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  #341  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2009, 2:01 AM
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i agree. isn't this similar to knocking every thing down in the vatican except for st. peters square/ basilica and replacing them with huge hotels?

i like the these tower u/c but the planners should take into account historic islamic structures in the area.
     
     
  #342  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2009, 9:08 AM
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i agree. isn't this similar to knocking every thing down in the vatican except for st. peters square/ basilica and replacing them with huge hotels?
.
That really wouldn't bug me. The Vatican museum is kind of disgraceful, really. Not architecturally, though (although it doesn't blow me away on that front either).
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  #343  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2009, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by lakegz View Post
I got this at SSC. Apparently this is the plan that has been approved recently.



Finally bringing Mecca into.......the 1950s.
That is appaling, Please Mecca, don't turn your city into a giant Las Vegas style hotel complex

Although that masterplan looks like they are planning to protect the land around the Masjid al-Haram they have already started building hotels right up against it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3252/...3d7d7896_o.jpg
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  #344  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2009, 6:55 AM
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I would be quite upset if all of the crap got build.

It is the same non-character buildings repeating itself.
     
     
  #345  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2009, 7:18 AM
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So isn't there some sort of historical preservation society that could prevent it all being built? I'm not Muslim but I still think it's insane to destroy so much precious history
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  #346  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 5:40 AM
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All those buildings closing in such a holy site for Muslims are deplorable. I am not a Muslim but the overall sense of purity of the site is lost when free market forces become the dominant dictator.
     
     
  #347  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 4:01 PM
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As a Muslim, I am enraged when I saw the proposal. I do not mind renovation work on existing structures to keep them functional, but this???
Imagine if this was in the Old City of Jerusalem (holy to three major religions which includes Islam - 2nd holiest). It would not be allowed to happen.

There is a lot of history in Mecca prior to Islam. For example the Kabba'a, the black structure itself, was built by Prophet Abraham (PBUH).

Unfortunately, it seems as if money has come before God in Mecca.

How dare them!!!
     
     
  #348  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 5:03 PM
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Originally Posted by shakman View Post
As a Muslim, I am enraged when I saw the proposal. I do not mind renovation work on existing structures to keep them functional, but this???
It seems to me that the Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām has gone through considerable renovation since it was originally completed and has had some sort of major expansion at least twice in the last 30 years as well as one siege and subsequent repair job. . . surely as the amount of Muslims in the world continues to grow - given its status as one of the fastest growing religions coupled with the possibility that it's already by many standards the largest single religion in the world - I don’t see a problem with their expansion plans. . . architecturally speaking it leaves a lot to be desired, but in all fairness it reflects the monotheistic unity that Mecca is supposed to represent. . .

. . .
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Last edited by Tom In Chicago; Mar 3, 2009 at 5:42 PM.
     
     
  #349  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 5:24 PM
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Originally Posted by shakman View Post
As a Muslim, I am enraged when I saw the proposal. I do not mind renovation work on existing structures to keep them functional, but this???
Imagine if this was in the Old City of Jerusalem (holy to three major religions which includes Islam - 2nd holiest). It would not be allowed to happen.

There is a lot of history in Mecca prior to Islam. For example the Kabba'a, the black structure itself, was built by Prophet Abraham (PBUH).

Unfortunately, it seems as if money has come before God in Mecca.

How dare them!!!
You actually believe that Abraham built the Kaaba? There is actual zero factual evidence that Abraham built the Kaaba in Arabia. I know the idea of questioning ultra-sacred, holy, and unchallengeable beliefs, because of the political sensibility of not enraging the more enrageable members of this currently volatile religion, no matter how patently ridiculous, insane and without evidence the beliefs are... is quite pervasive....but all that aside, lets get real..

Its like saying Skidmore, Owings, and Merrell built the Great Pyramids.(or did they!!!!?)

Also one thing to Tom in Chicago, the worlds fastest growing religion is Christianity in terms of sheer number. In terms of fastest growing percentage its Deism(A omniscient being does or did exist, but nothing like the man-made religions). I'm not questioning any person here, but just questioning the more crazy ideas put around.

Last edited by Starsky; Mar 3, 2009 at 5:40 PM.
     
     
  #350  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 5:34 PM
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You actual believe that Abraham built the Kaaba? Thats like Jesus built the Pyramids. I know the idea of ultra-sacred, holy, and unchallengeable belief because of political sensibility of not outraging constituents, no matter how patently ridiculous, insane and without evidence it is is quite pervasive....but all that aside, lets get real..

Its like saying Skidmore, Owings, and Merrell built the Great Pyramids.(or did they!!!!?)
Comparing Abraham building the Kaaba (not entirely unfeasable) to Jesus building the pyramids (utterly unfeasable) is more absurd than the point you're ranting about. . .

