Toronto Drivers: Don't force us onto public transit with parking charges

[miketoronto]

Toronto's mayor has decided that a special tax might be put on downtown parking spots to increase revenue for cash strapped Toronto. Fine you say. But then the mayor goes on to say the parking charge will be to increase public transit use. Now I am pro transit, and I even have a problem with his comment.

But anyway its interesting to see the very vocal outcry over his comment. I woke up this morning and turned on the news and there was a whole discussion about this matter. They had a newspaper writer from Toronto on the news and he was saying he continue to drive downtown and never take public transit because it sucks.
He said that instead of forcing people to take public transit, the city should improve public transit so that people choose it naturally instead of being forced into it with parking charges. He also said roads need to be improved so that car drivers have better access to downtown.

But anyway its very interesting to see this fight and does bring up a good point.

Should we be charging higher rates just to force people onto transit service that takes double the time to get them downtown then if they drove?

Do you think thats unfair?

Do you think the guys right, that if you just improve transit and actually make it easy to use and fast, then there is no need for forcing people with parking charges?

Calgary I know is famous for charging higher parking rates just to force people onto transit. Do you agree with that?

Anyway we will have to see how the debate unfolds. This one reporter will have a full page article tommorow in the paper on why driving is better.
He said with all the new cleaner cars coming out, the excuse that you need to take transit to help the enviroment will be gone soon, because cars will be so clean they won't pollute.

I find it weird the city always has to attack downtown when it comes to things like parking. Over 70% of commuters to downtown already take transit.
Target other areas with a parking charge.

[Lee_Haber8]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Toronto's mayor has decided that a special tax might be put on downtown parking spots to increase revenue for cash strapped Toronto. Fine you say. But then the mayor goes on to say the parking charge will be to increase public transit use. Now I am pro transit, and I even have a problem with his comment.

But anyway its interesting to see the very vocal outcry over his comment. I woke up this morning and turned on the news and there was a whole discussion about this matter. They had a newspaper writer from Toronto on the news and he was saying he continue to drive downtown and never take public transit because it sucks.
He said that instead of forcing people to take public transit, the city should improve public transit so that people choose it naturally instead of being forced into it with parking charges. He also said roads need to be improved so that car drivers have better access to downtown.

But anyway its very interesting to see this fight and does bring up a good point.

Should we be charging higher rates just to force people onto transit service that takes double the time to get them downtown then if they drove?

Do you think thats unfair?

Do you think the guys right, that if you just improve transit and actually make it easy to use and fast, then there is no need for forcing people with parking charges?

Calgary I know is famous for charging higher parking rates just to force people onto transit. Do you agree with that?

Anyway we will have to see how the debate unfolds. This one reporter will have a full page article tommorow in the paper on why driving is better.
He said with all the new cleaner cars coming out, the excuse that you need to take transit to help the enviroment will be gone soon, because cars will be so clean they won't pollute.

I find it weird the city always has to attack downtown when it comes to things like parking. Over 70% of commuters to downtown already take transit.
Target other areas with a parking charge.

Is parking being charged at market rates in Toronto? Are there minimum parking requirements or incentives for free parking provided by the city? I don't know, but if they exist in Toronto they should probably get rid of existing ways driving is subsidized.

[Robert Pence]

I think it would make sense to put a tax or surcharge on parking revenues if the proceeds were invested to improve the frequency and quality of transit service.

[duper]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Calgary I know is famous for charging higher parking rates just to force people onto transit.

Indeed. I visit Calgary every year to see their famous parking lots.


Where the money goes is somewhat irrelevant. The fact is that it goes into City revenues to direct wherever there is a need, and there clearly is a need or transit improvements. This seems like a pretty good idea, since it eliminates some of the incentive to drive and also ensures that those who commute to Toronto but don't pay a PENNY for their use of the highways and roads finally contributes.

[Cirrus]

One could just as easily say that free or cheap parking forces people to drive by making it economically advantageous to do so. But really, it’s not an issue of forcing people to do anything. It’s an issue of NOT SUBSIDIZING car use with free/cheap parking.

Toronto's mayor just put his foot in his mouth. The policy is fine.

[Justin10000]

Miller did put his foot in his mouth. The parking charge is a great idea. If you want to park in congested area(Not just downtown, you're gonna to pay for it.
Not that it is cheap anyways. It is still pretty expensive to park downtown, not including the time wasted to find a spot.
One important fact that I noticed was missing: On the weekends, all the TTC subway lots are free. People usually park, and take transit downtown anyways. And the cost of parking at the lots during the week is nominal.

I am all for the charge. While it will not do anything to improve congestion, or ridership numbers, it will generate needed revenue.

[J. Will]

It seems the issue here is being missed.

What is proposed is a new parking surcharge for downtown and other areas with very strong transit service.

