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  #81  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2007, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by econgrad View Post
I'll see you downtown Ozone!
We can agree to disagree..Yes Ozone, I have lived in Queens, SF, LA and here. Whooptie doo... That does not make your opinion valid that it is a real city, nor does it make my opinion valid that midtown is kind of boring, and downtown is empty at night. As far as art walks, I can drive to 2nd saturday in 10 minutes, park and walk.. then drive home. Not missing a single thing. The phonies are the ones who continue to praise how great midtown is, and then wonder why no one really wants to spend a ton of money on a 2 bedroom tiny condo. "Live The Grid", give me a break. The only reason midtown is at all happening at night is because people like me (us damn suburbanites) drive to places like Streets of London, or The Park, or 58 degrees, in our cars, and hang out and spend our money. Without us, NONE of those places would even exist because there would be no customers. All this BS about Suburbanites and Urbanites is phony as well. We are all just people who decided what to buy and where to live...All my friends who live in MT, like I once did, sure love to come to my place on a Saturday and use MY pool when it's 100 degrees or more here...maybe I shouldn't let them, stupid Urbanites, I can't believe they even know how to swim.
I am with you econgrad. You described Sacramento in a nutshell. As for "Live the Grid" I chuckled when I saw that for the first time, but at the same time I thought "good for you marketing people", "play it as much as you can". Better to be positive than negative.

I still believe one of the best of features of Sacramento is having a huge Arden Park "estate" with a giant pool, and all those trees. Same goes for Land Park, and all of our other great suburban neighborhoods.

Midtown is very nice and getting better. But it makes me laugh because the density is so small. In my book, its not really "urban" until the neighborhood obtains an average height of 3 to 8 stories. Midtown will never reach that density. Midtown is sort of like an "urban" college town without the University, its sort of like Santa Barbara but not nearly as upscale without the beach and pier. Its "University" is the thousands of state workers that spend their money in the most "urban" of settings Sacramento has to offer.

Back on topic, sorry, didnt realize, this thread is about West Sac after reading econograds post.

Last edited by BrianSac; Sep 30, 2007 at 4:49 PM.
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  #82  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2007, 6:49 PM
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Sign me up for the pro-Grid faction...what's even funnier is that I have a friend a couple blocks away in Midtown who does have a pool.

Actually, part of Midtown's college town feel is because thousands of Sac State and Davis students (not to mention Sac City, the USC extension, etc.) live in the neighborhood, and its general long-term appeal to young people with funny hair and preferences for obscure music. Some of them grow up to become state employees because they still dig it.

The density of Midtown is leaps and bounds ahead of the suburbs. The average Midtown lot is 40x80, with a smattering of 40x160 except for very rare exceptions, and a large number of those lots are duplexes, four-plexes, six-plexes and dingbat apartments having as many as 12 units. While that isn't Super Urban Dense Central, it does work out to around 20-30 DUA, plus the fact that a lot of those houses are shared by many people to save on rent (some friends of mine share a six-bedroom house where I used to live: they turned two downstairs rooms and a chunk of the basement into bedrooms so they could have 8 people living there fore $250/mo each!) Add the dense new developments into the mix and you get quite a total. Compare that to 3-4 DUA in new suburban developments.

And Econgrad is just wrong. He's just too out of the loop to know where the parties are down here. I find plenty to do and more I don't have time to do, and I *never* go to places like 58 Degrees, the Park, or other suburbanite hangouts. The closest I do is walk by and scare the customers with my downtowniness.

People don't want to spend money on a 2 bedroom tiny condo because they can get a kick-ass Midtown bungalow for less money! It really is that simple...
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  #83  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2007, 6:50 PM
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BrianSac and econgrad....MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE if you don't like it here!!!!!! Stay in the suburbs and stay out of skyscraperpage. You are infesting us with your suburban filth! Seriously, I cannot believe I am seeing this from people on here when the case is made so well for urban living. Sacramento is not the best example of urban living. But, please don't come here and bag on Sacramento as many people here love this city passionately (including myself!). WTF are you doing here if you don't even like Sacramento as it is!? My advice....shutup about how sucky you think Sacramento is or look around at the gem of a city we have and start making a positive contribution to this forum!
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  #84  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2007, 7:02 PM
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I expect nothing less from most Sacramentans. So many people have put this town into their little mental box and if anyone does not agree with them they are considered unsophisticated rubes. This town has the most negative people I've ever met anywhere. Instead of always badmouthing the city or constantly saying it'll never happen here why don't you spend some of your energy making a difference, trying to change things. I'm tired of socially lazy people who want everyone else to do it for them. Most of my friends are business people and designers who are trying to change things and all we get from the peanut gallery is this kind of shit. Well thankfully we aren't doing things just for you or your money (as precious as that is to us).

