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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2007, 4:04 AM
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Originally Posted by downtownserg89 View Post
i'm so late, but yeah those throwback pics were sweet.


loves it.
That's hot!
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2007, 4:10 AM
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Originally Posted by wburg View Post
It's not a "skyline" shot, but I do have this gigantic 4'x4' aerial photograph of downtown Sacramento from the early seventies that shows the shops, K Street, assorted state buildings, and the sea of parking lots that were a legacy of development.
I would very much like to see that!
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2007, 6:22 AM
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ozone: Yeah, but the NYT reporter knew about the Railroad Museum. We already have one of the best in the world, with the RTM we *will* have the best in the world. Railroads built this town and were its driving force for a century--like cars built Detroit. I know that not everyone is into trains (my eyes glaze over the same way when people talk about sports) but the expanded RTM is a big deal. It, and Old Sacramento, are the local equivalent of Fisherman's Wharf: the tourist place where locals don't go, but people from out of town tend to know about it, and tend to have a great time when they go there.

I assume we'll end up with some sort of compromise, with some part (probably at the very least the paint shop) in private hands and part in public hands, with a mix of uses.

Incidentally...this Saturday morning is the Sacramento Old City Association's quarterly "Preservation Roundtable," and it is being held *in* the Paint Shop, and it concludes with a tour of the rest of the Shops complex. I'll post the rest of the details tomorrow...
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2007, 5:25 PM
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I hoped to have a map to post today...I'll add it once I get it, but here's the skinny:

The Sacramento Old City Association presents its quarterly Preservation Roundtable, Saturday June 9 at 9:00 AM. Admission is $5 at the door.

The Roundtable will be held in the paint shop of the Southern Pacific Shops. For those unfamiliar with the Shops, it is the building farthest to the right in the Shops complex when facing north from the Amtrak passenger platform.

How to get there: By car, take I-5 to Richards Blvd. and turn towards the river (left if you're coming from downtown, right if you're coming from the north.) Turn left on Jibboom Street and look for the UP signs. Follow the signs through the Shops past the Paint Shop, where there is a large open area for parking.

By light rail, take the Gold Line to the Sacramento Valley station. Walk a bit east to the end of the platform, cross the tracks and just walk across the field to the Paint Shop, which is the building farthest to the right.

The Preservation Roundtable includes various speakers from the city of Sacramento, the local development community and those involved in historic preservation activities. Thanks to Thomas Enterprises, who have made the Shops building available for this event.

At 12:00 PM, the meeting will conclude with an exclusive tour of the Shops complex, led by California State Railroad Museum staff.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2007, 6:40 PM
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I'm not so sure that the reporter from NYC actually knew about the Railroad Museum before arriving in Sacramento. I imagine someone from Sacramento said to him "...and you'll have to visit our Railroad Museum!" To which he replied...er..no.

Hey don't get me wrong I really like the CSRM and I understand the importance of railroads to Sacramento and think the RTM will be great community asset. I just don't want us to become a 'one track town'. What's going to happen to Old Sacramento when the Railyards and other riverfront venues get going?

The fact that Old Sacramento is the local equivalent of Fisherman's Wharf doesn't make me nor anyone else I've ever talked to about very happy. Old Sacramento like every other place in the city belongs first to the people of this city. Never should we surrender a district to the tourists. San Francisco is not always the best model. The 'gee the out-of-towners are having a great time so we must be doing it right" mentally makes me mad.

From what I gather from talking to people in Old Sacramento the problem is that there is no consensus about what Old Sacramento should be. The Historic Old Sacramento Foundation, Old Sacramento Management, the City, the State Parks and the merchants all have their own, often competing agendas. The articles I've read, inlcuding yours, just confirms my suspicions about some of the people in charge. When people like Baxter of the OSF equate Old Sacramento with Disneyland I know we're in trouble. I've been to a few meeting of the OSF and think some of these people are bit delusional in thinking that Old Sacramento should or could be a West Coast version of Williamsburg. Give it up people. I never ever feel like I'm stepping back to the gold rush days -even during the Gold Rush Days. I feel like I'm on a Burbank movie set next to the 101 surrounded by tacky WT bubba's from Valley burbs and their plump kids.
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Last edited by ozone; Jun 5, 2007 at 7:07 PM.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2007, 7:09 PM
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Hey don't get me wrong I really like the CSRM and I understand the importance of railroads to Sacramento and think the RTM will be great community asset. I just don't want us to become a 'one track town'. What's going to happen to Old Sacramento when the Railyards and other riverfront venues get going?
I actually see this waterfront as having a real potential into becoming a sort of museum promenade anchored by the RTM/CSRM on the north, the greatly expanded Crocker in the middle and the Towne on the southern end.

