indoor arena to be a priority then that is your right, but I consider a replacement to the Metro Centre arena to be a lower priority than an outdoor stadium. This is just my personal opinion. If there was an unlimited amount of money in the HRM, I would like to see both. But a new Metro Centre II would likely be built at the expense of an outdoor stadium so there is a reason for stating that they are different.

I don't buy the fog argument. Based on when I was in Halifax, the fog usually cleared up by noon and seems to be throughout the HRM including the Halifax airport. I think having cold breezes from the water might be an argument against having a waterfront stadium but not the fog issue. So maybe a waterfront stadium would not be a good idea. But when you talk about an enclosed arena (almost all arenas are enclosed) versus an enclosed stadium (the minority) then it gets confusing.

Last edited by fenwick16; Aug 17, 2010 at 4:30 AM.
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  #1032  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:30 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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At this point; I don't care what is built, so long as careful planning and consideration is given to it's form and function.

So if you are proposing an NFL type outdoor (partially covered stadium); then it should not be impeded by fog (if that's an issue) and should be located in a manner that takes into account the need for people to get there and back (good road network; parking and excellent transit connections).

If after that - the need comes along that another type of stadium needs to be built that functions better for hockey and concerts (and is Metro Centre-esque) then it too should be carefully planned with good links for transportation and good design.

Since the big push is on for the CFL; I will happily support any initiative that would get a team in Halifax and get a stadium built because it will create much needed construction jobs. But I don't think that it's unreasonable to think ahead to the 'next' needed venue. Because let's say a CFL style stadium is built...what then? We just ignore the Metro Centre and let it decay? Some thought about it's future is doing exactly what so many on this forum complain the City doesn't do - thinking of the future.

Besides, even though this thread was originally about an outdoor stadium - when have any of us been able to stick on topic?
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  #1033  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:32 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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That's how I see it as well. There needs to be 2 teams in the Maritimes eventually. If this is to come to fruition in my life time, Moncton must come first. Long term, it's best for all Maritimers if this is how it pans out.
Obviously my lack of understanding about sports is showing now - why does Moncton need to be the first to get the team?

I'm assuming that because the catchment areas for HRM and Moncton overlaps and you have a stadium? See I don't agree - I would be more supportive of HRM getting the team; but I think that's just my bias for Halifax.
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  #1034  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:53 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
Obviously my lack of understanding about sports is showing now - why does Moncton need to be the first to get the team?

I'm assuming that because the catchment areas for HRM and Moncton overlaps and you have a stadium? See I don't agree - I would be more supportive of HRM getting the team; but I think that's just my bias for Halifax.
The feeling is that if Halifax gets a team first then Moncton will be forgotten. If Moncton gets a team first then there will be a push from Haligonians to also get a team.

In my opinion, the Halifax area should have had a team back in1983 and would have had a team if more support from the municipal and provincial government had existed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Schooners
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  #1035  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 4:59 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Check out KC Stadium in Hull, UK. It was built for $69 million in 2002. It holds 25,400 seats. A roof protects the fans from the weather and has no obstructed views. Something like this stadium would be just perfect for Halifax. The stadium is not over the top, yet provides more than just a bare box. This style of stadium can be used for sporting events as well as concerts.

http://www.kcstadium.co.uk/
The KC Stadium is an interesting stadium at an ecomomical price. There are others such as the new Cardiff City Stadium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_Stadium) that we don't hear much about in Canada. It would be a good idea to make a compilation of economically priced stadiums with some details included.

It is interesting that most UK stadiums have the seats covered.
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  #1036  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 5:08 AM
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What about the gorsebrook hill area!
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rf5...48&lvl=1&sty=b

It could definitely work... give some land to local residents... put a parking structure where the Jr. high is and try to keep the stadium as far away from inglis as possible!
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  #1037  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 7:14 AM
RyanNS RyanNS is offline
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
The KC Stadium is an interesting stadium at an ecomomical price. There are others such as the new Cardiff City Stadium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_City_Stadium) that we don't hear much about in Canada. It would be a good idea to make a compilation of economically priced stadiums with some details included.

It is interesting that most UK stadiums have the seats covered.
This is due to the fact that they see the majority of use during the winter months which as we know in the UK is a time of high precipitation. Most professional football/soccer leagues in the UK run from mid/late August - May.
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  #1038  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 9:07 AM
isaidso isaidso is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
Obviously my lack of understanding about sports is showing now - why does Moncton need to be the first to get the team?

I'm assuming that because the catchment areas for HRM and Moncton overlaps and you have a stadium? See I don't agree - I would be more supportive of HRM getting the team; but I think that's just my bias for Halifax.
My argument isn't about sports, but rooted in demographics and to a lesser extent football pedigree. We want Halifax and Moncton to both get a team eventually, but the case for Halifax is more compelling: Halifax is a far bigger city, has a larger corporate base, and a long history of supporting their local football team. Biases aside, Halifax just makes more sense.

If the eventual goal is a team in Halifax and a team in Moncton, Moncton must come before Halifax unless we're prepared to wait 2 or 3 generations for that 2nd Maritime team. I'm not prepared to wait that long.

If Halifax comes first, it will be argued that Moncton is simply too small to support a team just drawing from New Brunswick. I doubt the same argument would be made about Halifax. Halifax and Nova Scotia are large enough to support a pro football team by themselves.

So the crux of the argument is based on wanting 2 teams in the Maritimes. I'm from Halifax, but recognize that if Halifax gets the team first, Moncton is out of the question for a very very long time. If Moncton gets a pro football team first, Halifax will have to wait a while, but not that long.
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  #1039  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 10:32 AM
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I'd just like to raise the idea of Saint John getting a CFL team, instead of Moncton. They already have a stadium, Canada Games Stadium which has more than enough room for expandability, and would have deeper reach into Maine, while still capturing most of New Brunswick.

It would have a better shot, if Halifax got the team first. I mean shoot they're the only other Maritime city with a PBL team. How much water that carries, remains to be seen.
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  #1040  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2010, 8:16 PM
Welkin Welkin is offline
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Here is another great stadium that we should review. It is Liberty Stadium in Swansea, Wales. It was built for $42 million in 2005. It seats 20,532 including 29 private suites. It wouldn't take that much more to make it a 25,000 seat stadium.

http://www.liberty-stadium.com
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