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Old Posted: Dec 17, 2006, 10:03 PM
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Rail revival dream won’t die - langley/surrey

It appears technically possible to run a rapid transit rail service from Surrey’s Scott Road SkyTrain Station all the way to downtown Langley.

But it would be tricky and expensive.

Those are the key findings of consultants hired by TransLink to take a first look at the feasibility of reopening passenger rail service on the old electric interurban rail route, which linked Vancouver to Chilliwack until it was shut down in the 1950s.

Rough cost estimates range from $350 million for a diesel-powered heavy rail system with nine stations to $700 million for an electric light rail system that would be more frequent and allow 16 stations along the 27-kilometre route.

The study by DRL Solutions Inc. shows possible station locations and assumed frequent service – not the peak-only service offered by the West Coast Express from Vancouver to Mission.

The concept so far hasn’t been at the top of TransLink’s vision to serve projected growth in Surrey and Langley.

“It wouldn’t stand out as our first choice,” said Graeme Masterton, TransLink’s program manager of transit planning.

Instead, bus rapid transit, eventually replaced by light rail lines, are eyed for King George Highway and 104 Avenue, and potentially the Fraser Highway and Highway 1.

But reviving the historic interurban route has captivated rail fans and gained momentum.

Surrey city council voted this fall to hire its own project manager to explore a community rail option on the route. A volunteer group is restoring old interurban cars in hopes of launching a heritage run for tourists.

And even TransLink has said all ideas are on the table as it works with locals to draw up a new South of Fraser area plan to chart the future of transit as the sub-region grows from 600,000 now to one million by 2031.

“We said, ‘Okay, let’s have a look’,” said TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie. “What would it take to make it happen?”

A lot, it turns out.

The consultants tabled a long list of challenges:

- Railway operators may oppose the passenger rail idea, fearing it will hinder freight runs. The study assumes local Surrey freight trains would run at night only and trains that don’t stop locally will be rerouted via another line.

- The route through Surrey is flanked by two lines of B.C. Hydro transmission poles, which would be costly and complex to move if the line must be double-tracked.

- Heavy and growing congestion on the segment of the CPR line that would be used from Cloverdale to Langley.

- Tightened regulations are expected to run passenger service on a route shared with freight trains.

Advocates of the interurban route are undeterred.

“We did not see anything that was a show stopper,” said former Surrey and Langley Township planner Terry Lyster, who is a member of VALTAC (Valley Transportation Advisory Committee).

“Those are large numbers,” he said of the cost estimates. “But the numbers to build new crossings of the Fraser River are much larger.”

He noted the per kilometre costs are less than a quarter of construction costs for TransLink’s new $1.9-billion Canada Line or $1-billion proposed Evergreen Line.

Getting a fair shake in transit spending is one of the motives at play – some see TransLink sucking plenty of money out of Surrey and Langley residents and investing most of it in deluxe transit systems north of the river.

“They’ve run out of money and they’ve done nothing for the South of the Fraser area,” charged Peter Holt, executive director of the Surrey Board of Trade.

He and others suspect the transportation authority has engineered the study to inflate the costs and squash the interurban rail route aspirations.

Lyster also believes a community passenger rail service along the line can be started at less cost than projected.

They argue double tracking the existing Southern Railway of B.C. line through Surrey isn’t necessary as long as there are lots of stations with sidings where passenger trains would allow freight trains to pass.

And some say it could be done even more cheaply just as far as Cloverdale, truncating the more complex leg to Langley.

“It can technically be done,” said Allen Aubert, one of Surrey’s two representatives on TransLink’s South of Fraser planning committee. “I think it’s fairly positive.”

He sees a community railway powered by hydrogen fuel cells that could be a demonstration project in time for the 2010 Olympics, drawing support from the government’s Hydrogen Highway initiative.


“It could be quite unique and completely pollution free,” said Aubert.

One hydrogen fuel station already exists. It’s run by B.C. Hydro’s Powertech Labs in Surrey and is located on 88 Avenue, precisely where that road intersects the old interurban line.

TransLink and local rail advocates agree on at least one thing: people mainly need to move between neighbourhoods in Surrey and Langley, not commute to downtown Vancouver.

That’s backed up by TransLink research that shows more than 85 per cent of trips by residents south of the Fraser stay within the region.

