HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     
Welcome to the SkyscraperPage Forum

Since 1999, the SkyscraperPage Forum has been one of the most active skyscraper enthusiast communities on the web. The global membership discusses development news and construction activity on projects from around the world, alongside discussions on urban design, architecture, transportation and many other topics. Welcome!

You are currently browsing as a guest. Register with the SkyscraperPage Forum and join this growing community of skyscraper enthusiasts. Registering has benefits such as fewer ads, the ability to post messages, private messaging and more.

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Southwest

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #7041  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 5:09 AM
azcats azcats is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8
I agree with you Plinko. While looking at all those photos of Creek City in downtown Salt Lake City...I thought - Scottsdale Fashion Square in downtown Salt lake City. I think the development in S.L. city is very pretty. If you want thousands of people in metro Phoenix to say, "let's go shopping downtown..." you need to have a development like the one in Salt Lake City. The only people City Scape in Phoenix are going to attract are the people staying in the hotels downtown ...and/or people going to a Suns or DBacks game. I think it is a big "zero" compared to Salt Lake City. I grew up in the northeast Valley - Scottsdale/Paradise Valley...I remember as a young boy going to Park Central...then, Thomas Mall...then, Fashion Square & the Biltmore. When I was a kid..Fashion Square was just Goldwaters and A.J. Bayless(groceries). When The Biltmore & Fashion Square really took off - like Saks fith Ave at the Biltmore and adding Sakowitz in 1973 at Fashion Square...who would/why go to downtown Phoenix? Other than going to Brophy my freshman and sophomore years in high school - going to downtown Phoenix was like going to the moon. Why?!? I was born in St. Joes Hospital. Yet, I know more about downtown Phoenix now than I ever did while growing up in Arizona. I appreciate the old there now...and have invested there - but, I am disappointed how it is progressing...in its rebirth. Or, the lack of progression. Let's face it...there is a lot of prejudice regarding downtown Phoenix. Living in California for as long as I have...I think it isn't so bad...but, family and friends that live there in the Valley think I'm stupid for investing in "South Phoenix." Uh, 4th Ave south of Roosevelt- north of Mckinley ...south Phoenix?!? And as I have said before...so many people think asu is building the (UofA) medical school downtown...or, that "downtown" is the corner of Camelback and Central. When I was growiing up - that corner was called "uptown." For a city of 1.5 million and a metro area of 4.2 million ...NOT GOOD! Do you realize that Little Rock, Arkansas - with a METRO population of roughly 400,000 (the same population as Mesa)..Little Rock's tallest building - downtown - is taller than downtown Phoenix's tallest - the Chase Bank Building! Maybe, they should have never zoned to allow tall buildings to go up along Central...Wilshire Blvd - it is not. Maybe, Phoenix then would have a real downtown today.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7042  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 4:57 PM
PHX31's Avatar
PHX31 PHX31 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Central PHX
Posts: 6,119
The thing that City Creek did well was have one giant grand opening with everything ready and open at the same time (except maybe the residential... or is that open there too?).

When CityScape opened it was basically a soft opening with a few retail spots open here and there and a restaurant or two... most of it was still under construction and "coming soon", which makes for a less than impressive opening. There wasn't a huge build up with everything exploding at the seams to open and the public beating down the door to get in. It's now a year or more later and stuff is still not open, or just opening.

Not to mention City Creek has the backing of the mormon church's money, which makes financing and design and development much easier when you basically have unlimited money and vision. Things will get built as they were planned, value engineering will probably be much more limited, and the City can ask/make them make it as nice as possible.

I was at CityScape this weekend watching some of the cornhole and hanging out... we also went to Vitamin T (hadn't tried it yet) for some tacos and beer. The restaurant was cool and the patio was serviceable, but looking across 1st St to the barren, dusty, empty, weed-growing lot that is to be "future" portions of CityScape, it was a huge downer. Even the area where they had Cornhole (Central) just feels "cooler" and better to hang out in. That whole east side of CityScape (Vitamin T, Yogurt place, Arrogant Butcher, Tilted Kilt) has the worst view ever, it makes it almost uncomfortable to hangout there with that desolate view. It is such a downer that we ended up leaving sooner than we would have if the whole area was hopping with bars and buildings and people, rather than a gigantic empty parking lot. We walked over to Ghost Bar/Seamus, which has a much better "feel" to the area.

I know City Creek doesn't have this problem.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7043  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 6:05 PM
HooverDam's Avatar
HooverDam HooverDam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country Club Park, Greater Coronado, Midtown, Phoenix, Az
Posts: 4,515
Quote:
Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan View Post
Something like City Creek might work in Midtown...Park Central Mall..
I think Park Central's potential/future is something more akin to Boston's Copley Square. A secondary core, outside of downtown, held together by a strong public plaza and flanked by shopping, offices, etc.

