Quote:
Originally Posted by mezzanine
for starters, correct me if i am wrong but you seem to think that the current vancouver system of a weekend-only, summer-only service staffed by volunteers, is on the cusp of a frequent network of streetcars going from GI to the DTES to gastown to waterfront station which will be halted if the CoV goes thru with its funding suspension.
It will take a lot more funding, more than what the CoV is currently supplying to do that. I am unclear if you think the CoV can do this on its own, or if higher levels of government are chomping at the bit to give us money for this.
|
Well not exactly.
My first post that got all this started was that I was upset the city could just turn its back on a multi million investment (the tracks they built) and maintaining a piece of our heritage (what happens to the maintenance of the 100 year old interurban cars now?). Yet, they seem to scrap together the money to fund councilors pet projects like chicken coups, wheat farms, and most recently, orchards in city parks. The city can fund sideshows and come up with the money to close down city streets for the summer, but can't contribute anything to the hard working volunteer members of the Transit Museum society. They can fund "street art", but they can't fund a historic piece of Vancouver's Sustainable Legacy.
The cost of keeping an interesting, and historical tourist attraction going pales in comparison to what they have already invested. And with a little bit extra, they could achieve more. The DHR had decent ridership with absolutely know public awareness campaign besides a sandwich board infront of OV station.
But from that simple base argument, I grew another argument on top of it.
If the city can cut the few dollars they spend on DHR, then what hope do we have that they will expand service to a full blow streetcar?
Did they say "we want to phase out the DHR and replace it with a full and sustainable transit network"?
If they can't spend a few dollars to maintain what we have, how can we hope to see them take growing the idea of the streetcar any further?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mezzanine
except we don't have to make that choice as the false creek #50 bus route is already funded, in place and mirrors the existing streeetcar route on a corridor that does not have severe capacity or travel time constraints.
......
IIRC, the #50 does service the same route as the existing streetcar route.
|
Again, I think you are grouping my 2 arguments together, then ignoring some of the facts present in one, in favor facts of the other that you can attack.
You are right, in that the current #50 does what the current DHR railroad did, but with less flash and passion. If the CURRENT railroad was ONLY a means of transportation, then yes, the #50 is a superior service; it runs every day, all day. However, the CURRENT DHR is more than just transit. It's a living museum. It's a link to our past. It's a functioning display board for sustainable transit. It's what we want to achieve.
The 1207 car was built in 1905, in New Westminster! The 1231 is 100 years old this year. The way the lower mainland is today is a direct result of the BCER. These very trains are the ancestors or our trolley buses and Skytrain network. Is that not in and of itself worth preserving and showing off to the world?
Over 100 years ago these trains provided Vancouver residents with transportation that was greener and more sustainable than what most of us use today. It's a common link between the way things were, and the way we want things to be in the future. It's a living example of how we are coming full circle. And Vision Vancouver could use that to its advantage. It can be a tool for them to motivate change and achieve their goals of the worlds greenest city.
However, if you want to look beyond what we currently have, then no, the
current #50 does not do what the
proposed (future, not current) streetcar will do. The 50 even falls short if the tracks for the existing DHR are only extended as far as Science World. Explain to me how the 50 would get you from GI to SW?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mezzanine
|
It's still additional cost. 4 transit tickets are already $10 for cash fare. And if you are going into Chinatown/Gastown, I don't know if the Aquabus makes any connection to Bus service into Gastown? You're looking at a lot of walking and/or at least 1 or even 2 transfers and 2 separate fares. Now what if one of those 4 people weren't as young and spry as most of us on this forum probably are. Riding the Aquabus can get tricky if you need a cane, walker, or wheelchair, and making transfers can be a literal pain in the ass. Contrast that to the level boarding platforms and 100% low floors that modern streetcars provide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mezzanine
And I would hazard a guess that they wouldn't, unless they find oodles of new funding fast, without a peep from the south of fraser mayors. streetcar operators would not be as interchangeable as regular bus drivers. At least trolley bus drivers which I assume need extra training can be easily switched to driving buses. even if the city funded all the infrastructure, TL would still have to fund a novel type of maintenance centre which would decrease overall operational flexibility. And this is for a service which is replicated by the bus-route rich area of central vancouver, and while TL just slashed long-promised BRT on KGH, Hwy 1 to langely and a whole host of other south of fraser improvments.
-----
I'm not against the streecar system, but again I am hearing different arguments for it: " it will increase ridership overall", "it will improve access to granville island", "it will spur development", " no one likes to ride a bus", and different justifications for building it/funding it.
If any CoV administration in the future does want to build a streetcar project without TL or higher levels of govt's help, they'll have their work cut out for them.  |
Why do all translink staff have to be able to do the same job? I don't see Skytrain attendants driving buses. And I don't see the problem with that. There is more than enough work required to hire full time tram drivers; they don't need to moonlight as bus drivers.
And driving modern trams is a pretty simple thing. Can you push buttons and use a lever and keep an eye out for obstructions on the ROW? I bet me and you could become professional tram drivers in a mater of hours. Driving a bus is like rocket science compared to driving a modern tram.
And I don't think any of us here would be in favor of the Downtown Streetcar at the direct expense of the King George B line or other suburban service. However, if it came down to ONLY Vancouver taxpayers paying a direct gift to Surrey to get their B line going, or starting their own streetcar, then I think spending local money on local issues makes the most sense.
But the issue is that there is not enough money in general for increased transit, anywhere. And I think that would be the first thing many of us would try to fix. There should be more money spent on transit, everywhere, and the Streetcar should be one of those projects, even if it is only funded directly by the CoV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mezzanine
And this was interesting: Even with the olympic line and large crowds riding it, some (most?) businesses on graville island lost money in spite of that due to more restrictive parking regulations.
the ~ 2-4 wks for the olympics is not really a fair trial to see what longer-term trends would be, but you have to watch for all these unintended side effects with the streetcar proposal. |
Ummmm. So losing parking is bad then? Then why fund transit at all if car is king? If losing parking hurts, we should build more parking lots downtown, and the mega freeways we need to get those cars to those parking lots. Obviously transit has been a waste of time....
And in no way did the Olympics temporarily affect the travel and spending habits of locals!
That was sarcasm by the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mezzanine
But a major argument proponents are making is the (superior) experience of taking a streetcar.
Fair enough, you or your guests might hate boats and not think of it as superior. Maybe it was raining that day. But that would also mean that a bus route that takes you close to granville island should be as convienient.
If the #50 doesn't suit your needs (assuming you live at woodwards) i don't see why you couldn't take a #4. It would even drop you off at 4th avenue. just about as direct to your door as it could be for transit. but no argument that a cab would be more convenient than a bus or a streetcar.
I'm not sure if that's a fair comparison.
Like I said, I'm not totally against the streetcar, but if any future council that wants to pursue this will have their work cut out for them. |
I don't get it. Are you against the streetcar because there are too many reasons to build it? Do I have to pick just one?
Prev
and all the rest!
Linear Mode
