The future of Ottawa's Transit

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

My thought for a Carling-Downtown streetcar line would go something like this, a dedicated surface row along one side of Carling, then along the QE Driveway, and then into a one-way loop into downtown (Catherine-Kent-Queen-O'Connor-Isabella). It could have a short tunnelled section at the messy Kirkwood/Queensway interchange, allowing it to switch to the north side of Carling as it continues west. It would link five large shopping centres (if you count Lansdowne as one) and a couple of hospitals. OC Transpo could even test this out with a bus route (maybe modify the 85).

First, destroy the NCC.

Then, I'd continue the Green Line north along the canal to a "station" under the Laurier bridge, and maybe then to a turnaround point at one of the central LRT stations. This would add a couple more Green line stations, including one at Corkstown with connection to future Campus LRT, and make for a more intuitive, logical, comfortable, and useful route in/out of downtown.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

So you suggest we replace 60' artics with less frequent 40' buses? I can tell you that for route #12 that isn't a viable option.

Tell that to OCTranspo, who, after the 2/12 split, dropped up to 16 runs of the 12 per day (compared to the last pre-strike schedule of the old 2), and replaced dozens of artic runs per day with 40 footers.

They have replaced some of the lost capacity by this "service improvement" with the last two schedules, but it's still not back to status quo ante.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The purple line is part of my thought for an eastern counterpart streetcar travelling along Laurier-MacArthur (with a new transit/ped/bike bridge across the Rideau) towards La Cité Collegiale and the Rockcliffe Base.

Eastern streetcar?

Rideau-Montreal, please. (Though I don't disapprove of Laurier, either... just after.)

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

It's not just the artics. None of the buses stuck on Bank St. were artics as far as I could tell.

Vehicles will get stuck when the snow is that thick and heavy- there's just no way around it. Cars can be pushed out- buses not so easily.

I found that in Winnipeg they have an emergency snow plan where service is focused on key corridors during a snow storm. Maybe we need something similar here?

http://winnipegtransit.com/en/special/snowplan

Considering we get snow storms like this every winter having some kind of plan would be a good idea. Kudos to Winnipeg for implementing one.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Tell that to OCTranspo, who, after the 2/12 split, dropped up to 16 runs of the 12 per day (compared to the last pre-strike schedule of the old 2), and replaced dozens of artic runs per day with 40 footers.

They have replaced some of the lost capacity by this "service improvement" with the last two schedules, but it's still not back to status quo ante.

Splitting routes has done little to improve the schedules. The #12's still show up in bunches of 2-3 buses in the afternoon rush hour.

[eternallyme]

Any plan that should be drawn should have 4 distinct stages:

Stage 1 - All routes operating, all buses in service, but pre-set detours to avoid trouble spots. (Likely would be used at least 6 to 8 times a year, in most significant snow events)

Stage 2 - Removal of articulated buses from service. Schedules adjusted to account for loss of 300+ buses, focus on collectors, arterials and Transitways with further detours and some shortening of routes to avoid trouble areas. On weekends, there would be no schedule adjustment (just running with 40-foot buses) but routing changes would still apply. (Likely would be used, on average, once or twice a year - and the level that I would have run at on Wednesday starting at about 3 pm)

Stage 3 - Service on arterial roads and Transitways only for the most part, maintaining critical connections. For the most part, only major routes would operate - primarily the Transitway routes and core on-street routes like the 1, 2, 12, 85 and 118. At this point, trying to serve the most critical facilities is the key. (Likely would be rarely used, perhaps once every few years)

Stage 4 - Complete suspension of all service. For a snow event, this would be only if plows are removed from the roads. As far as I know, that has never happened.

Most likely, the O-Train would be unaffected unless there are trees on the tracks or other hazards, and may be able to run even in a complete bus suspension, depending on the circumstances (although there would be no transfer opportunities).

