"I'm Jealous of Vancouver" polemic in the US Northwest section

[agrant]

I understand and agree pretty much, but the Port Mann is one of the few places I think needs to be addressed soon. The fact is, the population keeps increasing out in the valley (Surrey, Langley etc.). Are we to just stand and watch the only major highway link to the rest of the country grind to a stop? If you add capacity, yes - the traffic will also increase in other areas. If you do nothing, the engine of the city takes a big hit. Too bad there isn't a Westcoast Express type line into the city from Surrey and Langely, at least that would give people out there an option. Thank god I live in the city and don't have to deal with all that.

When the Golden Ears bridge is finished, I think that will be a positive thing for traffic flow out there. That should take a lot of the cars off of the Port Mann.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by agrant

I understand and agree pretty much, but the Port Mann is one of the few places I think needs to be addressed soon. The fact is, the population keeps increasing out in the valley (Surrey, Langley etc.). Are we to just stand and watch the only major highway link to the rest of the country grind to a stop? If you add capacity, yes - the traffic will also increase in other areas. If you do nothing, the engine of the city takes a big hit. Too bad there isn't a Westcoast Express type line into the city from Surrey and Langely, at least that would give people out there an option. Thank god I live in the city and don't have to deal with all that.

When the Golden Ears bridge is finished, I think that will be a positive thing for traffic flow out there. That should take a lot of the cars off of the Port Mann.

Well it's not like the Trans-Canada is a 10-lane highway from here to Toronto.....we could've built a lot of transit with $3 billion. Think of what it could buy....the Canada Line is the equivalent of 10 road lanes and if my calculations are correct, SkyTrain is equivalent to about 16 road lanes. A lot cheaper and a ton more capacity.

The only project that should be going ahead as part of Gateway is the perimeter road project.

[deasine]

^I believe the expansion of Hwy 1 is needed too. EVEN THOUGH I still think the Gateway Project should also address on Rapid Transit too. Surrey is huge now compared to before. They should actually have their share on Rapid Transit. I.E. extension of Expo Line.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by deasine

^I believe the expansion of Hwy 1 is needed too. EVEN THOUGH I still think the Gateway Project should also address on Rapid Transit too. Surrey is huge now compared to before. They should actually have their share on Rapid Transit. I.E. extension of Expo Line.

Surrey is B.C.'s capital for suburbia....if you think they need more sprawl and cars, well then .

[deasine]

I honestly think that they should have a new TransLink now. One that actually adresses the concerns of Surrey. Maybe like TransLink Vancouver, TransLink South Fraser, etc.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

Well it's not like the Trans-Canada is a 10-lane highway from here to Toronto.....we could've built a lot of transit with $3 billion. Think of what it could buy....the Canada Line is the equivalent of 10 road lanes and if my calculations are correct, SkyTrain is equivalent to about 16 road lanes. A lot cheaper and a ton more capacity.

The only project that should be going ahead as part of Gateway is the perimeter road project.

The Trans-Canada is pretty much our only truck route through the valley and to the east, so it's important to keep things moving. I'm all for rapid transit. We need that for sure. I just don't think it's the only answer to our traffic problems. A lot of the people crossing Port Mann come way the heck out there, rapid transit couldn't possibly serve all those burbs without spending tens of billions. Having said that, hopefully there is some room for rail based traffic on any Port Mann addition. I believe they're doing that on the Po Co/Pitt Meadows crossing.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by agrant

The Trans-Canada is pretty much our only truck route through the valley and to the east, so it's important to keep things moving. I'm all for rapid transit. We need that for sure. I just don't think it's the only answer to our traffic problems. A lot of the people crossing Port Mann come way the heck out there, rapid transit couldn't possibly serve all those burbs without spending tens of billions. Having said that, hopefully there is some room for rail based traffic on any Port Mann addition. I believe they're doing that on the Po Co/Pitt Meadows crossing.

If the project included commercial-only lanes, and maybe even transit and hov lanes (3 or more passengers), then i'd understand and probably support this but Gateway as it is will only encourage car use, mainly single-occupancy. On the highway, it's scary seeing almost every car with only one passenger (the driver).

