Portland Transit Mall Construction

[65MAX]

Yes, we are very close to that situation now. Especially with the influx of new residents into the central core. The economic importance of DT to the rest of the region is immense, and necessity will dictate that eventually, the regional rail system will HAVE to go underground to maintain accessibility to and through DT. The surface streets and blocks are simply too small for them to stay at grade. This is a key difference here in PDX that other cities (except maybe Boston) don't have, small blocks and narrow streets. Also, congestion on the surface streets, especially pedestrians, make it a safety issue as well.

[Wright Concept]

I wonder how much it would cost for Portland to have a Double decker LRV? They have these kind of trams/LRV's in Egypt and Hong Kong, I mean until the inevitable subway can be built.

Or they might have to do something bizarre like close off streets at stations to create a grade separation without a tunnel. But that just strains the street capacity even more.

[Urbanpdx]

With the amount we have spent on MAX we could have had enough to double deck over 67 lane miles of freeway.

[pdxman]

haha can you imagine...kidding aside i would like to see some improvements in the highways around here. Or they could try to repave the roads in the portland area. I borrowed a car yesterday to run some errands, and wow, DT portland roads are in SERIOUS disrepair. Potholes everywhere i thought it was just crappy suspension on the buses--i thought wrong.

[MarkDaMan]

^duh, downtown is torn up...If you aren't driving on roads with sewer/road/transit construction, they aren't any worse than anywhere else.

[pdxman]

Parts of DT are torn up, not all of it. But, by the feel of it it certainly seems like the lot of it IS. I'm not dumb, i realize 5th and 6th are torn up but i'm not referring to those streets when i talk about streets needing to be repaved. 23rd is horrible, plenty of DT streets other than 5th and 6th are in need of tlc, naito parkway south of DT is bad, and most of the streets in the neighborhood i live in are cracked and potholed as well. And justifying crappy roads in DT by saying they're like that everywhere else is ridiculous. I even recall reading a year or two ago that the city of portland was somewhere around 800 miles(don't know the exact figure) behind in road projects/repairs. I know we all love light rail and streetcar, but that doesn't mean we forget about the roads. Buses ride them too!

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by pdxman

Parts of DT are torn up, not all of it. But, by the feel of it it certainly seems like the lot of it IS. I'm not dumb, i realize 5th and 6th are torn up but i'm not referring to those streets when i talk about streets needing to be repaved. 23rd is horrible, plenty of DT streets other than 5th and 6th are in need of tlc, naito parkway south of DT is bad, and most of the streets in the neighborhood i live in are cracked and potholed as well. And justifying crappy roads in DT by saying they're like that everywhere else is ridiculous. I even recall reading a year or two ago that the city of portland was somewhere around 800 miles(don't know the exact figure) behind in road projects/repairs. I know we all love light rail and streetcar, but that doesn't mean we forget about the roads. Buses ride them too!

one thing to keep in mind though is that the city isn't just ignoring the condition of the streets; there's a budget and a schedule to get each one fixed. 23rd, for example, is supposed to be re-built either later this year or next year.

[pdxman]

Apologies for ranting...i know most here will disagree with me--i guess we can agree to disagree sorry for getting off topic

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by Urbanpdx

Except for light rail lines capacity is about 1/4 of a single lane of freeway.

And?

More freeway isn't going to help me, unless you want my legally blind ass tailgating you.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by Urbanpdx

With the amount we have spent on MAX we could have had enough to double deck over 67 lane miles of freeway.

Awesome! Think of all the neighborhoods we could've torn up! Oh well, maybe someday...

[Drmyeyes]

This is Portland Transit Mall Construction. Why take bait offered by those that loathe mass transit? Instead of this continual grousing on their part, on a thread dedicated to this purpose, let them offer a serious, solid model that at least attempts to prove how their ideas can realistically work. They mostly just like to talk, throw numbers around and dream utopian dreams whose results would be Robert Moses asphalt guts ripping up entire valleys with the hot fetid air of buzzing metal and the gnashing teeth of entrapped drivers.

Rough streets? Just another good reason to ride light rail or street car or bicycles (bicycles aren't the vehicles creating broken roads and potholes...it's busses and trucks, but also cars....studded tires aggravate that situation)

Potholes? I'm joking...but they're kind of traffic calming devices. Anything that keeps traffic from getting any faster than it is on 23rd has got to be a good thing. Somehow inform motorist that if they don't keep it down the city will install those speed bump thingies! Hope that day never comes...we'd be talking about real fun then.

[pdxman]

I'm not saying to expand roads, just to smooth them out...and i would gladly ride light rail more often if it came my way hint: build lrt down barbur, not milwaukee! Until then its a bumpy bus ride wherever i need to go

[mcbaby]

Originally Posted by Urbanpdx

Except for light rail lines capacity is about 1/4 of a single lane of freeway.

not this again.

