Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[Genauso]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Probably about 20-30 of the lights on the east end have been out for well over a year. They're in groups of 8. Some of the lights have all 8 lights out, while several have all but a couple out.

You generally want to cover up exposed rebar as soon as you can, otherwise the corrosion can spread deeper and cause more spalling.

I've called 311 about street lights before, but I can't help but figure that since there are so many out that someone must be avoiding fixing the lights. On the east side, there are more lights out than are actually working by a fair margin.

I haven't tried calling 311 because I assumed it was intentional about the lights but you're definitely correct about the numbers. Post-deadpool maintenance was noticeably below post-Olympics closure maintenance levels.

[Vin]

If the viaducts are in a state of desrepair, more will agree to do away with the "unsightly defunct monster". If they maintain them like a world class city would, people may vehemently oppose to their tearing down. If there are accidents on the viaducts, then the City would have even bigger ammunition for their case as the bridges are now deemed "unsafe". If the viaducts collapse in the event of an earthquake because of the unpatched cracks and exposed rebars, the City can come forward and say "See, I told you so, should've torn them down sooner.".

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by MIPS

When was the last time any of this saw use and why was it taken out of service?

I vaguely recall seeing the edge lighting in the 1980s.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Probably about 20-30 of the lights on the east end have been out for well over a year. They're in groups of 8. Some of the lights have all 8 lights out, while several have all but a couple out.

You generally want to cover up exposed rebar as soon as you can, otherwise the corrosion can spread deeper and cause more spalling.

I've called 311 about street lights before, but I can't help but figure that since there are so many out that someone must be avoiding fixing the lights. On the east side, there are more lights out than are actually working by a fair margin.

Tell them there's a bike lane up there and they'll get it fixed tout suite.

[jlousa]

Interesting, been following the viaducts situation pretty closely and don't remember and requirement for Provincial funding. Seems quite late in the game to throw that lil tidbit out there. Looks like the reason du jour for taking them down immediately is that in an earthquake they would take out the skytrain.

Funding needed for Vancouver viaduct removal

VANCOUVER (NEWS 1130) – With just over a week left in the provincial election campaign, Vancouver’s mayor is calling on parties to commit funding to get rid of the Georgia and Dunsmuir viaducts.

Gregor Robertson says the pending demolition of the crossings needs support from Victoria.

“Hopefully, we have clarity from all the parties on what they will do to help us implement that change because there’s a big neighbourhood that’s about to be built right where the viaducts are -a big new park, lots of new housing and we want to get that project underway.”

Robertson says the provincial government’s commitment hasn’t been finalized yet, but construction is already slated to start next year.

“We’re working towards starting construction next year and building the road network on the ground before the viaducts can come down…If we get commitments in from the province and the various landowners.”

He adds the viaducts need to come down soon because they’re not seismically safe.

“If we have a major earthquake, the viaducts can come and take out the SkyTrain tracks, so that’s a big part of the reason we need to make this happen with some urgency.”

The $200 million dollar project is expected to be completed by 2025.

When it’s done, the new neighbourhood will include mixed housing and a 13-acre park.

Source:http://www.news1130.com/2017/04/29/f...aduct-removal/

[Metro-One]

200 million now? Wasn't it 100 million before?

Also no, this is not a provincial project, this is the city's pet project of removing useful existing infrastructure.

The province better not give the city a single penny for this.

[WarrenC12]

I think the commitments from "the province and various landowners" probably refers to the area around BC Place and Rogers Arena that may need to be part of the new roads but not currently owned by the city.

[aberdeen5698]

"Not seismically safe" is BS. There are plenty of other structures in this city that are at a lot bigger risk in an earthquake that ought to be dealt with before the viaducts.

[Sheba]

“If we have a major earthquake, the viaducts can come and take out the SkyTrain tracks, so that’s a big part of the reason we need to make this happen with some urgency.”

Wouldn't that be another way to limit people travelling into downtown Van - something they seem to be striving for...

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think the commitments from "the province and various landowners" probably refers to the area around BC Place and Rogers Arena that may need to be part of the new roads but not currently owned by the city.