A public square/park replacing the parking lot in front of Park Central (running the width of its face) flanked on the North & South by towers w/ ground floor retail sort of thing. Like so:

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7044  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 7:51 PM
mgmAZCO mgmAZCO is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 98
I think we all definitely lament the tremendous missed opportunity that City Scape is. It isn't all together horrible, but many of us would have liked something more impressive and visually interesting. I finally had a chance to check it out in January and it was fairly underwhelming. It has some pros, and a lot of cons. One interesting thing was that the pedestrian bridge over Central Ave afforded you some great views of old City Hall, the Luhrs buildings, and the old Jefferson hotel. The unremarkable nature of the City Scape architecture really brings out the beauty of those older structures that surround it. Sort of a sad silver lining I know. It's probably good they didn't build the apartments above the retail, because many of those structures would have been completely walled off from view.

I especially didn't like all the changes in elevation...going up escalators, down stairs, across bridges, up steps. Seemed like they were all arbitrarily put in, not sure why that was considered a good design element? Maybe in 8 to 10 years they'll decide to renovate and have some sort of grand re-opening. Hopefully then they can incorporate some new and interesting features and architectural elements. Just my random thoughts/observations on the place...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7045  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 9:51 PM
combusean's Avatar
combusean combusean is online now
Skyriser
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Parkmerced, San Francisco, California
Posts: 4,458
I actually like the changes in elevation--the center of the development is supposed to be cohesive with the courtyard/plaza/Patriots Square "Park" in that the steps also provide a sort of stadium seating.

It's also quite functional, as the retail loading is off Jefferson St and the retail access is on top of that hump.

And Hoover that is an excellent plan for Park Central. One thing I would consider is replacing that southwest office tower with the pond that was there decades ago and is the reason for 3rd Ave's curve anyway. I would demolish the Hampton Inn since nobody is really going to miss it, and that parking garage on the north end will probably have to be rebuilt to accomodate additional vehicles--may as well throw some retail on its north and east sides. Maybe the garage could be replaced into a few towers with all the parking to go underneath the park square.

Unfortunately, Midtown is probably decades away from seeing that sort of retail/office/residential interest.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7046  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 10:27 PM
HooverDam's Avatar
HooverDam HooverDam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country Club Park, Greater Coronado, Midtown, Phoenix, Az
Posts: 4,515
^ Agreed on the Hampton, I guess I was thinking of that image as a Phase 1 sort of thing.

I didn't know about the Pond, it was probably long gone by the time I was old enough to be noticing such things. I don't think I've ever seen a picture of it, please post one if you have one.

It would also be nice for somewhere around Park Central to have a smaller branch campus of the MIM (like the Heard North) with a shuttle service running between the two locations.

E: Also I wonder what sort of larger retailers we could realistically hope to attract to both Downtown & The Park Central area in the next 10-20 years. The PHX area seems pretty saturated to me with Nordstroms, Barneys, Macy's and the like. Between Biltmore, Scottsdale Fashion, Chandler Fashion, the Quarter, Kierland, etc. it seems there's really no demand for high end retail to come to Downtown--- so something like what they have in SLC seems impossible.

I imagine the Park Central area could sustain slightly higher end stuff than Downtown proper because of its proximity to Willo, Encanto Palmcroft, Alvarado, North Central, etc. If we could get maybe a Macy's (not all that high end), Dillards & Sears to anchor Park Central with stores like JC Penny, Khols, TJ Maxx, Ross, PetSmart & a CityTarget going in Downtown that would be incredible.

Of course that doesn't even bring grocery stores into the discussion. Park Central would be a great place for a grocery store like a Sprouts, Whole Foods or Trader Joes, Sunflower, etc some day as CenPhx is completely devoid in that area. Something with a lunch counter facing that "Park Central Square" would be terrific. Downtown of course desperately needs the PHX Public Market to develop into something more like Philly's Reading Terminal or LAs Public Market and a Food City or Fresh & Easy would be great downtown (though F&E seems to be struggling).

Last edited by HooverDam; Mar 27, 2012 at 11:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7047  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2012, 11:09 PM
PHX31's Avatar
PHX31 PHX31 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Central PHX
Posts: 6,119
You can see historical aerials of Phoenix at this website:

http://www.fcd.maricopa.gov/GIS/maps.aspx

I don't see a pond there in the 1959 aerial, and Park Central Mall with the parking lots looks pretty brand new. When was a pond there and for how long?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7048  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 3:48 AM
mgmAZCO mgmAZCO is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 98
It's also quite functional, as the retail loading is off Jefferson St and the retail access is on top of that hump.