Without those dedicated lanes and tolling, it won't help commercial vehicles at all....five years after it's done, it'll simply be what it is today - congested - but only with more lanes and more cars. It's like copying and pasting pictures of congestion on the existing highway.

[agrant]

Ta da! http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/gateway/2_hwy1.htm#description

[deasine]

As I said earlier, I believe if you introduce new road infrastructure, you must introduce new transit infrastructure as well.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by agrant

Ta da! http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/gateway/2_hwy1.htm#description

i've read that before, but i'm not really sure if they'll actually do it...nor does this seem enough.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by agrant

I understand and agree pretty much, but the Port Mann is one of the few places I think needs to be addressed soon. The fact is, the population keeps increasing out in the valley (Surrey, Langley etc.). Are we to just stand and watch the only major highway link to the rest of the country grind to a stop? If you add capacity, yes - the traffic will also increase in other areas. If you do nothing, the engine of the city takes a big hit. Too bad there isn't a Westcoast Express type line into the city from Surrey and Langely, at least that would give people out there an option. Thank god I live in the city and don't have to deal with all that.

When the Golden Ears bridge is finished, I think that will be a positive thing for traffic flow out there. That should take a lot of the cars off of the Port Mann.

The kind of transportation infrastructure you provide influences the way a city develops. Leave the Port Mann the way it is and people aren't going to buy into the exurban crap that's going on in Surrey and Langley because it won't be convenient for them to make the commute in that kind of traffic. Basically, congestion is good for sustainable transportation/land development.

As for the suggestion that Hwy 1 should be widened...I really don't understand how this is a good idea. Assume you go ahead and widen the highway, what's going to happen to that extra traffic (that's what happens when you widen a highway...you get more traffic) when it hits downtown? All your doing is taking people away from transit and increasing traffic in inner city Vancouver (who never wanted this stuff in the first place).

One final point...this is the Minister of Transportation's initiative right? Coincidence that he lives in Cloverdale?

[mr.x]

^ very well said. this will do nothing but encourage sprawl. the highway 01 link to the rest of canada excuse is quite lame.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

^ very well said. this will do nothing but encourage sprawl. the highway 01 link to the rest of canada excuse is quite lame.

Have any of you guys worrying about "more sprawl in Surrey" actually driven out there recently? My family has a house in Coquitlam, and need to go to Surrey quite frequently. Traffic on Highway 1 is an absolute mess from Cape Horn interchange eastward -- practically all the time. Twinning the Port Mann bridge isn't going to be the doomsday scenario you Vancouverites fear. It will only serve to partially mitigate what is today a huge bottleneck.

In the absence of any vast improvements in rapid transit across the Fraser River, how exactly do you propose people get around?

Yes, *only* building new roads isn't the answer (priority lanes for commercial vehicles and variable tolls that penalize single-driver cars would help). However, the Port Mann bridge as it stands today is a blockage that significantly impacts movement of goods and costs businesses in time and money.

[twoNeurons]

^^^ very good post. I'm like to start a poll in another thread. Should be interesting.

A scenario: Surrey <--> Coquitlam.
There is currently is NO way for most of Surrey Residents to get anywhere near Coquitlam without a car. There's no direct bus, there's no skytrain or rapid transit service, there's nothing, really.

You'd have to get a bus from where you are to Surrey Skytrain, change trains get off the train at either braid or lougheed and hope that one of the buses takes you where you want to go. That's the most direct way. You need 3 transfers at least.

There just aren't options for people.

To be honest, the Port Mann needs to be a minimum of 3 lanes today. If it had that capability, then perhaps the twinning could be held off a few more years and some kind of transit considered, but honestly speaking, how many here actually use that bridge? How many people here actually have crossed that bridge during rushhour on a regular basis?

I'm telling you, I used to live in the valley and work for a company there until my company moved north of Fraser. And that was 8 years ago traffic. The commute went from pleasant to hellish.