The original Kaaba itself might not have been all that spectacular of a structure to begin with. . . the current structure (not built by Abraham) is merely a cube shaped building about 40 feet high. . . so even if the claim is that Abraham built it, it wouldn't be that hard to beleive in my book. . .

cite - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabaa

. . .
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  #351  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 5:41 PM
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Also one thing to Tom in Chicago, the worlds fastest growing religion is Christianity in terms of sheer number. In terms of fastest growing percentage its Deism.
I've edited my post to reflect that Islam is /one/ of the fastest growing religions. . .
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  #352  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago View Post
Comparing Abraham building the Kaaba (not entirely unfeasable) to Jesus building the pyramids (utterly unfeasable) is more absurd than the point you're ranting about. . .

The original Kaaba itself might not have been all that spectacular of a structure to begin with. . . the current structure (not built by Abraham) is merely a cube shaped building about 40 feet high. . . so even if the claim is that Abraham built it, it wouldn't be that hard to beleive in my book. . .

cite - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabaa

. . .
Ok, I'll grant you that. It would be more ridiculous to say Jesus built the Pyramids. But the foundation of the thought is the same. They both lack any evidence?

Honestly, how likely do you think it is that Abraham built it? What is more likely is that the indigenous Arabs of towns on the Arabian peninsula heard beliefs from Jewish and Christian traders, adapted them into their own culture, created a political system & then superimposed other religion's figures on it, thus giving rise to many myths and altered stories. This has happened in many other indigenous cultures as well. They have done the same thing

Thats what probably happened in reality. Now beliefs, perceptions & word of mouth are different from real history.
     
     
  #353  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 6:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Starsky View Post
Honestly, how likely do you think it is that Abraham built it? What is more likely is that the indigenous Arabs of towns on the Arabian peninsula. . . what probably happened in reality. Now beliefs, perceptions & word of mouth are different from real history.
It's more likely that Abraham built the Kaaba than "angels" as legend has it. . . so to insinuate that there's something more "mythic" to this than any of the other religion's tales seems to me to be the real distortion of the story. . .

. . .
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  #354  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by shakman View Post
Imagine if this was in the Old City of Jerusalem (holy to three major religions which includes Islam - 2nd holiest). It would not be allowed to happen.

:
My first thought as well-

Honestly, this is just cheap, cheap, cheap.
It's like they want to turn their holliest site, into a cheap vegas resort.
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  #355  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 8:58 PM
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I think we are confusing what all this means for our values, and not necessarily the values of others. The idea that historical architecture should be preserved, as a "living" museum, etc. is a value. It is not a universally held one at that. And it is one that almost everyone here makes exceptions for, too. Let's face it, historic structures are important because they are rare, especially here in the west, thus providing unique experiences in terms of cultural and historical education. In order to create conditions for the appreciation of historical architecture, much of it must disappear. This is not my philosophy-- I'm not arguing that things should or shouldn't be bulldozed. I'm just talking about the relationship we have to history.

If you combine a cultural tendency to discount the value of historic structures if only for practical reasons with a religious ethic, that, as photolitherland mentioned, discourages even the appearance of a "worshipful" appreciation of things other than the religion's deity, you get this. This is a product of some very different values from ours, and at the same time some very similar ones, too.
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  #356  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 11:13 PM
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We've digressed on this topic far away from the original point of this thread. . .
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  #357  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2009, 11:37 PM
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I don't agree : erecting a tall building is not just an enginnering wonder. It could be a major step for a city, a society. Very often it changes the skyline forever. It's even more acurate for the most important muslim's shrine.
As shakman said :
Quote:
Imagine if this was in the Old City of Jerusalem (holy to three major religions which includes Islam - 2nd holiest). It would not be allowed to happen.
Now imagine something similar being built right next from Saint-Peter in the Vatican !! That would be considered as a sacrilege !!
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  #358  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2009, 10:57 AM
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Leaving all other considerations aside...

This thing is jaw-dropping, but not in a good way. The main tower looks horrendously out of proportion. It reminds me of a toy, or a model. A big part of the problem for me is that huge, fat spire. The building is mind-bogglingly out of scale to everything else standing today.

Admittedly, it will be amazing to look at when it's finished, if just for sheer size. More power to them for being able to build something this massive!
     
     
  #359  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2009, 1:33 PM
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Ugh, this thread has gotten off-topic....
     
     
  #360  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2009, 2:28 PM
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Ugh, this thread has gotten off-topic....
Why do you say that ? We're still discussing this complex, aren't we ?
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