Far from a one-track town, I think that's pretty impressive.

If the talked about I-5 bypass is ever actually built and that land returned to the city, a true promenade could take its place, add some additional attractions and create one of the most compact, beautiful and exciting museum/arts districts in the country.

Even if I-5 remains where it is as it is - those three oustanding anchors along the Sacramento will make for a great urban scene.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2007, 7:36 PM
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Oh you know I not opposed to using hyperbole to get my point across -.

Speaking of the Towe Auto Museum. I remember during some the public mettings on the Railyards they were always there pushing for a spot for a new location -since they'll probably have to move when the Docks is built-out- but no one seemed to care much. Since it's an automotive musuem I've always thought it should be located along a major street and not stuck off in the corner of nowheresville. I know it's not downtown but I've always thought it would be cool near the Tower Theater or somewhere in the TD. How about Cal DMV giving up a section of their huge parking lot along Broadway for the musuem? What better place for auto musuem than a next to the DVM HQ? They could make it look like an classic auto showroom/garage.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2007, 8:04 PM
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I guess I just have an easier time having fun in Old Sacramento. I was there much of Saturday night--started out at a private event at the Railroad Museum, afterwards we stopped for coffee on the Delta King and watched the fireworks at the end of the Rivercats game, then went to a nightclub and called it a night at around 1:00 AM. It wasn't super-crowded but the streets were busy and active, and felt pretty safe because it wasn't a ghost town. I didn't take a survey or anything but I don't think that it was all tourists, either.

And yeah, Old Sac does kind of lack focus. Why wouldn't it? It's a Gold Rush themed area consisting of mostly 1860s-1880s era buildings and a handful of modern reproductions, whose most distinct features are a 1930s bridge, a 1970s museum, a 1960s freeway and a 1920s riverboat. Basically, it is a collection of the handful of the West End that Sacramento managed to save from the wrecking ball, like someone grabbing a handful of most-cherished items on their way out of a burning building. So it's a little out of focus in retrospect, but it's safe to assume that the items saved from the flames have at least some personal importance, on their own if not in relationship to each other.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2007, 10:07 PM
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I'm not saying I couldn't have fun in Old Sacramento. But once you've been there a couple of times it's pretty boring IMO. I think if they don't do something that once there are other options -like the Railyards, they're going to lose business.

You cited objects but I citied people and their organizations as the main reason for Old Sacramento's lack focus. I do not believe the physical environment has very much to do w/ it. From what I've been able to pick up from the various people I have talked to it's the people who run things in Old Sac that's the problem. But not the only problem to be sure.

The shops and restaurants don't appeal to me at all. What's there to buy if you don't like tacky T-shirts and candy? I know I'm going to sound like a snob but I live in Midtown..why would I go to Old Sac to eat overpriced medicore food with a bunch of rednecks? I'm fine with a mix of people but don't expect to get my dollars when you cater to a small socio-economic demographic. Phil Jackson was wrong calling all of us rednecks but there certianly are still redneck-ish places here and Old Sacramento is sort of one those places.

I say get rid of parking meters and make everyone entering Old Sacramento get a ticket (like at the airport) -then they pay an attendant on their way out. Plant trees! It gets f'kn hot in Old Sacramento too. Old Sacramento used to have huge trees -some right in the middle of the street. It's ridiclously inconsiderate to make visitors suffer. Some restaurants should open up the tall windows so that they can have an indoor-outdoor feel. Allow drinking on the wooden sidewalks. Allow merchants to use neon in the signs. Build a kids playground in the park..... these things would do a hell of lot more than "branding" would.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2007, 11:01 PM
travis bickle travis bickle is offline
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know I'm going to sound like a snob but I live in Midtown..why would I go to Old Sac to eat overpriced medicore food with a bunch of rednecks?
You don't sound like a snob... more like a punk.

Midtown's great. Old Sac's not for you. Fine. No need to display your own ignorance while insulting those who may enjoy it.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2007, 11:22 PM
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I live in Midtown too (and consider myself a total midtown snob, btw), and admittedly there isn't a whole gargantuan lot of reason for us midtowners to go to Old Sacramento during the day. We've got the historic buildings, trees and walkable places to eat and shop covered already. However, you have to admit that Old Sac is the one part of downtown that (unlike, say, DTP and K Street) actually draws people from the suburbs and other outlying areas, even if they are "rednecks."

And the things that draw me (other than the trains) are generally nightclub/band oriented activities, which have been on the upswing lately. No tacky T-shirts involved, although I do sometimes get the urge to go buy candy cigarettes. I also noticed that a lot of Old Sac retail businesses are staying open until 10:00 PM or thereabouts, an idea that could bear some copying in Midtown.

