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  #281  
Old Posted: Feb 26, 2007, 1:56 AM
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DevdogAZ DevdogAZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Downtown_resident View Post
Unfortunately the city is still locked into its desperation/"silver bullet" mentality. Instead of noting the development of parts of downtown and realizing that-- I think-- success is just around the corner, the city continues to panic and give millions to suburban developers to build PF Chang's anchored-megablocks. It's too bad. With 44 Monroe, Orpheum Lofts, light rail and the Jackson Street Retail District coming on line I bet we could have held out and found a creative solution to be able to rejuvenate and preserve Patriots Park and develop the parking lots on Blocks 22 and 23. Unfortunately, we may never know.

http://downtownphoenix.blogspot.com
While I agree that the transformation of DT will not be complete without the small, unique, homegrown retailers and projects, I don't understand the disdain for the large ones. Why all the hate towards CityScape? Do you really think that anyone besides a huge developer with mega-block type plans could afford the land on Blocks 22 and 23 to be able to make anything of them? There is a place for P.F. Changs just like there is a place for the other unique places. They are not mutually exclusive and they CAN coexist.

And while I agree that the current plans for Block 77 are uninspired, they're certainly better than what's there now. What is it about PSP that made people want to "preserve" it? It's ugly, non-functional, and run down. We can argue all day about the best use for that block, but you'll never get everyone to agree and the bottom line is that someone is going to update it and make it more usable.
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  #282  
Old Posted: Feb 26, 2007, 9:49 AM
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Originally Posted by DevdogAZ View Post
What is it about PSP that made people want to "preserve" it?
I could be wrong here, since I'm not a SavePSP kind of guy but....

I don't think anyone anywhere wanted to save the 'park' the way it is now. Some people wanted it at least brought back to "what it once was" (which from what I hear wasn't much either, but I'm too young to know). But mostly, I think a lot of the opposition was from left leaning (don't mean that negatively) people who are highly opposed to the idea of giving 'public' land to a private developer. From the 3 or 4 meetings I attended, thats the same vibe I kept getting. Some of the SavePSP seemed to hold borderline Marxist/all private property is bad type view points, so if thats where you're coming from, obviously the situation w/ PSP is going to piss you off.
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  #283  
Old Posted: Mar 7, 2007, 2:23 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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Here is the rendering showing the park space.

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  #284  
Old Posted: Mar 7, 2007, 1:57 PM
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I'm guessing that those are the pedestrian bridges over Central Ave., right? I think it looks pretty cool, even if it's only a glorified shopping plaza. It's still a hell of a lot better than what's there now! I do like the grass, and it looks like they've gotten the hint about shade trees.
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  #285  
Old Posted: Mar 7, 2007, 3:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sundevilgrad View Post
I'm guessing that those are the pedestrian bridges over Central Ave., right? I think it looks pretty cool, even if it's only a glorified shopping plaza. It's still a hell of a lot better than what's there now! I do like the grass, and it looks like they've gotten the hint about shade trees.
I only see one pedestrian bridge over Central, which will be on the north side of the block.
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  #286  
Old Posted: Mar 7, 2007, 3:45 PM
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You are correct. For some reason I thought the people up close were on a bridge, but it's just a balcony
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  #287  
Old Posted: Mar 7, 2007, 5:05 PM
kevininlb kevininlb is offline
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I'll preface by saying i'm no fan of PSP and totally support CityScape. But i have to say, I sort of understand what the PSP supporters are saying about this not really being a park. It sort of reminds me of the short-lived trend in NYC (and probably elsewhere in the 1970s, I think) where big huge buildings were built with park-type areas out front. These things never really took off and I remember way back, when I was growing up in NYC, that there was a lot of talk on news shows about how these areas -- the word is escaping me, oh maybe "plaza" -- sat empty outside of lunch hour. Anyway, I love the rendering and totally support something other than the current PSP.

Last edited by kevininlb; Mar 7, 2007 at 5:23 PM.
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  #288  
Old Posted: Mar 7, 2007, 5:37 PM
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Obviously much better than what’s currently there but damn that really is nothing more than a plaza. Is it me or didn’t the site plans seem to have more focal points like water features and ‘art opportunities’? I know it’s a very pre-lim rendering but from the site plan it seemed to have more variation in elevations and public staging areas. Also I’m assuming that is Central Avenue through the middle. If so what’s up with lack of shade? It looks like the trees ran away from the side walks they even have one of their own drawn humans squinting into the 120 degree sun. Oh well hope it gets off the ground soon.
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  #289  
Old Posted: Mar 7, 2007, 7:54 PM
soleri soleri is offline
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Whether or not this "park" is intended to look like this rendering, there's something fascinating about the starkness of it. I assume the shadowy high-rises in the background are the Wells Fargo and Renaissance towers so the vantage point is east of Central looking west. I'm not sure any of this will really work but I'm reminded of the Disney animated feature The Incredibles where the "city" was cartoonishly midcentury modern. Obviously you'd have more real-world details than what's depicted. Still, the severe modernism here is almost a pleasure.
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  #290  
Old Posted: Mar 7, 2007, 11:55 PM
phxatty phxatty is offline
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I like it. The space is limited, and it needs to be supported by retail or it will just become a place for homeless to collect. That sounds bad, and I don't mean to be insensitive, but that is what PSP is now.
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  #291  
Old Posted: Mar 9, 2007, 8:53 AM
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We're being talked about...

CityScape foes are a frustrating, silly group

Doug McEarchen, Arizona Republic

Feb. 25, 2007 12:00 AM

I don't believe I've ever seen Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon at the end of his rope before.

But there he was . . . legs metaphorically dangling and eyes literally rolling.