Anyway as you say this is way off topic so this will be my last comment on this.
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  #85  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2007, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by neuhickman79 View Post
BrianSac and econgrad....MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE if you don't like it here!!!!!! Stay in the suburbs and stay out of skyscraperpage. You are infesting us with your suburban filth! Seriously, I cannot believe I am seeing this from people on here when the case is made so well for urban living. Sacramento is not the best example of urban living. But, please don't come here and bag on Sacramento as many people here love this city passionately (including myself!). WTF are you doing here if you don't even like Sacramento as it is!? My advice....shutup about how sucky you think Sacramento is or look around at the gem of a city we have and start making a positive contribution to this forum!
I guess the truth hurts. Geeez all econgrad did was tell the truth. I love Sacramento for many reasons. I personally was not ragging on midtown nor Sacramento as a whole. I like midtown a lot for many reasons and I spend alot of money in midtown. I personally contribute to small businesses and support their success. I go out of my way to spend my money downtown/midtown. For example, I need a new collar and leash for my dog, instead of going to petsmart in the suburbs I will look for a small business that caters to dogs in midtown....thats a small example. When I want to shop at Macys, I make sure I go downtown first, despite how much I dont like downtown plaza.

I pesonaly would rather have the arena in the railyards or along the Sacto river in WEST SAC, over cal expo.

My only comment is that midtown is not really "urban" regarding density compared to other cities, like SF, NYC, Chicago, Montreal. Now if you want to compare midtown to the suburbs of course its more dense. I'm just trying to raise the bar a little; compare downtown/midtown to "real" cities, not the suburbs.

Midtown is clearly "urban" in the sense of all its small businesses and restaurants, bookstores, etc. I fully support all those places and "the grid" itself is one of Sacramento's greatest assets because it allows for walkability and density....its great place to walk your dog, too...so urban!

Oh, i workout downtown, too....i guess thats urban too.

There is nothing either one of us said to elicit such a reactionary response.

Last edited by BrianSac; Sep 30, 2007 at 10:11 PM.
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  #86  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2007, 9:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ozone View Post
I expect nothing less from most Sacramentans. So many people have put this town into their little mental box and if anyone does not agree with them they are considered unsophisticated rubes. This town has the most negative people I've ever met anywhere. Instead of always badmouthing the city or constantly saying it'll never happen here why don't you spend some of your energy making a difference, trying to change things. I'm tired of socially lazy people who want everyone else to do it for them. Most of my friends are business people and designers who are trying to change things and all we get from the peanut gallery is this kind of shit. Well thankfully we aren't doing things just for you or your money (as precious as that is to us).

Anyway as you say this is way off topic so this will be my last comment on this.
Oh, and by the way, Ozone, I had a small business of my own for 2yrears on 19th street in the heart of midtown. I shared a massage studio with 2 other people. Part of my business was "pro bono", if you will, catering to the HIV positive people so they could receive massage services at a great discount if not for free. A gov't grant paid for these services which by the way is no longer available at the time. I ran my business in addition to my other full time job.

Half of my business was for these special needs clients, the other half for full paying customers.

Dont be so quick to judge.

Dont you just love the roof of the new Calstars building in WEST SAC, :-)