So you mean the Vision-friendly developers who will reap the benefits of this half-baked idea?

[retro_orange]

I totally see how developers will be getting a wash of new land to develop and the developer friends of the city could have very likely instigated this plan but the earthquake risks are completely legitimate. A large part of the viaducts are on reclaimed land.

Sure there are tons of other structures in the city that will collapse in an earthquake but what other infrastructure would have as great of an impact if it did fail?

Very few. If they both failed they would cut off downtown from essential services and render an important section of the skytrain line out of service for likely a year or two if not more. The rubble from the viaducts would block ground level streets aswell. In theory they could start rebuilding everything immediately but in this city?

No. There would definitely be tons of new planning associated with a rebuild and there's no way it would make sense to rebuild the skytrain guideway to wind around viaducts or rebuild viaducts that are part of a non existent highway.

The only reason the viaducts kinda work for traffic in the city now is because of numerous attempts at re-configuring the old street grid to accommodate essentially useless bits of infrastructure after the highway project was canceled.

The idea that the new road is a gong show is also heavily flawed as it very likely without a doubt will too be reconfigured over time but more easily than if it were floating in the sky precariously over a skytrain guideway.

[jlousa]

Did you read the very reports commissioned by the city and linked to in this thread several times? The viaducts are not at risk of collapse during an expected earthquake. It would take a 1/1000yr quake to damage the viaducts to the point they would most likely not be usable. The viaducts were already seismically upgraded once and the report gave recommendations on what would be needed to survive the "big" one.

[Pinion]

lol. Facts have no place here!

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Did you read the very reports commissioned by the city and linked to in this thread several times? The viaducts are not at risk of collapse during an expected earthquake. It would take a 1/1000yr quake to damage the viaducts to the point they would most likely not be usable. The viaducts were already seismically upgraded once and the report gave recommendations on what would be needed to survive the "big" one.

You mean the report released in 2015 that states it's not economically feasible to seismically retrofit them to current standards? I know the one.

The frequency of damaging earthquakes is also more often then you have stated. The fact that they have not been well maintained over the years makes me more than doubtful.

The columns are also spaced too far apart and some placed on fill. You cannot tell me that they know the composition of exactly what is under each individual columnwithout digging it out to check. All it takes is one to give to cause a major disruption. If only one column gave and sank in the wrong spot the sections of roadway that would fall could either take out the skytrain line, damage the other viaduct or block street access.

You pick and choose and fudge things too much. Also being reactive and shutting down proactive conversation is toxic and very poor planning.

And the sidewalks and lanes are too narrow, and the water runoff systems need to be rebuilt etc. They cost far more to maintain than a street at ground level. Poor use of tax dollars to maintain part of a nonexistent highway viaduct...

Yeah keep talking down to me.

[WarrenC12]

The earthquake argument is always a funny one. It's used to push the GMT replacement, but not Patullo.

It gets brought up for the viaducts, but in both directions depending on who you talk to.

And of course there's the hundreds of schools around the province that the government doesn't seem to care about fixing...

[p78hub]

I think that in the event of an earthquake large enough to bring down the viaducts, SkyTrain will not be running anyway. Or maybe they really believe a 5.0 is going to destroy them.

I mean, let's be honest. The Big One is going to be 8.0-9.0. I'm 100% certain that most of the SkyTrain network is going to be completely unusable when that happens, and not just because of a section of viaduct falls on the tracks. And I really hope that the city's first concern in a major earthquake isn't the status of the SkyTrain when half the region's hospitals will be severely damaged or destroyed.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The earthquake argument is always a funny one. It's used to push the GMT replacement, but not Patullo.

It gets brought up for the viaducts, but in both directions depending on who you talk to.

And of course there's the hundreds of schools around the province that the government doesn't seem to care about fixing...

The GMT also was studied, and it was determined that in a (going off memory here) 6.5 earthquake the tunnel would fail. Literally. What is that? A 1 in 100 year earthquake in our region?

The viaducts, that were built to replace the previous viaducts, as mentioned are safe and in good condition. If the viaducts fell, large segments of the skytrain track would certainly fall all along the network as well.

