Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[N830MH]

Ok, Guys. Let me ask you something. When they will next the light rail service extension? Maybe extended service to William Gateway Airport or Loop 101 to University of Phoenix Stadium or extended service on Camelback Rd to 44th St and final, maybe extended service from PV Mall to CityNorth in Desert Ridge.

Let's the speculation begin.

[HooverDam]

I just got a call from Councilman Valenzuela's office regarding the West Valley LRT extension along the I-10. I emailed the Mayor, Valenzuela and Nowatkowski my article about why Thomas Rd through Maryvale would be the preferable alternative route. Apparently at a recent meeting Councilman Valenzuela was the NO vote about the I-10 alignment and is pushing for other alternative to be looked into- hooray!

However...his Aide told me the ball is basically too far down the road at this point and its going to likely happen this way. So I encouraged them to keep an eye on the NE extension up the SR-51 to PV Mall area. Obviously if you look at the Maps Metro wants to shove it down the SR 51 and make it solely a commuter train, not using it for redevelopment or to connect multiple neighborhoods. She was interested in that idea and seemed to respond positively to the idea of a 7th St alignment that connects North Central PHX, Sunnyslope, Moon Valley and then over to PV Mall.

Another thing to also keep in mind about a North 7th Street alignment is that its likely our only hope for ever making 7th St South of Camelback into a walkable, urban area. The people in Sunnyslope and Moon Valley feel like they need the Suicide Lanes on 7th St to get in/out of Downtown. If they were given an alternative (i.e. LRT) they likely would have less of a leg to stand on about demanding the Suicide lanes as a commuting option.

[N830MH]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/s...ight-rail.html

Valley Metro's first 20-mile rail line serves Mesa, Tempe and Phoenix and extensions are planned over the next few years, but Scottsdale has made no move to get on board.

"I don't see light rail bopping up Scottsdale Road," said Rick Kidder, chief executive of the Scottsdale Area Chamber of Commerce. "Right now, nobody is talking about it and there is no money for it."

The light rail is not going losing the money. They're so good! I don't see any problem at all. Scottsdale Council will considered Light Rail service extension on Scottsdale Rd or Loop 101. They have trusted them. There is nothing wrong about Metro Light Rail.

Let's the speculation begin.

[Vicelord John]

7th street is the thruway. Accept it because it is never going to change.

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by N830MH

http://www.azcentral.com/community/s...ight-rail.html



The light rail is not going losing the money. They're so good! I don't see any problem at all. Scottsdale Council will considered Light Rail service extension on Scottsdale Rd or Loop 101. They have trusted them. There is nothing wrong about Metro Light Rail.

Let's the speculation begin.

The route that Ron McCullagh gives doesn't sound very logical. I like the image of the train moving through Papago Park, possibly bringing more people there. But most of the areas the light rail would pass through are not very dense. Such a route would be better served by commuter rail or even BRT. Light rail is not very practical in areas of low density and over such long distances.
I'd rather see light rail go up Scottsdale Road to Old Town and Fashion Square, but I think that is one of those cases where pride and stubbornness wins over creating a better city.

[Vicelord John]

Originally Posted by N830MH

http://www.azcentral.com/community/s...ight-rail.html



The light rail is not going losing the money. They're so good! I don't see any problem at all. Scottsdale Council will considered Light Rail service extension on Scottsdale Rd or Loop 101. They have trusted them. There is nothing wrong about Metro Light Rail.

Let's the speculation begin.

Dude I'm sorry but I can't make sense of anything you wrote.

[nickw252]

It's just more of Scottsdale thinking they're better off alone rather than working with the rest of the valley. A route up Rural/Scottsdale ending at the Airpark would have high ridership but the council is more more concerned with keeping the faux "old town" feel.

[reguru]

Originally Posted by nickw252

It's just more of Scottsdale thinking they're better off alone rather than working with the rest of the valley. A route up Rural/Scottsdale ending at the Airpark would have high ridership but the council is more more concerned with keeping the faux "old town" feel.

I'm thinking Scottsdale will wait and see what the Tempe streetcar does for Tempe and may be thinking they will want to move ahead with something like that. However, the new developments along Mill may take a good chunk of the nightlife in Scottsdale away. I believe most of their patrons will start moving to Tempe. There is so much more going on. The college atmosphere, it's walkability and tree lined sidewalks along with interesting stores and people create an atmosphere DT Scottsdale does not have. Too spread out and too much pavement in Scottsdale, plus very uninteresting.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by reguru

I'm thinking Scottsdale will wait and see what the Tempe streetcar does for Tempe and may be thinking they will want to move ahead with something like that. However, the new developments along Mill may take a good chunk of the nightlife in Scottsdale away. I believe most of their patrons will start moving to Tempe. There is so much more going on. The college atmosphere, it's walkability and tree lined sidewalks along with interesting stores and people create an atmosphere DT Scottsdale does not have. Too spread out and too much pavement in Scottsdale, plus very uninteresting.