I'm glad it's functional for loading...I guess. Was more concerned with it being functional for the pedestrian, which it really isn't IMHO.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7049  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 4:16 PM
combusean's Avatar
combusean combusean is online now
Skyriser
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Parkmerced, San Francisco, California
Posts: 4,458
PHX, the pond was there when it was a dairy farm in the early 1950s before Park Central replaced the whole thing.

mgm, there's only so much you can do when lobbies and parking access for CityScape's towers gobble up the ground floor. It is one of the many reasons high-rises are typically antithetical to thriving street scenes. Besides, it is functional, but doesn't have the form urbanists want.

To me, it's kind of a throw back to the "nanogrid" of sorts a hundred years ago when the alleys between the blocks downtown were actually named and had businesses and residences off them.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7050  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 5:16 PM
PHX31's Avatar
PHX31 PHX31 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Central PHX
Posts: 6,119
/\ I'll have to take your word on it... I still don't see the pond in the 1930, 1949, nor 1951 aerial.

A trader joes would kill in park central mall.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7051  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 6:33 PM
combusean's Avatar
combusean combusean is online now
Skyriser
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Parkmerced, San Francisco, California
Posts: 4,458
^ Hmm... so it doesn't.. I've heard the pond story from multiple sources. I retract my comment. Thank you for investigating it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7052  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2012, 6:45 PM
HooverDam's Avatar
HooverDam HooverDam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country Club Park, Greater Coronado, Midtown, Phoenix, Az
Posts: 4,515
^Well lets call it an 'oasis' and blame it on heat induced visions.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7053  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2012, 9:53 PM
mgmAZCO mgmAZCO is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 98
mgm, there's only so much you can do when lobbies and parking access for CityScape's towers gobble up the ground floor. It is one of the many reasons high-rises are typically antithetical to thriving street scenes. Besides, it is functional, but doesn't have the form urbanists want.

To me, it's kind of a throw back to the "nanogrid" of sorts a hundred years ago when the alleys between the blocks downtown were actually named and had businesses and residences off them.


I guess it comes down to what you think the 'function' of the development is, specifically the retail portion. My belief was that it's supposed to be a gathering place for residents, as well as retail destination. When you create a plaza that's cut off from the street in three directions, and have a retail area that can't be viewed or accessed easily then it doesn't quite work to its full potential (If you're standing on 1st and Jefferson you'd have no idea that a whole retail/shopping/restaurant/plaza is running through the area). Again, a missed opportunity in design. I think the form AND function leave a lot to be desired. Like I mentioned, there are some things that they did well and I'm not trying to gang up on the place, but certainly it could have been so much more...with just a little bit of additional effort. Just a difference of opinon, which we're all entitled to.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7054  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2012, 9:57 PM
gymratmanaz gymratmanaz is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,288
Talked to one of the contractors. The crane will jump soon but no set date. They will add 14 stories, making a total of 25. There will be balconies on the south side and possibly the west.

Awning structure is framed for Silk. Looks like a cool floorplan inside. Love that a street side patio is in.

Hotel Palomar is to open June1. Contractor said it will open before Silk, though Silk was supposed to open first.

The club attached to Lucky Strike keeps moving forward with more internal work, framing, drywalling....
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7055  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2012, 12:15 AM
Phxguy's Avatar
Phxguy Phxguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Tokyo, Japan (But recently Mesa)
Posts: 254
http://azremagazine.com/news/kimpton...el-open-june-5
Just more news on the hotel, wish we could've gotten info on the residential though.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7056  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 4:32 PM
PHXflyer PHXflyer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 45
Does anyone have anymore info on this?

"For fans of Fuego Bistro, the tiny Latin-inspired eatery in north Central Phoenix, or its more casual spinoff in the Camelback Esplanade, Fuego Tacos, owner Jeff Ward has some surprises in store -- two of them, in fact.
Ward is planning to open two additional Fuego-themed restaurants in the next two months: Fuego Cantina, at 830 East Greenway Parkway (in the former Chuy's Mesquite Broiler location), and FuegoCityScape in the CityScape building downtown.

Stay tuned for details."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7057  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 4:51 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,023
Very cool, I love Fuego Bistro.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7058  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 4:53 PM
gymratmanaz gymratmanaz is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,288
love their pork tacos!!!!!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7059  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 5:24 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Eastlake, Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 5,404
Oooooh no. That dickhead is still running restaurants?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7060  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2012, 6:02 PM
michael85225 michael85225 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 48
It's been years since I last posted on here but I thought I'd share these pictures. A quick search in Google and these popped up. Looks like a rendering of the hotel/residential building. I don't know how recent these are but both Expedia and Orbitz have these photos on their website.


http://www.orbitz.com/hotel/United_S...Hotel.h906061/

Last edited by michael85225; Apr 23, 2012 at 8:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
   
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Southwest
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:16 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.