Last edited by BrianSac; Sep 30, 2007 at 10:12 PM.
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  #87  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2007, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by neuhickman79 View Post
BrianSac and econgrad....MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE if you don't like it here!!!!!! Stay in the suburbs and stay out of skyscraperpage. You are infesting us with your suburban filth! Seriously, I cannot believe I am seeing this from people on here when the case is made so well for urban living. Sacramento is not the best example of urban living. But, please don't come here and bag on Sacramento as many people here love this city passionately (including myself!). WTF are you doing here if you don't even like Sacramento as it is!? My advice....shutup about how sucky you think Sacramento is or look around at the gem of a city we have and start making a positive contribution to this forum!
Tell me to shut up? Glad this is just a forum...
First off, I never bagged on the city. I am bagging on the people who hold downtown and midtown as something sacred compared to the terrible suburbs where the majority of us live. The truth is, there really is no difference. The people are the same, the restaurants are pretty much the same, and the bars and clubs and parties (Wburg, your downtowniness doesn't scare anyone!...don't be a dork, you have made me think about preservation, something I have never really cared about before. And I hope we see each other at a party downtown sometime and you would know who I really am...but I will remain anon on this thread. And you say Streets, The Park, and 58 degrees are now suburban Hangouts?? Well, Old I's, The Distillery, Golden Bear, Blue Lamp, Zebra, Bennies (Q street), and even those urban parties would be emtpy without people driving into downtown and hanging out and spending money....there would be nothing downtown at all without the so called suburbanites coming to visit.) that are happening in midtown are full of all the people who live in Roseville, Folsom, Carmichael, etc. I was responding to another post from someone asking why somoeone would buy a condo in West Sacramento or Downtown Sacramento, when you can purchase a house with a yard and pool for less in the outer areas. My point was, there is no good reason yet, and yet people are marketing Midtown as something special, I claim it is not anything special yet. Do I want it to be special? Yes! Read all my previous posts and you will see I stick up for this city just as much as everyone else, I even went after the administrators who run this forum because they let some jerk off try to make Sacramento look bad when he posted the thread about the Train attack. Remember?
So, back to the main issue before this drama because you are hurt from criticism of your "Sacred Midtown"...boo hoo...

Most people in the Sac Metro Area, will not buy an expensive condo in Downtown yet, because it is just not worth it if you can buy an incredible house for the same price on American River Drive in Carmichael. So, the condos are just not worth it yet. Over time, downtown will be built up, and become something special (I hope...) but it looks like not for another decade or so.. right now it offers nothing different than what Folsom, Roseville, or Davis cannot offer. The same people who hang out downtown are the same people who live in the suburbs. Ask around at the next 2nd Saturday, the streets are full of people, and 80 percent of them, looking at the art, drinking free wine, walking around dressed night, performing music in the streets,etc, live in the suburbs! Get over yourselves. We are all in the same metro area....

Last edited by econgrad; Sep 30, 2007 at 11:12 PM.
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  #88  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2007, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by econgrad View Post
I'll see you downtown Ozone!
We can agree to disagree..Yes Ozone, I have lived in Queens, SF, LA and here. Whooptie doo... That does not make your opinion valid that it is a real city, nor does it make my opinion valid that midtown is kind of boring, and downtown is empty at night. As far as art walks, I can drive to 2nd saturday in 10 minutes, park and walk.. then drive home. Not missing a single thing. The phonies are the ones who continue to praise how great midtown is, and then wonder why no one really wants to spend a ton of money on a 2 bedroom tiny condo. "Live The Grid", give me a break. The only reason midtown is at all happening at night is because people like me (us damn suburbanites) drive to places like Streets of London, or The Park, or 58 degrees, in our cars, and hang out and spend our money. Without us, NONE of those places would even exist because there would be no customers. All this BS about Suburbanites and Urbanites is phony as well. We are all just people who decided what to buy and where to live...All my friends who live in MT, like I once did, sure love to come to my place on a Saturday and use MY pool when it's 100 degrees or more here...maybe I shouldn't let them, stupid Urbanites, I can't believe they even know how to swim.
I completely agree with you on this, econgrad. "Live the grid" is comical, especially affordability wise. I wanted to buy a place too and was not going to spend the ridiculous kind of coin they wanted for smallish midtown condos or lofts. I wanted a new modern place at reasonable prices. To each their own. Some want an older, victorian house or bungalow. Sorry not me. I bought in Natomas 'cos it's close enough to MT/DT where, granted, most of the entertainment and nightlife is. No different than, say, going to the Gaslamp quarter in downtown San Diego or Pioneer Square area in downtown Portland. While I also sometimes go to the restaurants, Natomas has enough restaurants and retail, thank you.