It's not that there was MORE traffic, I wasn't an evil person stealing valuable highway space. I was still going to be on that road regardless, still on the highway commuting, I just had an extra few kilometers to go. What's the difference between commuting between Aldergrove and Surrey and Langley and Coquitlam? Answer: one of them has a bottleneck, which plain and simple shouldnt' be there. Remember, folks, we're not talking about widening a bridge that's in the middle of an urban area. We're not talking about widening a freeway that will tear up the urban fabric here.

Having 4 6-lane Bridges hasn't increased traffic to Vancouver's downtown. Vancouver hasn't artificially limited car traffic by making a couple of lanes on Burrard into bike lanes.

Why? Wouldn't it be a good thing? There may be a little more congestion, but we don't want cars in Downtown, right? We want to push people onto transit, right? And this is an area (downtown) where there are lots of options.

Like it or not, the #1 highway is here to stay and widening it to 4-lanes at least gives us some of the options of not choking on the smog produced at the car idling factory collectively known as the port-mann rush-hour shuffle.

Should they provide a transit option alongside the port mann? Sure, absolutely. In fact, it should probably be commuter rail and run right from a station in North Surrey down the centre median and connect with the BNSF this side of the River around Braid to run downtown.

Anyway... that's my rant.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Twinning the Port Mann bridge isn't going to be the doomsday scenario you Vancouverites fear. It will only serve to partially mitigate what is today a huge bottleneck.

This one project may not lead to a doomsday scenario, but the precedent that it sets could lead to one. Vancouver is one of the most forward-thinking cities in NA when it comes to transportation, and I'd hate to see it fall victim to this kind of studpidity.

The word "bottleneck" refers to the shape of the neck of a bottle, ie. going from wide to narrow. If anything, twinning the bridge and widening the highway will only create more of a literal bottleneck when the traffic reaches Hastings.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Deez

This one project may not lead to a doomsday scenario, but the precedent that it sets could lead to one. Vancouver is one of the most forward-thinking cities in NA when it comes to transportation, and I'd hate to see it fall victim to this kind of studpidity.

The word "bottleneck" refers to the shape of the neck of a bottle, ie. going from wide to narrow. If anything, twinning the bridge and widening the highway will only create more of a literal bottleneck when the traffic reaches Hastings.

Agreed. and right now, we're talking about a 100% increase in bridge capacity.....that's monsterous.

Like it or not, the #1 highway is here to stay and widening it to 4-lanes at least gives us some of the options of not choking on the smog produced at the car idling factory collectively known as the port-mann rush-hour shuffle.

Though in five years time, we'd still have the same shuffle but only that there's twice as many cars doing it......



Kill Gateway now..............and while we're thinking backwards, Ontario is thinking forwards with today's announcement of a $17.5-billion transit plan for Southern Ontario. What does it include?

- 52 rapid transit projects
- 902 kilometres of new or improved rapid-transit routes will be built by 2020
- extending the TTC's Yonge subway line up to Highway 7
- electrifying the GO Lakeshore lines, which will make a trip from Hamilton 15 minutes faster and reduce emissions
- boost capacity on other GO Train lines
- expand bus service across Highway 407
- build two rapid-transit lines across Hamilton
- commit funds to the TTC's $6-billion Transit City plan, which calls for seven new light-rail routes crisscrossing Toronto.

MOVE ONTARIO 2020 PROJECTS
GO Transit Commuter Rail

GO Lakeshore West rail line capacity expansion by adding a third track from Port Credit to Oakville
GO Lakeshore West rail line capacity expansion by adding a third track from Burlington to Hamilton
GO Lakeshore East rail line capacity expansion by adding a third track from Union Station to Scarborough
GO Lakeshore East rail line extension from Oshawa to Bowmanville
GO Lakeshore rail line electrification (SuperGO)
GO Milton rail line capacity expansion from Union Station to Milton
GO Georgetown rail line capacity expansion from Union Station to Georgetown
GO Bradford rail line capacity expansion from Union Station to Bradford
GO Bradford rail line extension and capacity expansion from Bradford to Barrie
GO Richmond Hill rail line capacity expansion from Union Station to Richmond Hill
GO Richmond Hill rail line extension to Aurora Road
GO Stouffville rail line capacity expansion from Union Station to Stouffville and extension of the line to Uxbridge
New GO Crosstown rail line between Weston Road and the Don Valley
New GO Crosstown rail line between the Don Valley and Agincourt
New GO rail line from Union Station to Bolton
New GO rail line on the Havelock line from Agincourt to Pickering
New GO rail line on the Seaton line from Agincourt to Brock Road in Pickering
GO Bus Rapid Transit(BRT)