Twice as many people commute from Surrey to Langley or vice-versa than go to downtown Vancouver.

Those stats persuaded TransLink that what’s needed isn’t a peak-hours only commuter service geared solely to get Surrey and Langley residents to the SkyTrain and on to Vancouver.

TransLink officials promise more work to explore the potential of the interurban route. The next step, to happen by the end of 2007, is to estimate potential ridership and revenue – key elements for determining the viability of a service.

Because higher density development would surely follow a light rail line, TransLink will also be looking to Surrey council for guidance.

Opposition from city hall would likely sink the route, officials hint, while strong support could catapult it into serious contention.

THE FOUR OPTIONS:

Heavy Rail – Diesel

Push-Pull

- $363 million.

- Same as West Coast Express, with engines at each end of the train.

- 30-minute peak service. Hourly service off-peak.

- 40-minute run time, including stops.

- Nine stations.

- Peak hourly passenger capacity: 1,608.

Heavy Rail – Diesel Multiple Units:

- $356 million.

- ‘Budd’ cars, each self-propelled by diesel.

- 30-minute peak service. Hourly service off-peak.

- 40-minute run time, including stops.

- Nine stations.

- Peak hourly passenger capacity: 1,504.

- Project may be reliant on only a single supplier of cars.

Light Rail – Diesel Multiple Units:

- $592 million.

- Each articulated car self-propelled by diesel. Similar to Ottawa’s O-Train.

- 15-minute service.

- 42-minute run time, including stops.

- 16 stations.

- Peak hourly passenger capacity: 3,240.

- Top speed isn’t as fast as heavy rail, but light rail cars accelerate and brake much faster, cutting travel time and allowing more station stops.

Light Rail – Electric Multiple Units:

- $697 million.

- Each car with own electric power. Similar to light rail lines in Calgary, Portland.

- 15-minute service at all times.

- 42-minute run time, including stops.

- Nine stations.

- Peak hourly passenger capacity: 2,048.

- Electric option would be greenest solution.

Some costs like acquiring property, engineering and environmental studies aren’t included. But there is an extra 30 per cent for contingency.

Stations

The route runs initially southwest from the Scott Road SkyTrain station to the Scott Road corridor, then angles southeast to Cloverdale and east to Langley.

The following station sites were tentatively identified:

- Terminus at Scott Road SkyTrain station. Passenger rail trains to arrive at same level as SkyTrain.

- Three stations (only one if heavy rail is chosen) near 120 Street between 100 Avenue and 88 Avenue.

- Stations at 128 Street and 84 Avenue, 132 Street near 79th (light rail only), King George Highway and 72 Avenue, 144 Street at 68 Avenue (light rail only) and 152 Street at 65 Avenue.

- Two stations in Cloverdale near Highway 10, at 168 Street and 176 Street.

-In Langley, two to five stations on two different possible routes, depending if heavy or light rail is chosen. The light rail option shows five stations through the downtown core, ending at Kwantlen University College. The heavy rail route runs further north, closer to Langley Bypass and the Willowbrook Mall.

http://www.surreyleader.com/portals-...d=794897&more=



A study by DRL Solutions Inc. finds a rapid transit rail service from North Surrey to Langley City is possible, a service which hasn’t been provided since an electric interurban route (above) which ran from Vancouver to Chilliwack was discontinued in the 1950s.
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  #2  
Old Posted: Dec 17, 2006, 10:48 PM
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i don't think the cost is inflated. for a 27-km line, costs sound just about right.

awesome news anyhow.
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Old Posted: Dec 18, 2006, 12:47 AM
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really wish this would get built. we need more rail in the region. hopefully they choose bombardier talent dmu or emu trainsets, they're probably the best suited for this.

www.fahrgaeste.de/img/bahn/020515_bombardier.jpg



btw this train comes in 2,3, and 4 car configuration which can be coupled to form longer trains and can be diesel, diesel-electric or fully electric.

Last edited by eduardo88; Dec 18, 2006 at 1:19 AM.
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Old Posted: Dec 18, 2006, 2:06 AM
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Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
- Railway operators may oppose the passenger rail idea, fearing it will hinder freight runs. The study assumes local Surrey freight trains would run at night only and trains that don’t stop locally will be rerouted via another line.
Not "may oppose" WILL OPPOSE and the sure as hell won't reroute traffic for the benefit of paxrail.