The idea of removing parking meters and instead having an attendant has merit, although it would increase the physical separation of Old Sac even more because you'd have to pay to get in/out.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2007, 12:59 AM
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But I love to display my ignorance while insulting others..travis bickle. It's my inner punk.

You're right about the shops needing to stay open later in Midtown wburg. Although I think there's probably more late night restaurants in Midtown than in Old Sac..but of course how would I know? I will admit I am ignorant of Old Sac's nightlife scene. I just can't see myself there but maybe I should try it out. You also make a good point about the meters/parking -you're probably right. Ok Ok I feel myself losing this one..so I'd better go.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2007, 1:13 AM
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But I love to display my ignorance while insulting others..travis bickle. It's my inner punk.
Well... at least your consistent. Suppose someone on this board said they didn't like midtown because of all the "fags." Would you find that funny?

I don't either.

Amazing how some can laugh off bigotry as long as it's the right kind. Right ozone?
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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2007, 7:10 AM
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2007, 4:35 PM
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hey now travis, play nice. Ozone is expressing his opinion, and he hasn't said anything offensive in the process. I respect that. Besides, we're both midtown snobs, so I am sure we have plenty of common ground.

But now I will scream "TAKE THIS THREAD TO CUBA!" and continue to comment.

Midtown has a lot of restaurants open later now, but there isn't a lot of retail (places that sell stuff, rather than places that sell food) that stays open late. There are obvious reasons for this, but there's getting to be enough stroll-through traffic where it seems like a few businesses might consider it. I have noticed an upswing in businesses that keep their lights on in the evening, which both helps illuminate the street (more safety) and advertise the stores. I suppose that as midtown starts to wake up again we'll see more business, and someone (probably one of the little indie shops) will start staying open late on evenings other than Second Saturday and start making a mint, then others will follow suit.

Now, as to the comment by travis bickle, if someone posted that on here (assuming a moderator didn't step on them before I had the chance) my response to them would be "well then, STAY OUT OF MIDTOWN!" One of the things that drew me to midtown was its tolerance: I grew up in Citrus Heights, and got tired of the sort of things people would yell at me from pickup trucks...heck, I once got hassled by a guy who decided that my socks weren't manly enough.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2007, 4:44 PM
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hey now travis, play nice. Ozone is expressing his opinion, and he hasn't said anything offensive in the process. I respect that. Besides, we're both midtown snobs, so I am sure we have plenty of common ground.

But now I will scream "TAKE THIS THREAD TO CUBA!" and continue to comment.

Midtown has a lot of restaurants open later now, but there isn't a lot of retail (places that sell stuff, rather than places that sell food) that stays open late. There are obvious reasons for this, but there's getting to be enough stroll-through traffic where it seems like a few businesses might consider it. I have noticed an upswing in businesses that keep their lights on in the evening, which both helps illuminate the street (more safety) and advertise the stores. I suppose that as midtown starts to wake up again we'll see more business, and someone (probably one of the little indie shops) will start staying open late on evenings other than Second Saturday and start making a mint, then others will follow suit.

Now, as to the comment by travis bickle, if someone posted that on here (assuming a moderator didn't step on them before I had the chance) my response to them would be "well then, STAY OUT OF MIDTOWN!" One of the things that drew me to midtown was its tolerance: I grew up in Citrus Heights, and got tired of the sort of things people would yell at me from pickup trucks...heck, I once got hassled by a guy who decided that my socks weren't manly enough.
Listen, I already had way enough of this. But if people are going to squeal about stereotypes... well, that should include all stereoypes, not just the ones you are anyone else are comfortale with. I've found that for all of us - even midtownies - if your looking for bigotry, the first place to look is in the mirror.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2007, 4:56 PM
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Update about the SOCA Preservation Roundtable and Shops tour: the tour of the Shops will happen at the BEGINNING of the event, not at the end--therefore, get there NO LATER THAN 9:00 AM and BRING YOUR CAMERAS! The tour will be led by CSRM director Cathy Taylor and Thomas Enterprises' Richard Rich.

http://www.cityofsacramento.org/dsd/...on-roundtable/

Tour of Railyards Paint Shop by Sacramento Preservation Roundtable
When
Saturday, June 9, 2007
9:00am to 12 noon
Meeting Agenda
Where
Jibboom Street Gate of Railyards
See map (PDF - 171 KB)
http://www.cityofsacramento.org/dsd/...dtable-map.pdf
What
You are invited to attend the ROUNDTABLE to discuss the current & future state of Historic Preservation in Sacramento. This is a rare opportunity to see these historic shops bldgs! BRING YOUR CAMERAS. A thanks to Thomas Enterprises, Inc.