GO Bus Rapid Transit along Highway 403 from Oakville GO rail station to Mississauga
Mississauga Transitway west of Mississauga City Centre to Winston Churchill Boulevard
Mississauga Transitway east of Mississauga City Centre to Renforth Drive
GO Bus Rapid Transit northwest Toronto link from Renforth Drive to York University
GO Bus Rapid Transit on Markham Road from Highway 407 in Markham to Highway 401
GO Bus Rapid Transit on Highway 401 from Markham Road in Scarborough to Pickering GO rail station
GO Bus Rapid Transit connector on Highway 427 from Renforth Drive to Highway 407
GO Bus Rapid Transit along Highway 407 from York University to Langstaff (Yonge Street) and on to Markham Road
GO Bus Rapid Transit along Highway 407 from Burlington to Highway 401
GO Bus Rapid Transit along Highway 407 from Highway 401 to Highway 427
GO Bus Rapid Transit along Highway 407 from Highway 427 to York University
Subway and Other Rapid Transit

Yonge subway line extension north from Finch station to Highway 7 (Langstaff)
VIVA Markham North-South Link from Markham Centre to Don Mills station
Pearson Air-Rail link to Union Station
Hamilton east-west rapid transit on King/Main Streets from Eastgate Mall to McMaster University
Hamilton north-south rapid transit on James/Upper James Streets from Rymal Road to King Street
Brampton Acceleride on Queen Street from Main Street to Highway 50
Hurontario Light Rail Transit from Queen Street in Brampton to Lakeshore Road in Mississauga
Eglinton Avenue Light Rail Transit from Renforth Drive to Kennedy Road in Scarborough
Yonge Bus Rapid Transit busway from Finch station to Steeles Avenue
Dundas Street West Light Rail Transit from Kipling station to Hurontario Street
Scarborough RT extension from McCowan station to Sheppard Avenue
Sheppard Avenue Light Rail Transit from Don Mills Road to Morningside Avenue
Finch Avenue West Light Rail Transit from Highway 27 to Yonge Street
Don Mills Road Light Rail Transit from Steeles Avenue to the Bloor-Danforth subway
Jane Street Light Rail Transit from Steeles Avenue to Jane station on the Bloor-Danforth subway
Malvern Light Rail Transit from Kennedy station to Malvern
Waterfront West Light Rail Transit from Union Station to Long Branch
VIVA Yonge Street from Steeles Avenue to Highway 7 (Langstaff)
VIVA Yonge Street from Highway 7 (Langstaff) to 19th Avenue in Richmond Hill
VIVA Yonge Street from 19th Avenue to Newmarket
VIVA Highway 7 from Highway 50 to Yonge Street (Langstaff)
VIVA Highway 7 from Yonge Street (Langstaff) to Cornell
Durham rapid transit line on Highway 2 from Oshawa to Pickering
Spadina subway line extension north from Downsview station to Highway 7 (Vaughan Corporate Centre)
*Projects subject to the review of the Greater Toronto Transportation Authority.

We could do something similar here in BC with $3 billion dollars.....but noooo, we have a Minister of Transportation who thinks backwards and insists on his way or the highway. Both ways being his.

$1.3 billion - improve the West Coast Express, making it an all-day service that goes both east and west by double-tracking it....negotiate with CPR. And build a new commuter rail line from Surrey to downtown.

$600 million - 300-400 buses for south of the Fraser River

$600 million - funding for the Evergreen SKYTRAIN Line (Falcon could use his take it or nothing approach: build SkyTrain or you get nothing )

$500 million - South Fraser Perimeter Road

[agrant]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

^ very well said. this will do nothing but encourage sprawl. the highway 01 link to the rest of canada excuse is quite lame.