Shared track is an opperational disaster, and freight always takes priority over paxrail. For no other reason than modern freight trains physically can't fit on the sidings when another train needs the same track. That is combined with rail traffic control problems. Especially when running in both directions on the same track.

You either have to take the track by eminent domain or build new light-rail track. Both would be costly and controversial.
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Old Posted: Dec 18, 2006, 2:11 AM
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or just create parking spots for the PAXrail to stop and pull over into stations whenever freight rail is coming by.
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Old Posted: Dec 18, 2006, 2:19 AM
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i don't know much about this corridor, but is there space to build a new set of tracks with overhead electrical wires next to the existing tracks? because that's probably the only way any rail line through that corridor will get through.
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Old Posted: Dec 18, 2006, 2:24 AM
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or just create parking spots for the PAXrail to stop and pull over into stations whenever freight rail is coming by.
That is what is already being done all across north america, and it just destroys the schedule, VIA Rail can be delayed for hours when they are ordered to the sidings.

If a commuter line isn’t reliable, people won’t use it.

Three long freight trains within a few miles of each other could leave the commuters in the sidings for hours.
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Old Posted: Dec 18, 2006, 5:04 AM
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I know this doesn't have anything to do with light rail. But, is there any chance of skytrain being extended along Fraser Highway from King George station to Langley City any time soon? I heard it will eventually be done since it will greatly improve skytrain service for people in the eastern fraser valley. That combined with a nice extensive light rail system as described above is much needed and would greatly improve transit service to where it should already be. Think about the numbers. 600,000 people live south of the fraser yet there is no light rail service or any B-line bus route. That is pure neglagence on the part of translink.
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Old Posted: Dec 19, 2006, 12:33 AM
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I know this doesn't have anything to do with light rail. But, is there any chance of skytrain being extended along Fraser Highway from King George station to Langley City any time soon? I heard it will eventually be done since it will greatly improve skytrain service for people in the eastern fraser valley. That combined with a nice extensive light rail system as described above is much needed and would greatly improve transit service to where it should already be. Think about the numbers. 600,000 people live south of the fraser yet there is no light rail service or any B-line bus route. That is pure neglagence on the part of translink.
There is not enough demand in most SoF areas for translink to run higher order services (due to poor city planning), so why would they bother, if they're just going to loose lots of money?

Anyways, SkyTrain to Langley would be beyond the useful range for someone commuting from end to end, and quite frankly it's capacity overkill for a long time to come. This proposed system, which decent connections to bus services at each station makes far more sense. Maybe it could eventually (long term) be extended downtown, it could act both as a Surrey-Vancouver express service with limited stops, and provide extra capacity once the expo line is overburdened.


BTW, Surrey has 4 Skytrain stations.
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Old Posted: Dec 19, 2006, 6:33 AM
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Originally Posted by eduardo88 View Post
really wish this would get built. we need more rail in the region. hopefully they choose bombardier talent dmu or emu trainsets, they're probably the best suited for this.

www.fahrgaeste.de/img/bahn/020515_bombardier.jpg



btw this train comes in 2,3, and 4 car configuration which can be coupled to form longer trains and can be diesel, diesel-electric or fully electric.
This is excellent. Finally some initiative. It sounds like the route will be run through the rail corridor going SE to Newton and then E to Cloverdale and beyond. They should definitely consider extending the route all the way to Abbotsford, either somehow tunneling a section so that the rail route can run through Fraser Hwy (through Aldergrove) to Abbotsford; or they can continue to follow through the railway track to Fort Langley area.

In terms of the train type, I think this one will suit the needs well (It should be commuter rail type). It doesn't have to be this many cars, but I think around 4-6 cars can be sufficient, and have overhead wires for electrical supply, and run at 15-20 min peak intervals. To be efficent, the ROW needs to be double tracked and electrified. Hopefully, we can also use this method for the current WCE to replace the double-decker train cars.



Sorry the pic is too big, i'm not too sure how to resize that.

Last edited by The_Henry_Man; Dec 19, 2006 at 8:09 AM.
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Old Posted: Dec 19, 2006, 6:37 AM
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the thing that makes me shake my head is a rail service existed there until the 1950's!

can you imagine what that side of the fraser would be like had that rail service never been scrapped
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Old Posted: Dec 19, 2006, 6:17 PM
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Rail service in the 50s was a lot different than today. People had more time back then and were more willing to use trains... they didn't have a car!