[Catenary]

On my point of using tractors to pull buses in problem spots, here's a great example:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...lays-snow.html

[lrt's friend]

First of all, we need to examine our snow clearing policy. Have we been quietly cutting back to save money? I would not be surprised if the answer is yes. At some point there needs to be an assessment of whether there is a point when snow clearing service cutbacks are backfiring by seriously impacting mobility in the city and particularly our transit service. If we make the service unreliable, then why would some taxpayers choose that option? Of course, there is a point when the weather will cause problems no matter what. Large amounts of heavy wet snow will pose a big problem for traffic.

Cancelling bus routes is not an option. We have already thinned out the service making for longer walks. Focussing service to major routes will leave a lot of people simply out in the cold. Can you imagine the outrage? And remember, the horrible state of our sidewalks. The roads were bad but the sidewalks were worse, often much worse.

The city's policy of widespread implementation of articulated buses is impacting the reliability of service. They have been known since the 1980s when we first bought them that they don't handle snow well. They never get better because they are not designed for this climate. But the city continues to buy more and it is all about economics rather than service.

I do hope that the city starts reflecting on their choices and with the implementation of LRT that the city should start moving away from articulated buses. Yes, regular buses do not have the same passenger capacity but in the end, a service that is more reliable and more frequent will be more attractive to our population.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

First of all, we need to examine our snow clearing policy. Have we been quietly cutting back to save money? I would not be surprised if the answer is yes. At some point there needs to be an assessment of whether there is a point when snow clearing service cutbacks are backfiring by seriously impacting mobility in the city and particularly our transit service. If we make the service unreliable, then why would some taxpayers choose that option? Of course, there is a point when the weather will cause problems no matter what. Large amounts of heavy wet snow will pose a big problem for traffic.

I don't think it has anything much to do about policy per se but rather the buses-getting-stuck issue is a result of the way roads are cleared combined with where buses operate.

Put simply:

1. We plow snow to the right edge of the road.
2. Buses travel to the right and they come to stops at the right edge of the road.

Snowfalls, especially heavy, wet snowfalls, immediately before and during peak periods leave no margin to remove the snow banks that are formed at the sides of the road. So we end up with buses operating in the same places as the snow is being piled up.

Further adding to the grief is that because the roads are drained to the right edge and the drains are now conveniently covered by snow banks, the road immediately to the left of the snow bank will be accumulating water and creating slush, which of course reduces traction.


These are inherent weaknesses with operating buses in snowy conditions.

Designing our roads to drain to the centre or left would probably help but this would clearly take a long time to accomplish and it might not help too much with this wet snow since it forms slush on contact anyway. We'd also still have the snow bank issue to contend with.

Where possible, we could opt to plow roads to the left to keep snow banks away from buses. That would work for one-way streets like Slater and Albert and divided arterials like Carling.

But basically we just don't have a lot of good options. Reducing the dependency of the transit system on buses is probably the best approach; the more rail we use, be it O-Trains, light rail, trams or even streetcars, the fewer snow issues we're likely to have.

[eternallyme]

During relatively dry, powdery snow, even of high accumulations, there seems to be only modest impact on transit service. There were only moderate issues on February 8 despite about 30 cm falling that day. It's heavy, wet snow that gets the buses stuck.

Many other cities would have likely suspended all service during Wednesday's storm.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

Splitting routes has done little to improve the schedules. The #12's still show up in bunches of 2-3 buses in the afternoon rush hour.

And in the morning.

And the 2, too.

So, since splitting has done SFA, can we have seamless downtown crosstown routes back please?

[toaster]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

During relatively dry, powdery snow, even of high accumulations, there seems to be only modest impact on transit service. There were only moderate issues on February 8 despite about 30 cm falling that day. It's heavy, wet snow that gets the buses stuck.

Many other cities would have likely suspended all service during Wednesday's storm.

