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  #21  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2015, 1:58 AM
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It should be mentioned that, as a species, we don't see much above the third or fourth storey unless you're really looking to pay attention to it. As long as it's not creating a wind tunnel or too imposing a shadow, anything above the fourth storey is really just a matter of opinion or ego, if you're an architect. For anyone not looking at the city from a Cessna, you won't notice it.

I would rather have a city of commie blocks with an extraordinary relationship with the street than a thousand glittering Liebeskind towers that turn their arse to everything around them.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2015, 3:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
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Originally Posted by dleung View Post
Re: early Manhattan... if you applied the same standard we use today, everyone would be complaining about the "ubiquitous brown-brick apartments with setbacks up top" instead of the "ubiquitous blue glass condos with podiums". There was far less variety back then.

You're mixing me up with the AA fanboys. IMO, ornament just needs to have meaning. What's the meaning behind the tetris pieces at Yonge+Rich, or the zig-zag lines or combover roofs on half the condos in town? Or angles like on Clear Spirit condos, other than to frustrate the owners of the less-favorable balconies? Stuff like Picasso or B street condos, however, have complex facades, but with the purpose of suggesting liveable terraces and more human-scaled massing. While the former group of buildings would look silly if surrounded by similar designs, the latter group would be complimented by copies of it in various iterations. In fact, some designs demand it:


http://skyhigh.city/cloudscraper-a-c...pers-in-milan/

In hindsight I guess I should have pretended to have walked by Vancouver's Rolston building and used that as the example in the original post, to avoid some of the more irrelevant backlash, since Vancouver forumers are rarer in the Canada section
What kind of meaning do you feel the ornamentation in the Paris buildings you posted have? And the superficial decorative elements of other buildings of the era?
They thought it was classy. It helps hide imperfections. Laser-cut alucabond panels aren't available yet. The aesthetic didn't look stupid when repeated over and over again. Can't be said for most of the condos I've mentioned. It would be a shame if what some people take from this thread is "Churchhill condos baaaad". What are some condo projects that people think would look good repeated in similar iterations?
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  #23  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2015, 3:29 AM
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What a disaster of a mausoleum.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2015, 4:19 AM
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The Rolston looks pretty badly conceived, but nothing compares to "Churchill Estates" in Calgary. (Even the name is ridiculous.)



There can't possibly be a worse new condo building in Canada. There are plain, ugly, cheap-looking buildings everywhere (I'm sad to say that my neighbourhood has a fair number.)

But at least even the cheapest, shoddiest, crummiest looking building is usually semi-coherent, visually. This Churchill thing is like green-glass 90s Vancouver ran away with 80s postmodernism, with some awful faux classicism thrown in. An insane building.
That's not LaCaille is it? I don't think so, but it looks like one of their abortions and has the same kind of England-themed name.

I've never felt any sort of strong feelings towards developers, positive or negative, until I discovered LaCaille. God I hate them.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2015, 4:43 AM
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Churchill/Oscar/La Caille shit are all targeted at the same demographic... rich, old, white people who want to live next to the river. "Mausoleum" is pretty apt.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2015, 4:53 AM
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Originally Posted by dleung View Post
They thought it was classy. It helps hide imperfections. Laser-cut alucabond panels aren't available yet.
So in other words, the function was that it made the buildings look more pleasing to people based on the tastes of that culture during that era. The same as the intended purpose of most ornamentation including the examples you love lambasting.

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Originally Posted by dleung View Post
The aesthetic didn't look stupid when repeated over and over again. Can't be said for most of the condos I've mentioned...
Didn't look stupid to whom? To the average citizen of the day? To modern observers? To you?

You're assertion that ornamentation requires a "meaning" just seems very inconsistent. I can understand the modernist position of form follows function and of designing the functional elements in a way that also has an appealing aesthetic rather than dishonestly hiding the functional elements with superficial ornamentation. But to imply that superficial ornamental elements are acceptable despite their lack of function if they have some flimsy notion of "meaning" such as people feeling it looks better doesn't make sense. I'm sure there are plenty of ordinary people who feel the ornamental elements of even your most hated condos looks good.

As far as the question of when repetition really works, the answer is that it works only when it can effectively fade itself into the background. Humans have always lived in environments that were dominated by repetitive elements with a small number of interest gathering elements. Mostly forest and grasslands punctuated by the odd mountain, river, etc. Buildings with a uniform size, mass, and colouring create a sort of baseline much in the same way that natural elements can. The buildings in the Paris picture are a great example. They allow people to mainly notice a few focal points which in the case of Paris are grand monuments like triumphal arches, statues, fountains, obelisks and grand public buildings. These are either much larger than the surrounding cityscape, or are in a highly visible position such as in a major intersection or public square. And they are all unique from one another and impeccably designed. To the modern, untrained eye they may look similar, but in their era that would not have been the case.

Now in the context of a younger city like Toronto, the problem is with establishing the baseline. Most of the city is lowrise masonry buildings so these are attempting to form the aesthetic background or baseline. But when you add totally different buildings like highrise condos, they stick out because they're so big and different from the lowrises. So they tend to act as focal points. But they don't fulfill that role very well if they're not unique and impeccably designed. So our human brains don't know what to make of this environment. We can't ignore them, but we're frustrated by their unremarkable characteristics. When you combine the lowrise and midrise cityscape with unremarkable highrises, it is not consistent enough to be an effective baseline and we find it mentally jarring (and not aesthetically appealing). We either want the condos to not be highrises and instead be integrated into the lowrise cityscape (NIMBYs) or to be remarkable and unique highrises capable of fulfilling the role of focal points (skyscraper enthusiasts).

Unfortunately unless the similar highrises completely dominate the cityscape they simply cannot form an effective baseline. They're just to big and different and attract too much attention. They may be able to form the baseline in small parts of the city like downtown but even then that's difficult to do effectively because of other buildings from other eras.

Also, I find this is particularly an issue with glass. Because of its nature with being very sparkly and reflective, it tends to be a great option for a focal point and provides relief juxtaposed against duller materials. But as the baseline I've never found it very workable. It's just too harsh on the eye compared to duller looking materials.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2015, 2:21 AM
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Re: ornament... note in the Bosco Verticale project I posted, there is a white/dark-brown patterning on the balconies to give the façade an even more fragmented look. It's ornament, and serves no practical purpose, but highlights the terraces just enough while helping to camouflage their bulk in order to make the foliage stand out more. Hence, ornament that alludes to desired spatial qualities naturally works as part of the "baseline" and accommodates repetition, whereas cool patterns or massive gestures just for the sake of uniqueness will fall flat when copied.

Note that ornament in the old world exists primarily in cities, (or countryside mansions with urban affectations), where public spaces are carved out of an otherwise zero-lot-line standard for all buildings, like in a Nolli plan. Taking into account the heavy aesthetic of the materials available, a carved aesthetic on buildings doesn't seem to be that arbitrary. Instead of gargoyles, we now have metal flashing and roof drains. Also, the ornament wasn't meant to make the building stand out, but contribute to the urban fabric, which only worked when it conformed to it.

With high-rise condos, I don't think the main problem is materials, but rather massing. Glass isn't going away. It's performance is only going to get better with technology, and people want maximum light and views (it's good for indoor health). I tend to find that the most repeatable highrise designs attempt to become an vertical extension of a smaller-scale urban massing, or become an extension of nature itself.
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