The problem is that the Tempe Streetcar, which is one transit project I don't necessarily support, is a sort of consolation prize that Tempe settled for after studies showed insufficient ridership potential & ROI to justify light rail on Rural. Of course, if the study had been scoped to include Scottsdale and Chandler, the numbers probably would have been more favorable for a north-south LRT line equallly long as the current east-west one. In other words, Scottsdale's rail resistance has led to Tempe settling for second best in its own transit choices. One city's go-it-alone stubbornness continues to hurt the entire metro area.

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by reguru

I'm thinking Scottsdale will wait and see what the Tempe streetcar does for Tempe and may be thinking they will want to move ahead with something like that. However, the new developments along Mill may take a good chunk of the nightlife in Scottsdale away. I believe most of their patrons will start moving to Tempe. There is so much more going on. The college atmosphere, it's walkability and tree lined sidewalks along with interesting stores and people create an atmosphere DT Scottsdale does not have. Too spread out and too much pavement in Scottsdale, plus very uninteresting.

This argument has been said before, but I really doubt the businesses of Scottsdale would move to Tempe. They are there because they like the status that it brings. Honestly, I prefer it that way. I'd like for Mill Avenue to get back a little of the local feel it used to have, with mom and pop shops filling in the vacant spaces, while Scottsdale keeping the nightclubs and galleries. But that is just my own personal opinion as someone who lives close to Mill.

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

The problem is that the Tempe Streetcar, which is one transit project I don't necessarily support, is a sort of consolation prize that Tempe settled for after studies showed insufficient ridership potential & ROI to justify light rail on Rural. Of course, if the study had been scoped to include Scottsdale and Chandler, the numbers probably would have been more favorable for a north-south LRT line equallly long as the current east-west one. In other words, Scottsdale's rail resistance has led to Tempe settling for second best in its own transit choices. One city's go-it-alone stubbornness continues to hurt the entire metro area.

I completely agree, the street car is definitely a second class mass transit system. A light rail line on Rural would have been a great choice, linking the second core of Tempe (library, museum, and other civic amenities on rural and southern) with downtown. Yet, I am a bit excited to see the street car com in. Hopefully it lead to more density being developed on Mill south of University.

I am also a bit bothered by how officials here use the term BRT. The one in the article is not a real BRT system. I would greatly favor a true BRT system, like the ones that have been built in Latin America, going up Rural/Scottsdale. The construction would be quicker than light rail, but the buses would still have their own dedicated lane, and platforms would make boarding faster.

[nickw252]

Although not really transit related, here's more of Scottsdale thinking it's better off alone and meanwhile hurting the rest of the valley. Mayor Lane is talking out of both sides of his mouth when he says he's in favor of regional cooperation while at the same time saying:

"Regional thinking and regional cooperation is essentially important, but it's also important to make sure we maintain integrity in the position we're in," Lane said. "We have a specific community unto ourselves, and we want to maintain a certain level of control of our own destiny."

and

"I made a distinctive point that a General Plan is a very personal issue to our community," Lane said. "I would think there is a very strong feeling among most of the community that Scottsdale does not want to be Phoenix. I'm trying to put it as realistically as Possible.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/s...operation.html

[phxSUNSfan]

The streetcar in Tempe is NOT a "consolation prize" but a great asset for Mill Ave. I just got back from Europe where streetcars (called trams in most of the world) are an integral part of transit systems. If anything, the only thing that is second class about the streetcar is that it isn't a little longer. Besides, light rail on Rural has never been a Valley Metro priority. I don't even think it has been mentioned in Valley Metro's future extensions.

As for Scottsdale, they will eventually jump on rail or face an economic disadvantage as energy and gas prices continue to rise in the future. I hope Scottsdale never becomes Phoenix and remains a place without highrise development. They don't have neighborhoods like the historic districts, Arcadia, North Central, etc. and that is a good thing and an asset for Phoenix.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

The streetcar in Tempe is NOT a "consolation prize" but a great asset for Mill Ave. I just got back from Europe where streetcars (called trams in most of the world) are an integral part of transit systems. If anything, the only thing that is second class about the streetcar is that it isn't a little longer. Besides, light rail on Rural has never been a Valley Metro priority. I don't even think it has been mentioned in Valley Metro's future extensions.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the Tempe Streetcar. The Mill Avenue District is compact enough to be entirely within walking distance of the existing light rail station there, and I don't see Mill south of Gammage as having enough current destinations or opportunity for future development to justify the project. That's why I'm glad Mayor-elect Mark Mitchell is asking tough questions about the project. Light rail on Rural was actually among the options considered when the study occurred a few years ago. It was not the alternative chosen based on an analysis limited in scope to Tempe and Chandler, but I think it might have been if Scottsdale had been included in the scenario.