[duper]

Originally Posted by J. Will

What is proposed is a new parking surcharge for downtown and other areas with very strong transit service.

Factual, but not the issue. The issue is should drivers have to pay to make sure that Toronto stays liveable and can become a better transit city.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by duper

Factual, but not the issue. The issue is should drivers have to pay to make sure that Toronto stays liveable and can become a better transit city.

It's precisely the issue. This has nothing to do with what the lots can charge. This is whether there should be an additional surcharge (tax).

[LordMandeep]

MOst people are idiots, i heard some people get mad about there being no more front door parking at the ACC anymore. Cry me a river. There is a new office tower one lot and a mega sucessfull 400 million dollar office/condo entertainment complex on the other, both under construction.

[jeicow]

Originally Posted by LordMandeep

MOst people are idiots, i heard some people get mad about there being no more front door parking at the ACC anymore. Cry me a river. There is a new office tower one lot and a mega sucessfull 400 million dollar office/condo entertainment complex on the other, both under construction.

Won't the Maple Leaf Towers and Telus combined end up bringing more parking to the area? I remember that the Star had an article about the number of parking spots in downtown TO (both private/public/commercial) and if I remember correctly, the number has increased significantly since 1990. Most are in private developments like condos. I know two people downtown who end up renting up their spots in their buldings (one in HVE @ Cityplace, the other in some building near Bloor and Yonge) for about $300/month under the table. I wouldn't be surprised if a company comes along that matches unused condo spots with drivers, if there already isn't one. I think that even if this parking charge does come into effect, it won't have that great of an effect on cutting down the number of drives into downtown. GO Trains (at least on Lakeshoe West) seem to be at crush load for most of the rush hour, the subway is generally too slow for 905ers and rush hour loads are already near capactiy and since there is no committment that the money will go to actually improving transit, not just to the city's budget, it's a scam to the max. The city should raise current costs to market costs because it's just smarter to do that instead of having subsidized costs in most cases.

[LordMandeep]

yes i was at the yonge/bloor station last week at 9:30 and i was reminded of the indian trian station, but much cleaner of course...

[Bob_01]

Toronto public transportation is terrible. If parking wasn't hard to find in downtown, I'd buy a car and drive to downtown.

However taxing for parking in congested areas is promising but this must translate to improved public transportation. Just look at Europe, heck even Delhi's Metro is a good benchmark for the TTC.

Even now TTC is a money waster. They select Canadian firms that charge a hell lot more than non-European counterparts. Also TTC is over-staffed and should opt for a smart card or 'rechargeable' metro pass like those in Hong Kong. That would cut costs significantly by cutting down the flabby workforce. If we don't see cost-cutting then all that tax money will be wasted. And I have a feeling we're going to see some backward experimental Bombardier design vs. a proven European design that is cheaper.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by duper

Indeed. I visit Calgary every year to see their famous parking lots.

Mike didn't quite get it right. Calgary's City Council purposely limits the amount of new parking space that can be built with every new development. As a result, the amount of downtown parking relative to the number of people who work downtown is very low, increasing the cost of parking due to market forces. This pushes more downtown commuters onto the C-Train, resulting in very high ridership on the C-Train.

[SFUVancouver]

The backward experimental Bombardier design Bob_01 referred to is the linear induction motor system of SkyTrain and the Scarborough RT line. That technology and the driving force behind its implementation was actually an Ontario crown corporation known as Urban Transportation Development Corporation (UTDC). The Scarborough RT line was initially going to be some form of high-speed streetcar but the provincial government intervened most of the way through construction and decided to use their new linear induction motor technology. They ripped up the new street car tracks, built a grade separated guideway and built the rolling stock. UTDC also sold a trainset to Vancouver that was operational for the 1986 'Expo86' World's Fair.

Wikipedia has a good history of the Scarborough RT project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarborough_RT

After the debacle of cost overruns, poor cold weather performance, a fight with the transit union to have the automated cars driven by people, and the generally poor reception of the train set by the public, the provincial government sold the UTDC assets to Bombardier which has gone on to build rapid transit lines in Vancouver, New York, and Kuala Lampur to the tune of several billion dollars worth contracts.

Back to the topic of this thread; I have no problem with the city charging a transit assessment on parking lots. TransLink in Vancouver is doing the same thing. The suburban malls are furious but the urban businesses are largely keeping quiet since they know how much of the business comes from transit riders. After the prolonged transit strike in 2001 I seem to remember reading that Pacific Centre, the most profitable mall in BC lost 40% of its business during the strike.

I think the mayor could have put a better spin on the tax but the bottom line is that cities have very few means of raising revenue and this time around the hammer is falling on parking lots.

[hk_ayu]

Blocking all the roads
then driving will never be faster than public transit

Less air pollution, less global warming