Back in the day, ONE interurban train was scheduled per day to go to Chilliwack.

Today, that would NEVER fly. They certainly didn't run every 15 minutes.
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2006, 6:50 AM
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All aboard for commuter rail



Some local residents are pushing for commuter rail from Chilliwack to Vancouver, but the likelihood of getting such a thing is not in their favour.

When Lori Bowman and her partner moved from Langley to Chilliwack in June, they were pumped about the lower cost of living. The couple is close to retirement and were in the market for their dream home. Chilliwack was in their price range.

It was perfect, said Bowman, except for the lack of commuter options.

“We would love to be able to work and live in the same community as some groups are suggesting people try to do,” she said. “But this is not always possible.

“I was so disappointed to find out that there is absolutely no transportation options available for people living in Chilliwack.”

Bowman’s partner works in downtown Vancouver at an engineering firm. It’s not safe for him to commute long distances because of medical conditions. And to relocate his job, she said, would seriously deflate his income.

So every morning, Bowman drives him to Mission to catch the West Coast Express. They get up at 4 a.m., leave at 4:30 and arrive in Mission at 5:10. The train leaves the station at 5:27 and Bowman’s boyfriend arrives downtown at 6:40.

He starts work at 7 a.m.

“There is such a steady stream of cars going in the same direction at the same time,” she said. “I strongly believe that there would be enough riders to warrant this service, even if for only two trains a day.

“I feel very strongly that it really should be investigated further.”

Cost, ridership and location, however, are holding such a project back.

Chilliwack-Kent MLA Barry Penner – B.C.’s environment minister – has been investigating the idea since elected in ‘96. He’s talked to both provincial and federal transportation ministers about the feasibility of additional transportation options for the Chilliwack area. And he’s learned that there are a number of obstacles standing in the way.

The capital costs of refurbishing existing rail lines – like the ones operated by the old Interurban in the early to mid 1900s – or building new lines and acquiring land for those lines would likely be in the billions, said Penner.

“I am interested in finding additional transportation options, but I also know that there are issues around the population density in order to pay for such a project,” he said. “A lot of [commuter rails] that have already been set up, like the one in London, have much greater population densities than we do.”

Still, some residents are not satisfied.

Rollie Keith, past provincial NDP candidate and long-time commuter rail advocate, believes that if there is a will, there is a way.

“I support the twinning of the Port Mann Bridge, but the solution is not to just build more roads and bridges, we need to get out of our cars. We need alternatives,” he said.

“Of course there’s going to be a cost, but we need to invest in the future. We’ve got to be able to get around.”

Bowman has sent a number of letters to government officials and is now looking for community support. She is starting a petition, and people can contact her via email at www.chilliwack_commuter_rail@hotmail.com

http://www.theprogress.com/portals-c...d=796406&more=



Lori Bowman says a commuter rail system in Chilliwack with service to Vancouver would be a great idea. JENNA HAUCK/ PROGRESS
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2006, 6:51 AM
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Rail service in the 50s was a lot different than today. People had more time back then and were more willing to use trains... they didn't have a car!

Back in the day, ONE interurban train was scheduled per day to go to Chilliwack.

Today, that would NEVER fly. They certainly didn't run every 15 minutes.
well yah - but the line was in place and it would have been continually updated one thinks

of course hindsight is always 20/20
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2006, 10:43 PM
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There is not enough demand in most SoF areas for translink to run higher order services (due to poor city planning), so why would they bother, if they're just going to loose lots of money?

Anyways, SkyTrain to Langley would be beyond the useful range for someone commuting from end to end, and quite frankly it's capacity overkill for a long time to come. This proposed system, which decent connections to bus services at each station makes far more sense. Maybe it could eventually (long term) be extended downtown, it could act both as a Surrey-Vancouver express service with limited stops, and provide extra capacity once the expo line is overburdened.


BTW, Surrey has 4 Skytrain stations.
I know the demand isn't there yet. But I could see the line being extended in 15-20 years. In fact, with the widening of Fraser Highway near Route 15, there are large concrete boxes spaced out which according to a contractor I worked with, stated were for future skytrain pillars.