Parking available - see map w/Agenda for directions. Carpooling strongly preferred. Walking or Biking is not permitted because of terrain, fences, & tracks (liability issues).

$5.00 Donation Fee, payable at the door. Complimentary coffee, juices, and pastries will be provided.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2007, 5:22 PM
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Well I might be a little agro since I'm going through nicotine withdrawals...but in my mind 'rednecks' can't be equated homosexuals. To me ‘rednecks’ come in all races, economic and educational levels. To me ‘redneck’ is an unsophisticated worldview and not somebody’s innate nature which they have no control over. If I offended you travis bickle I'm sorry. That was not my intent. That's all I'm going to say.

Getting back on track…..

Am I the only one who thinks moving the historic depot is a colossal waste of money and time? Couldn’t the money that we would spend moving the old depot be better spent on making the new terminal really a showpiece so when people arrive the say “wow, this is Sacramento”? Some people have got it stuck in their heads that the old depot and the realigned tracks must stay together. I don’t get it.

Despite councilmember Lauren Hammond’s guarantees that it (the old depot) couldn’t be adapted to other uses I think it could be reused for other purposes -like a museum, City College, a lobby for a new hotel, etc. SOD is only considering the building itself – but what about it’s relationship with old Express Building and surrounding city? Isn’t taking the old depot out of it’s historical context more egregious than using it for purposes other than transit? Plus we will just be creating another empty lot downtown -which would most likely be turned into a huge parking lot until some developer decides to build something there.

I’m also not sure why they are talking about building a temporary facility. Why waste the money build an interim station? Can't the new station be built simultaneous with the track relocation?
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  #39  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2007, 5:51 PM
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Well I might be a little agro since I'm going through nicotine withdrawals...but in my mind 'rednecks' can't be equated homosexuals. To me ‘rednecks’ come in all races, economic and educational levels. To me ‘redneck’ is an unsophisticated worldview and not somebody’s innate nature which they have no control over. If I offended you travis bickle I'm sorry. That was not my intent. That's all I'm going to say.
Sounds like your confused about what the term redneck means: red·neck (rěd'něk') n. Offensive Slang

1) Used as a disparaging term for a member of the white rural laboring class, especially in the southern United States.
2) A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved., © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/redneck


Quote:
Originally Posted by ozone View Post
Am I the only one who thinks moving the historic depot is a colossal waste of money and time? Couldn’t the money that we would spend moving the old depot be better spent on making the new terminal really a showpiece so when people arrive the say “wow, this is Sacramento”? Some people have got it stuck in their heads that the old depot and the realigned tracks must stay together. I don’t get it.

Despite councilmember Lauren Hammond’s guarantees that it (the old depot) couldn’t be adapted to other uses I think it could be reused for other purposes -like a museum, City College, a lobby for a new hotel, etc. SOD is only considering the building itself – but what about it’s relationship with old Express Building and surrounding city? Isn’t taking the old depot out of it’s historical context more egregious than using it for purposes other than transit? Plus we will just be creating another empty lot downtown -which would most likely be turned into a huge parking lot until some developer decides to build something there.

I’m also not sure why they are talking about building a temporary facility. Why waste the money build an interim station? Can't the new station be built simultaneous with the track relocation?
I agree, moving the historic depot is a colossal waste of money and time.
There are other uses for it that can preserve the essence of the building
and still make it functional.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2007, 5:57 PM
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Well, yeah, moving the depot ismeans a lot of time and money, but it probably wouldn't be more expensive than building a new station in its place. The whole reason why a new depot was built in the 1920s was threefold: to make use of land previously occupied by Lake Sutter/China Slough, to have a train station that was closer to the heart of downtown, and to physically separate freight trains from passenger trains. The freights were run on the old tangent alignment (and location of the 1890s era station), and the passenger yard was placed in the current location to parallel the new station.

In my mind, that might be the best possible alignment: run a tangent track so freights don't have to slow down, and passengers won't have to dodge freights on the platforms. However, the final deal which allowed the city to take control of the station included an agreement to relocate the tracks to the old freight tangent, and there are safety concerns about switches and diamonds (which could increase risk of derailment for trains operating at speed) so close to the I Street Bridge.

Part of the appeal of moving the station is that the city would then own two blocks of relatively vacant downtown land, which would be good places for tall towers, and the station's new orientation would be closer to the Railyards while still close to downtown. It would also allow CSRM to transfer equipment to the Shops without using their current method of temporarily laying a piece of track across the UP mainline to shuffle equipment across within a ten-minute window. So there are pluses and minuses in both directions...
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