People that drive into MT certainly adds to the vibrancy. It certainly is less vibrant in the weekend daytime IMO, especially DT. Also, all this talk about less parking in MT may be desired by some residents but is really nonsense until there is a truly adequate and convenient transportation network in Sacramento (like in Portland or SF). Try getting from Natomas to Midtown without driving. Good luck. Less parking in midtown means the "surburbanites" that drive into and patronize MT/DT businesses will just go elsewhere. I'll gladly take light rail into MT/DT if it was available (like I've done to say Folsom). Midtown business certainly do not share this desire to reduce parking. Unlike SF, Midtown business still need "surburbanites" to help their business because the density just isn't there yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neuhickman79 View Post
BrianSac and econgrad....MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE if you don't like it here!!!!!! Stay in the suburbs and stay out of skyscraperpage. You are infesting us with your suburban filth! Seriously, I cannot believe I am seeing this from people on here when the case is made so well for urban living. Sacramento is not the best example of urban living. But, please don't come here and bag on Sacramento as many people here love this city passionately (including myself!). WTF are you doing here if you don't even like Sacramento as it is!? My advice....shutup about how sucky you think Sacramento is or look around at the gem of a city we have and start making a positive contribution to this forum!
A little harsh, I would say. You can like and criticize a place at the same time (e.g SF and it's traffic, homelessness, cost, etc). Folks here may like a lot about Sac but still criticize the mayor, city council, traffic, certain developments etc. There is lots more to like about Sacramento than just Midtown. Recognize that. If every Sac suburbanite decided to move to Midtown, then it would take a nano-second before the complaints about any and everything starts to spill out.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy midtown but midtown alone does not Sacramento make.

Last edited by otnemarcaS; Sep 30, 2007 at 11:04 PM.
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  #89  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2007, 10:46 PM
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If we're taking "sides" here then sign me up for the pro "Greater Sacramento Area" faction. This "boundary disconnect" mentality I've seen within the last few years is just plain surreal.

And to keep this topical- I could've sword someone asked if there was anything new going on in W.Sac, but can't find it now. But if someone did, ask me on Tuesday

Last edited by deeann; Sep 30, 2007 at 11:01 PM.
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  #90  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2007, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by BrianSac View Post
My only comment is that midtown is not really "urban" regarding density compared to other cities, like SF, NYC, Chicago, Montreal. Now if you want to compare midtown to the suburbs of course its more dense. I'm just trying to raise the bar a little; compare downtown/midtown to "real" cities, not the suburbs.
What you're saying depends largely on exactly what parts of SF, NYC, Chicago or Montreal you're talking about. I've never been to NYC or Montreal so I don't really have a basis for comparison, but I know San Francisco and Chicago pretty well. The vast majority of those cities' area are NOT skyscrapers, or even 5-8 story buildings.

Think about neighborhoods like the Castro in San Francisco, or Melrose in Los Angeles. They're primarily 1-3 stories tall, but they're certainly urban. People are out walking and interacting with the city, shopping, etcetera. They don't need to be high-rise urban because there is enough capacity for urban living in historic building types. If you head west or south from downtown in San Francisco, you run into architecture that starts to look a lot more like things you see in midtown Sacramento. A bit closer together, and a bit taller on average, but the same concepts apply because they were mostly built around the same time.

Chicago tells the same story. Sure, there's plenty of tall in Chicago, largely because it was a city of a million people 110 years ago, and back then suburbs had to be a lot closer in. But there are still many neighborhoods of predominantly 2-3 story single-family detatched dwellings throughout the city of Chicago--not out in the Chicagoland suburbs, but in the city itself, in neighborhoods like Lincoln Park and south Chicago.

Here's San Francisco (pretty recognizable):

Here's Chicago (Lincoln Park):


econgrad: Actually, the point of the discussion was more along the lines of, Why would people buy high-rise condos when they could buy in midtown/downtown, with a choice of detatched new, attached condo new, mid-rise new, or historic, at a lower price?

And yeah, we probably should meet in person sometime and talk about this stuff face to face, which is generally more fun and less acrimonious than all this anonymous muttering via the Internet.

otnemarcaS: I agree with you on the parking issue re: suburbanites spending their dollars downtown is good, except for one thing: San Francisco ABSOLUTELY depends on commuters, driving or not. They're a boutique city, and if people stopped coming from the greater Bay Area (and Sacramento) for dining, culture and entertainment (not to mention commuters) who work there but can't afford to live there), the city would find itself in one hell of a financial pickle!

Anyhow, to kind of try and sidle this back in the direction of West Sacramento, one reason this subject has come up because it is the contention of developers (like LJ Urban) that West Sacramento's proximity to downtown provides an opportunity to create a "new Midtown" of equal proximity and similar levels of urban intensity. That was the original intent of the guys who first built West Sacramento a century ago (and they also put in a streetcar) and the new round have similar ideas. While it will take a good long while for West Sac to grow a Midtown-like culture, I can see it happening.
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  #91  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2007, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by deeann View Post
If we're taking "sides" here then sign me up for the pro "Greater Sacramento Area" faction. This "boundary disconnect" mentality I've seen within the last few years is just plain surreal.