I agree, what is needed now, in a bad way is turning the 502 into a B-line bus route. This will help translink determine future ridership levels and when the time is right to extend skytrain to Langley. A skytrain to Langley would open up service all the way to Abbotsford and allow for Translink to move into that city which badly needs much improved bus service. Abbotsford already has a number of Condos and if we are to encourage high density living throughout the Valley which is badly needed,this along with a rail line to Chilliwack would make this happen. If not, then people in the Valley which give money to Translink will continue to get frustrated and may even soon demand to pull out from an agency which continues to ignore the part of the region.

I also believe Whalley will successfully develope many, many highrises, espessially office, since Vancouver has and is largely ignoring this demand. Surrey, being pretty much in the centre of the region stands to benefit the most from office demand considering their low tax rates and willingness to bend over for developers. This will increase demand for skytrain to Langley, as many of the workers will undoubtetly be living farther and farther out in the suberbs. It would also be smart to build the line sooner, rather than later since the cost of such a line will only increase as time goes on.

BTW, I know Surrey has 4 stations since I live in view of King George and used to rely on it for service to work. Without Skytrain, and the 97 B-line, I would not have been able to get from Whalley, to Port Moody in one hour. I credit skytrain (the only thing translink has going for it) in allowing this to happen. I think many people in Langley and beyond would open up their arms to this wonderful service. Much more so than a light rail line which, don't get me wrong, I also do support. I just prefer the fastest of the bunch.

This has been my lack of transit in the Valley rant.
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Old Posted: Dec 20, 2006, 11:23 PM
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I also believe Whalley will successfully develope many, many highrises, espessially office, since Vancouver has and is largely ignoring this demand. Surrey, being pretty much in the centre of the region stands to benefit the most from office demand considering their low tax rates and willingness to bend over for developers. This will increase demand for skytrain to Langley, as many of the workers will undoubtetly be living farther and farther out in the suberbs. It would also be smart to build the line sooner, rather than later since the cost of such a line will only increase as time goes on.
I agree that a Skytrain extension to Langley would be mainly aimed at serving the burgeoning Surrey City Centre (i.e. a regional town centre with its own radial rapid transit system serving it) - with the added benefit of taking riders all the way to Downtown Vancouver. However, the talk in the papers, etc. is that the systems feeding the regional town centres will be LRT, not Skytrain, with Skytrain providing inter-city service. Surrey is planning for an at-grade LRT, there's the Evergreen Line, and with its single track terminus, I can't see the Canada Line extended any time soon (whereas I could see an LRT from the terminus across and down the Railway Ave ROW to Steveston).
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Old Posted: Dec 21, 2006, 11:00 PM
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I agree OD. Skytrain could be extended easily to 152nd St. Question is would it be down 100th Ave, 96th, or Fraser Hwy (~90th)?

If you take a look at google maps, you see a LOT of infill that would need to happen before skytrain happened (family lives in Cloverdale, and I used to live in Whalley). This is especially so between Surrey and Langley. Between 168th and 184th, there is nothing.

However, given the lower capital to built LRT (especially through areas that aren't as built up and have wider streets) I can totally see it happening.
Skytrain would really have to go either down 104th or King George Hwy to hit population centres.

Both of those scenarios have their own set of difficulties. The skytrain station at King George should never have been pointed down the Fraser Highway at the mouth of a massive park.
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Old Posted: Dec 22, 2006, 2:54 AM
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^^I think the Expo Line can still theoretically shift NE immediately after King George Station (through some green space gap according to Google Map), then turn east on 100th Ave, and finally n get to Guildford Mall by turning left to 152nd St. (Or somehow then can also extend the line to Fleetwood area as well?)
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Old Posted: Dec 22, 2006, 5:33 PM
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An extension down 104Ave is an interesting idea and could easily be done since there is nothing but grass where the transfer poit would be. However I think it is Surrey's intention to run LRT down that street all the way to Guilford. The same goes for King George. In fact I believe the plan is for an LRT from Guilford down 104 Ave through Surrey Central and down King George to possibly Newton Centre. So I wouldn't bet on skytrain down these two roads.
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Old Posted: Dec 22, 2006, 6:16 PM
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Which sound a LOT more reasonable than skytrain, to tell you the truth.
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