[phxSUNSfan]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

We'll have to agree to disagree about the Tempe Streetcar. The Mill Avenue District is compact enough to be entirely within walking distance of the existing light rail station there, and I don't see Mill south of Gammage as having enough current destinations or opportunity for future development to justify the project. That's why I'm glad Mayor-elect Mark Mitchell is asking tough questions about the project. Light rail on Rural was actually among the options considered when the study occurred a few years ago. It was not the alternative chosen based on an analysis limited in scope to Tempe and Chandler, but I think it might have been if Scottsdale had been included in the scenario.

The point of the streetcar is to connect the neighborhoods south of the university with the university, Mill, Rio Salado/Town Lake AND light rail. Streetcars make an area even more pedestrian friendly and invites more development (dense, transit-oriented development) along its route; look at what is occurring in Seattle with the S.L.U.T. (South Lake Union Trolley). I still can't find any mention of Rural as a proposed route (even a few years ago): perhaps there is a link or article you are aware of as that would be an interesting read.

[bwaynoh]

Valley Metro updated their webpage to include the South Central and Gilbert Road extensions. Good to see additional progress outside of Prop 400 plans.

http://http://www.valleymetro.org/metro_projects_planning/

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

The point of the streetcar is to connect the neighborhoods south of the university with the university, Mill, Rio Salado/Town Lake AND light rail. Streetcars make an area even more pedestrian friendly and invites more development (dense, transit-oriented development) along its route; look at what is occurring in Seattle with the S.L.U.T. (South Lake Union Trolley). I still can't find any mention of Rural as a proposed route (even a few years ago): perhaps there is a link or article you are aware of as that would be an interesting read.

This article from the EV Tribune mentions the study to determine the preferred route and mode of transport for a north-south transit line in Tempe. I'd like to find the actual study itself, but Valley Metro's website has been changed to the point that it's no longer available.

At the time the study began in 2007, light rail on Rural was being considered. That was ruled out and the options then reduced to BRT on Rural vs. modern streetcar on Mill by the time the study wrapped up in 2010. Eventually, the Mill Avenue project was chosen, and I think that choice was based more on economic development aspirations than actual passenger needs.

South of University, there are some great neighborhoods like Maple-Ash and Mitchell Park near Mill, but they're neighborhoods of single family homes. There are few apartment complexes or other higher density forms of housing along Mill between University and Southern, and there are few vacant lots available for development.

[bwaynoh]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

This article from the EV Tribune mentions the study to determine the preferred route and mode of transport for a north-south transit line in Tempe. I'd like to find the actual study itself, but Valley Metro's website has been changed to the point that it's no longer available.

At the time the study began in 2007, light rail on Rural was being considered. That was ruled out and the options then reduced to BRT on Rural vs. modern streetcar on Mill by the time the study wrapped up in 2010. Eventually, the Mill Avenue project was chosen, and I think that choice was based more on economic development aspirations than actual passenger needs.

South of University, there are some great neighborhoods like Maple-Ash and Mitchell Park near Mill, but they're neighborhoods of single family homes. There are few apartment complexes or other higher density forms of housing along Mill between University and Southern, and there are few vacant lots available for development.

Here's some info from the AA for the Tempe South extension that references LRT on Rural.

http://www.valleymetro.org/images/up...th-Factsht.pdf

http://www.valleymetro.org/images/up...tsheet-web.pdf

http://www.valleymetro.org/images/up...re_English.pdf

[phxSUNSfan]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

This article from the EV Tribune mentions the study to determine the preferred route and mode of transport for a north-south transit line in Tempe. I'd like to find the actual study itself, but Valley Metro's website has been changed to the point that it's no longer available.

At the time the study began in 2007, light rail on Rural was being considered. That was ruled out and the options then reduced to BRT on Rural vs. modern streetcar on Mill by the time the study wrapped up in 2010. Eventually, the Mill Avenue project was chosen, and I think that choice was based more on economic development aspirations than actual passenger needs.

South of University, there are some great neighborhoods like Maple-Ash and Mitchell Park near Mill, but they're neighborhoods of single family homes. There are few apartment complexes or other higher density forms of housing along Mill between University and Southern, and there are few vacant lots available for development.

There are still development possibilities south of University Dr AND if the streetcar is extended east into Mesa to reach the future cubs development (Wrigleyville West) it would be a priceless development.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by bwaynoh

Here's some info from the AA for the Tempe South extension that references LRT on Rural.

http://www.valleymetro.org/images/up...th-Factsht.pdf

http://www.valleymetro.org/images/up...tsheet-web.pdf

http://www.valleymetro.org/images/up...re_English.pdf

Thanks for tracking those down.

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

There are still development possibilities south of University Dr AND if the streetcar is extended east into Mesa to reach the future cubs development (Wrigleyville West) it would be a priceless development.

I agree with you on the second part. An east-west streetcar line along Rio Solado would connect destinations such as Tempe Center for the Arts, numerous office buildings along the parkway, Tempe Marketplace, and the new Cubs stadium. That's why I support Mark Mitchell's call to re-examine the streetcar project and consider proceeding with an east-west line before a north-south one.