And to keep this topical- I could've sword someone asked if there was anything new going on in W.Sac, but can't find it now. But if someone did, ask me on Tuesday
The "boundary disconnect" mentality is what set me off in the first place (I take it personally because it even affects the music scene here), but I do apologize for causing all the rants on the West Sacramento thread...I was the one who asked about new stuff in west Sac, but I re-edited (re-wrote) my thread to make it less insulting towards certain individuals and more appropriate for the forum. My bad....


Wburg, I pretty much live at Golden Bear most nights of the week...maybe we will run into each other.
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  #92  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2007, 1:03 AM
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What you're saying depends largely on exactly what parts of SF, NYC, Chicago or Montreal you're talking about. I've never been to NYC or Montreal so I don't really have a basis for comparison, but I know San Francisco and Chicago pretty well. The vast majority of those cities' area are NOT skyscrapers, or even 5-8 story buildings.
Uh, just cant let it go, can you.

First of all, I never said anything about skyscrapers.

Seocndly, I said 3-8 stories, not 5-8 stoires.

Thirdly, you forgot the part where I call midtown "urban" because of its businesses, restaurants, etc.


The buildings and houses in SF are all right next to each....makes a big difference regarding density and SF fits the bill of 3-8 stories in 40% of its neighborhoods. Chicago is wide and big and there are many, many neighborhoods that fit the 3-8 story pattten.

The point is: Besides downtown, Midtown is our most urban/dense neighborhood, yet its only 1-2 stories average.

Dont you just love the new Calstarss building in WEST SACRAMENTO. I wonder if they will light it up at night like the pyramid building?
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  #93  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2007, 1:15 AM
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Econograd, Yep, I helped with music promotion/other stuff in the late '80's/early '90's and it yeah, really wasn't that hard to get someone from Citrus Heights, Carmichael, South Sac, etc. (most anywhere in the greater metro area) to come to a show in MT/DT and vice-versa with getting people from Midtown/Downtown out to a show elsewhere. I just saw/still see it as kind of one big city and I met really neat people from all over the area (and still do meet neat and get to work with people from all over the area).

And in general maybe that's just naive thinking (since I've had my share of insults directed at me to my face (not just the internet) from where I've live or have lived before and just chalked it up to some random a-holeness), but maybe now there is for real those "visible/invisible boundaries" designated by map lines and closed-wall mindsets that must not be crossed. Though I'd like that to change for the better.

Last edited by deeann; Oct 1, 2007 at 1:40 AM.
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  #94  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2007, 2:12 AM
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Econograd, Yep, I helped with music promotion/other stuff in the late '80's/early '90's and it yeah, really wasn't that hard to get someone from Citrus Heights, Carmichael, South Sac, etc. (most anywhere in the greater metro area) to come to a show in MT/DT and vice-versa with getting people from Midtown/Downtown out to a show elsewhere. I just saw/still see it as kind of one big city and I met really neat people from all over the area (and still do meet neat and get to work with people from all over the area).

And in general maybe that's just naive thinking (since I've had my share of insults directed at me to my face (not just the internet) from where I've live or have lived before and just chalked it up to some random a-holeness), but maybe now there is for real those "visible/invisible boundaries" designated by map lines and closed-wall mindsets that must not be crossed. Though I'd like that to change for the better.
Me too...I agree.
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  #95  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2007, 2:44 AM
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Dont you just love the new Calstarss building in WEST SACRAMENTO. I wonder if they will light it up at night like the pyramid building?

lol
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  #96  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2007, 2:55 AM
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lol
glad you got a chuckle, made me laugh too
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  #97  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2007, 6:44 AM
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Last Saturday morning I got the chance to take some shots from the CalSTRS tower.
It was quite the experance at 7am. Some of these photos will be in a future photo
thread of mine, so... take a look, it was way cool.

W. Sacramento waterfront- 19 story office building (CalSTRS HQ)
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...40#post3089740





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  #98  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2007, 7:41 AM
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Shweet!

Nice close-up. and the sunrise is perfect. can't wait to see the rest of them.
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  #99  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2007, 7:50 AM
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Great shots. How did they let you go up there?
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  #100  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2007, 2:17 PM
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I

am

so:

jealous!
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