[MarkDaMan]

Originally Posted by pdxman

I know we all love light rail and streetcar, but that doesn't mean we forget about the roads.

TriMet pays for rail, mostly from the feds who pay 60% of most of our heavy transportation projects, and also employee salary taxes. PDOT pays for the roads through mostly gas tax revenue, try not to confuse the two. Portland doesn't compete for money on rail vs. freeway. If you want better roads raise the gas tax, just like the employeer tax was raised to pay for the new light rail extension to Clack.

[Urbanpdx]

Originally Posted by alexjon

And?

More freeway isn't going to help me, unless you want my legally blind ass tailgating you.

No, I don't but for far far far less money we could supply you with a couple of people 24/7 to drive you around in a Rolls Royce.

[Urbanpdx]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

Awesome! Think of all the neighborhoods we could've torn up! Oh well, maybe someday...

How, exactly, would double decking the freeways tear up neighborhoods?

[NJD]

I apologize in advance for continuing this asinine rhetoric, but statistics can be deceiving:

67 lane miles of freeway

= 11.15 miles of freeway at Metro standard 6 lane wide = double decking the the Banfield, but what about I-5, US 26, I-205, I-405, Ore 217, etc...

light rail lines capacity is about 1/4 of a single lane of freeway

Awesome! We don't know how often train headways are or how many vehicles are attatched in this randomly unsupported fact, but if we assume Portland style LRT then that means 1/4 of all those cars in that bogged down, usually overcrowded lane of freeway are not having to find parking spaces, use gasoline, create air and soil and water and noise pollution, and the people get there without traffic headaches or get stuck behind accidents and don't have that pesky road rage I've seen us Oregonians and Washingtonians get.

thanks Urbanpdx for supporting Light Rail!!!

[Urbanpdx]

Just look at the cost of Light rail to Vancouver

Compared to Express Bus-Short, light rail costs $302,000 per increased rider that wouldn't take the bus
Compared to Express Bus-Long, light rail costs $495,000 per increased rider that wouldn't take the bus

It would literally be cheaper to buy a Pearl district condo for each of those light rail riders that would not ride the bus.
Effect of Light Rail on Traffic Congestion

The proposed light rail system is forecasted to increase the capacity across the Columbia by only 7%.

Are new riders attracted to transit by Light Rail?

Compared to Express Bus-Short, rail gives a 31% increase in ridership for $1.2 billion.
Compared to Express Bus-Long, rail gives an 18% increase in ridership for $1.19 billion.
(Spending 37 times the money increases transit ridership by only18%.)

Questions that should have been asked:

How much must we spend on a deluxe bus system to match the ridership of light rail?

How many riders would we get if we spent $1.2 billion on a really good bus system?

For a given amount of money, which option will give the highest transit use?

How accurate are the projections?
(The Eastside light rail was 55% over budget,
the Westside light rail was 394% OVER budget,
tram is now 700% over its original estimate, )

Vancouver Light Rail simply Costs too much and does too little.

[NJD]

here we go again...

only the eastside line was overbudget, and that was one of the first lines built in America.
EDIT: westside MAX was 2.6 times over the early cost analysis done by Metro in 1979, this was due to the addition of a tunnel boring route and 19 years of inflation and high cost technology advances.
EDIT: RED and YELLOW lines were finished under budget and on time!

The Aerial Tram is/was paid for 85% by OHSU, OHSU also caused the majority of the extra costs by building their building where the upper station was supposed to be anchored into bedrock, the rest of the money comes from development in SOWA.

ompared to Express Bus-Short, light rail costs $302,000 per increased rider that wouldn't take the bus
Compared to Express Bus-Long, light rail costs $495,000 per increased rider that wouldn't take the bus

um... right, realistic math doesn't include saying how much it would cost for ONE DAY WORTH OF RIDES when this system would last 100 years!

The proposed light rail system is forecasted to increase the capacity across the Columbia by only 7%.

AWESOME! almost 10% increase in capacity for just adding LRT, wow! I wonder if we would need a new bridge if we simply added LRT, a new bridge to Jantzen Beach to get rid of those traffic stalling I-5 ramps, added additional local bus service, and widening I-5 from the state border through the Rose Quarter to 3 lanes in each direction! (I can't believe I-5 THE west coast freeway bogs down to 2 lanes in each direction at Columbia Blvd. and at the Rose Quarter 1/4 mile from another Interstate interchange! I understand it was all based on 1960's Moses planning, but come on! Fix that before spending 2-6 BILLION on a new bridge for Couv commuters)

[NJD]

Let's stop this urbanpdx.. and get back to news on the Transit Mall Construction.

Question: does anyone know how much it costs to tunnel bore LRT or BART style tubes in ground like Portland's? To cut-and-cover? I'm looking for real numbers on the actual cost of the tunneling, not what goes in it... I'm trying to get actual costs put together for twin tunnels through downtown Portland.