Gordon, in a meeting on the downtown CityScape development project, was exasperated. At wits' end.


He was fighting his instincts, which tell him to take citizen concerns seriously, no matter how preposterous they may sound. But the opposition to CityScape - well organized, armed with Web sites and lapel buttons and bereft of reason - finally found his limits. Fighting CityScape to keep that brickyard abomination called Patriots Square intact was just too much.

No Phoenix issue is more perfectly suited to exasperate even the most patient among us than the fight over the downtown CityScape project.

The fact that it has gotten the necessary green lights is almost beside the point. The Phoenix Parks Board (which has the final say over disposition of the city's parks, even faux parks like Patriots) voted 5-2 on Thursday evening to approve the $900 million CityScape design.

The ultimate outcome was a given. It would have been just too insane for any responsible board to side with the dissenters and say no. The exhausting process to get to Thursday's decision, however, should not have been a given. It should not be this difficult for the inner core of a city the size of Phoenix to gain this kind of value.

The message that the CityScape debate has sent to developers curious about investing in downtown Phoenix? Either arrive with limitless patience and the resources to buck weeks or months of frustrating delay or go scrape the desert, instead.

Really, nothing better explains the absurdity of egalitarianism gone mad than the resistance to CityScape, the greatest infusion of private investment into downtown Phoenix ever.

Nothing better explains why developers prefer scraping clean the desert periphery in the suburbs than enduring the torture of instantly organized activists opposed to virtually every infill project in the already developed urban core.

It is the perfect juxtaposition of something very good - that being a huge infusion of private investment into a region that has seen nothing like it in almost 30 years - with something really wretched, which is Patriots Square.

The debate reached its nadir when opponents extended their reservations beyond the usual "sop to developers" language, an argument that under more-reasonable circumstances can have great merit.

Yes, the city has spent enormous sums, haplessly, to make Patriots Square a viable, attractive place. If that investment had not produced a baking brickyard on top and a scary, concrete rainforest of a parking garage below, the investment argument would have a lot more substance to it.

The opposition did not stop there. On various Internet blogs (and, indeed, in the numerous earlier public forums), the opponents argued that CityScape's design is just too suburban for them.

I'm not entirely sure what this means, other than demonstrating that people do enjoy pretending to be urban designers and architects.

But the discussion got silliest when it came to the most fundamental discussion of all: the question of private property vs. public property. And, really, that is the heart of the debate.

Time and again, opponents have argued against the essential nature of CityScape, a project on three square downtown Phoenix blocks, including one square block that is Patriots Square. Oppo-leader Alex Votichenko expressed it best earlier this month at a public hearing on the project's design: "What I see here is not a public park. I see taxpayer-funded landscaping."

Well, no. There's a bit more than that. Like the promise of downtown life. But since development opponents are so fervent in their hostility to the idea of people making money from these deals, they would just as soon keep the forbidding brickyard as it is, thank you very much.
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  #292  
Old Posted: Mar 9, 2007, 11:02 AM
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That is actually hillarious!
What a good article-
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  #293  
Old Posted: Mar 9, 2007, 12:15 PM
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HooverDam HooverDam is offline
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I'm not thrilled with the design either, but the Save PSP group shot themselves in the foot with their bizarre tactics. Dressing up in costumes, mocking the mayor, calling a developer the Devil, acting as is all private interests are evil and I'm sure carrying hundreds of copies of Howard Zinn books in your book bag is not a great way to be taken seriously. They came across as kids who missed out on arts and crafts class and are now trying to make up for it.
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  #294  
Old Posted: Mar 14, 2007, 4:29 PM
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That actually looks decent!
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  #295  
Old Posted: Mar 20, 2007, 2:16 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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Here are a couple emails I exchanged with John...

I wanted to see if any new updates are available on the project.

Sounds like we hope to break ground in July if all goes well. We have an update meeting later this week where I should get some more info.

Any word on new renderings?

April-May timeframe from what I’m told.
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  #296  
Old Posted: Mar 20, 2007, 2:46 AM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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There were surveyors in the park and the empty parking lot yesterday taking measurements and shit. Not sure if they were in relation to the cityscape or the train.
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  #297  
Old Posted: Apr 17, 2007, 3:45 PM
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Wow, Cityscape has become eerily silent. I thought maybe they would be knee-deep in permitting, but the Phoenix Development permitting website doesn't show any recent updates. I've been downtown for 2 Diamondbacks games and 1 Suns game in the last week and each time I've parked at PSP. Other than Light Rail construction there isn't much of anything going on. It seems like they're going to have an awfully hard time getting to ground breaking in July at this pace.

Does anyone have any kind of news on this?
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  #298  
Old Posted: Apr 17, 2007, 4:01 PM
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This is the first time I have looked at this thread.. Seems VERY similar to the City Creek Center in SLC..
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  #299  
Old Posted: Apr 17, 2007, 4:10 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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This is an email just received...

"Nothing new of any magnitude to report. Working diligently on the parking garage and overall design."
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  #300  
Old Posted: Apr 17, 2007, 5:01 PM
kevininlb kevininlb is offline
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I have nothing to report, as a way of prefacing what I'm about to say. I met Mayor Gordon last week -- at a convention in Scottsdale (which was billed as being in "phoenix" ... ???) -- and had like 2 seconds to say "hello." I said, "Okay, I moved to Phoenix last year, love it, but we really need CityScape and Jackson Street Entertainment District." He sort of laughed and said "they'll happen," before walking down a Queen-Elizabeth-type of meet-and-greet line. I know, that means nothing. But the whole thing was sort of funny and, in some way, reassuring.
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