Let's take down the Port Mann bridge then.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by agrant

Let's take down the Port Mann bridge then.

Wow, you're a master of logic.

Nobody is saying road capacity isn't needed. That's why I and most people around here do support the South Fraser Perimeter Road. The Port Mann is needed, but certainly not something twice its size to encourage sprawl and more car use.

If the project was all about building commercial and transit lanes and maybe HOV lanes (3 passengers or more), I'd be all for it. But we haven't had any assurances and it seems like this project will benefit single-occupany cars more than anything else rather than moving goods. No free-traffic (single-occupancy) lanes should be included in the project.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Deez

This one project may not lead to a doomsday scenario, but the precedent that it sets could lead to one. Vancouver is one of the most forward-thinking cities in NA when it comes to transportation, and I'd hate to see it fall victim to this kind of studpidity.

The word "bottleneck" refers to the shape of the neck of a bottle, ie. going from wide to narrow. If anything, twinning the bridge and widening the highway will only create more of a literal bottleneck when the traffic reaches Hastings.

All the traffic isn't going to Hastings.

Hastings is also on the Grid. Traffic is better handled on the grid as opposed to the freeway.

If there are reasonable solutions for transit people will take them. However, right now there aren't.

How do you propose a person get from Langley to Port Coquitlam? The distance isn't that great and yet there is only ONE reasonable way to get there... the Port Mann.

If someone in Port Coquitlam wants to get to East Vancouver, it's a 15 minute 24km jaunt down the freeway, or Lougheed Hwy, or even the Barnet Hwy, and if you really want, Canada Way, but that's out of the way.

The same 24km from Walnut Grove in Langley to Port Coquitlam has the same amount of Freeway but at least 1.5x the time in NORMAL traffic.... 2.5x in Rush Hour.

We're not talking about Encouraging more people to move out to Langley and Surrey if they work in Downtown, it's more along the line of them working in a neighbouring city like Coquitlam or New West but having an antiquated 2-lane road between the two of them.

When you think about it, many of the ARTERIALS in Vancouver have 3 lanes.

The jobs in the GVRD aren't centralized. This means that people often work closer to their homes but transit is more difficult to do.

They may be trying to make city centres that are transit friendly like Surrey Central, but there aren't many GOOD connections between many of these centres. Vancouver is NOT a spoke and Hub city like Calgary. It's more of a Spider Web.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Surrey%2C%20BC&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wl"]GVRD Map

If you look at the region geographically, it doesn't make sense to have a 2-lane bridge as the sole connection.

Sure, it artifically limits the traffic, but it also makes the region inefficient.

I'm sure we will get more traffic in a few more years. But I don't think it will be as few as 5. We're probably talking more like 10. And by then, there will hopefully be some reasonable rapid transit between some city centres or even hopefully commuter rail.

I would prefer this be PART of the gateway plan, a COMPREHENSIVE transit plan which would double the cost of Gateway (Well maybe increase by %50)

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

Wow, you're a master of logic.

Nobody is saying road capacity isn't needed. That's why I and most people around here do support the South Fraser Perimeter Road. The Port Mann is needed, but certainly not something twice its size to encourage sprawl and more car use.

If the project was all about building commercial and transit lanes and maybe HOV lanes (3 passengers or more), I'd be all for it. But we haven't had any assurances and it seems like this project will benefit single-occupany cars more than anything else rather than moving goods. No free-traffic (single-occupancy) lanes should be included in the project.

While that's true that double isn't needed... they're not going to build a bridge with a small capacity.

Unfortunately, if they do an Alex Fraser where they started with 2 lanes and QUICKLY moved it to 3, it will happen so soon.

I agree though, 2 lanes SOV, 1 HOV, 1 Commercial... enforced with barriers. Even a separated Express in the middle, two lanes with limited access like they do with Seattle's express lanes. OR 2 + 2: HOV or Commercial + 2xSOV

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Make provision for the new bridge to have 4 lanes + Rail, but easily expandable to 6 + rail and (with work) to 8+rail, so when the port mann has to come down, this one could be reworked to allow 4 each way.