Addition:

In 2007 it was
recognized that the Tunnel’s seismic vulnerability could not be fully addressed with a retrofit. As
such the Ministry completed sufficient structural upgrades to the Tunnel to protect public safety
and installed an early warning system to prevent access to the Tunnel during seismic events
greater than the 1-in-275 year event.

The Tunnel was designed to the very limited seismic design considerations of the 1950s. Even
with extensive seismic retrofit work, it is not practical to bring the Tunnel to current seismic
standards.

In 1989 the Ministry undertook a study to investigate the Tunnel’s seismic vulnerability. [2] The
study concluded that unacceptable elastic stresses would develop in the Tunnel cross section with
a 1-in-100-year earthquake.

Given the uncertainty of the effectiveness of the Stage 2 retrofit works, they were abandoned, and
an Emergency Road Closure System (ERCS) was installed. The ERCS prevents access to the Tunnel
in seismic events greater than 1-in-275-year. Today the Tunnel remains estimated as being able to
withstand a 1-in-275-year earthquake [9] – far below today’s 1-in-2475-year standard.

I think thats good enough...lots more there
https://engage.gov.bc.ca/app/uploads...-July-2016.pdf

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The earthquake argument is always a funny one. It's used to push the GMT replacement, but not Patullo.

The earthquake argument is trotted out whenever a government wants to push an agenda. It's like the "goods movement" argument that highway proponents keep raising while they conveniently ignore the fact that it's commuters who are clogging the roads. Sure, there's an earthquake risk. But that's not the real motivation for doing the work.

Sadly, of all the major infrastructure in the region the Patullo is probably most at risk (heck, it's even at risk to high winds), yet all the money is going to the Massey Tunnel replacement. There's no better example of how much of a political football "earthquake risk" really is.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The earthquake argument is always a funny one. It's used to push the GMT replacement, but not Patullo.

It gets brought up for the viaducts, but in both directions depending on who you talk to.

And of course there's the hundreds of schools around the province that the government doesn't seem to care about fixing...

Because Pattullo would fail before the earthquake gets here anyways...

More seriously, Pattullo is likely founded on much more stable material than the GMT. The delta is much smaller there, and the North side of the bridge is likely in a denser till.

I think scour is the bigger problem with Pattullo. There is a "hole" in the river bed just downstream of the bridge. The corrosion, and seismics just add onto a huge list of things wrong with it. Don't sneeze too hard in that direction you know

For GMT to fail, the liquifaction would likely cause the immersed tube to float. Tunnels in soil are buoyant. If the tunnel floats, the seals between the segments are likely toast. I don't have intimate knowledge of how they go together, but I can't see it being terribly robust against dynamic forces and uplift.

[jlousa]

Back to the Viaducts... Lets see what the experts have to say about it. The very experts hired by the city no less.

Structural Review
The structural review of the viaducts indicates that the majority of the structure is currently in reasonably good condition. The section that crosses Main Street requires some minor retrofits in the short term and there are some other maintenance and repairs that are
required. The annualised bridge lifecycle maintenance cost (based on 1% of replacement costs) is approx $600,000/annum. Maintenance costs are generally related to replacement and patching of railings, guard rails, expansion joints and the repair/replacement of the roadway surface (asphalt, waterproofing membrane and concrete bridge deck). The
structures meet the design and loading standards at the time of construction, but do not meet current seismic design standards. Having said that and due to the nature of the structural system (girders built into pier caps), the structure should perform relatively well in an earthquake.
A summary of the anticipated costs to maintain the structure are provided
below:
•Yearly maintenance costs ~$25,000 per year
•Short Term retrofits ~$200,000
•Maintenance required in next 5+ years ~$1 million (barrier rehabilitation)
•Maintenance required in the next 15+ years - $3 million (deck and joint rehabilitation)
•Seismic upgrades ~$5 million
If the viaducts were retained it is estimated with the above maintenance they would have a remaining service life of 40+ years

Source: http://vancouver.ca/docs/eastern-cor...dy-summary.pdf