While not as large as OC Transpo, I have used both Sudbury Transit and Timmins Transit in much worse conditions and there was nowhere near the amount of issues that we saw in Ottawa. To me the issue was the plows, not the buses.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by toaster

While not as large as OC Transpo, I have used both Sudbury Transit and Timmins Transit in much worse conditions and there was nowhere near the amount of issues that we saw in Ottawa. To me the issue was the plows, not the buses.

Under what climatic or meteorologic conditions does Sudbury or Timmins get the kind of heavy wet snowfall we had last week? That circumstance was already fairly rare here in Ottawa, but the further removed one is from the Atlantic seaboard the rarer it would be. Kingston, Toronto, heck Vancouver probably all get more wet snow than we do but Timmins or Sudbury?.

It's the combination of wet snow and temperatures hovering around the freezing mark that allowed water to exist in a liquid state (and turn already wet snow into slush) for an extended period of time that created the conditions for large numbers of buses to get stuck. Sudbury and Timmins are both colder than Ottawa so it's highly unlikely these conditions would occur all that often - certainly less frequently than here where it is already rare.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Dado

Under what climatic or meteorologic conditions does Sudbury or Timmins get the kind of heavy wet snowfall we had last week? That circumstance was already fairly rare here in Ottawa, but the further removed one is from the Atlantic seaboard the rarer it would be. Kingston, Toronto, heck Vancouver probably all get more wet snow than we do but Timmins or Sudbury?.

It's the combination of wet snow and temperatures hovering around the freezing mark that allowed water to exist in a liquid state (and turn already wet snow into slush) for an extended period of time that created the conditions for large numbers of buses to get stuck. Sudbury and Timmins are both colder than Ottawa so it's highly unlikely these conditions would occur all that often - certainly less frequently than here where it is already rare.

In those cities, such conditions would normally only be likely in the late fall and early to mid-spring (too much cold, dry air present in the peak of winter), and even then they rarely produce 30 cm of heavy, wet snow due to the distance from the key moisture sources (maybe 10-15 cm). The climate there is more comparable to the Prairies, where high winds and blizzards - not snow moisture - is the big issue.

Consider that Sudbury is nearly twice the distance to the Atlantic as Ottawa (and Timmins over 2 1/2 times the distance), so that combines to produce a lot more moisture in Ottawa (as well as in Toronto) than in Northern Ontario in the winter months. That means that redeveloping Nor'easters (the most prolific snowmakers of all in our part of the world) have almost no impact in Sudbury or Timmins, but can have at least some impact on Ottawa (not always, but sometimes) depending on track.

Of course, the US Northeast and Atlantic Canada can get those storms more often still, and they can be legendary there...

[toaster]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

In those cities, such conditions would normally only be likely in the late fall and early to mid-spring (too much cold, dry air present in the peak of winter), and even then they rarely produce 30 cm of heavy, wet snow due to the distance from the key moisture sources (maybe 10-15 cm). The climate there is more comparable to the Prairies, where high winds and blizzards - not snow moisture - is the big issue.

Consider that Sudbury is nearly twice the distance to the Atlantic as Ottawa (and Timmins over 2 1/2 times the distance), so that combines to produce a lot more moisture in Ottawa (as well as in Toronto) than in Northern Ontario in the winter months. That means that redeveloping Nor'easters (the most prolific snowmakers of all in our part of the world) have almost no impact in Sudbury or Timmins, but can have at least some impact on Ottawa (not always, but sometimes) depending on track.

Of course, the US Northeast and Atlantic Canada can get those storms more often still, and they can be legendary there...

You'd be surprised. In the "middle" of winter, yes there are no problems, but the late Fall and early Spring temperatures that hover around -5 to 0 last much long in those parts of the province than in Ottawa. So it's not an issue of being close to the Atlantic, it's that the temperature is simply close to 0 with heavy snowfall, which then turns wet. Additionally, there is much more snow that is "melting" in the spring, so when there is snowfall in that time it's much worse.