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  #61  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2007, 5:08 AM
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baltimore has something like 196 killings this year. Simply amazing for a medium sized city.
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  #62  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2007, 5:27 AM
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Originally Posted by staff View Post
Metropolitan Copenhagen (~2 Million) has had 2 or 3 murders so far this year, I believe.
3

( last years we had 12, so this years seems to be record low )
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  #63  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2007, 5:01 PM
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Hand guns should be banned. Rifles should be strictly controlled.
Parts of society in the U.S. and it's mentality is screwed up. Watch 'Bowling for Columbine'

But...If a person goes to Somalia to be a mercenary and is killed. How bad is that. He knew the rules and went to play. I use this only as an example because,

If a drug dealer kills another because of a territory dispute, how bad is that? They know the rules.

If gang members kill each other, how bad is that? They too know the rules and voluntarily choose to play. Perhaps the dead kid would turn out good, maybe not.

If someone dies because of a domestic dispute, the murderer is not after me. That's bad, but how much should I fear? A little, because he's a nut with a gun.

If two people get in a fight and one comes back and shoots the other. How bad is that as long as I don't get in that fight? Bad because killing is made easy.

If innocent people, especially children die because of these actions, that's really bad.

If someone dies because of a robbery or burglary, that too is really bad.
But I bet those numbers are a lot less than people who die because of gangs or drugs.

How important are the murder rate number? How much should we fear? Maybe the media and NRA fuel those fears. Maybe we don't fear enough and hence don't make necessary changes.

Just an opinion, I could be wrong.

How many people knew someone who was murdered and how??
I knew one who was shot during a robbery.
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  #64  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2007, 7:14 PM
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Very true...most of the murders are premeditated and are between people who are previously acquainted with each other. Random crimes are not all that common, especially murder.
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  #65  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 12:26 AM
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Through the end of June Phoenix had 112 according to the Phoenix PD website. Not sure how that compares with 2006 through June, but there were 234 for the year in 2006. So probably not far off.
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  #66  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 1:17 AM
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I personally don't know anybody who was murdered. I know of two people who were murdered who were related to people I know. Both by handguns, both over drugs, both premeditated, and both by people they knew. Both handguns were purchased illegaly. In one case both the killer and the victim were white. In the other, the killer was black and the victim white. Both had taken a wrong turn in life and were associated with the wrong types of people. One lived in the ghetto and the other in a semi-rural area. If you make an assumption about which area the killer lived, you'd probably be wrong. About 18 years ago, I was robbed at gunpoint at a convenience store in a very rough area in Charlotte ... uhmm, but I'm not dead. Can't say I didn't know there was a risk.

That said, most people I know don't own guns but my parents do. Didn't even know that until I was a teenager. They have a 12-guage shotgun and a .22 rifle securely hidden out of sight. They were handed down from my grandfather from back during a time when hunting was more common and you didn't need a license to hunt. I don't own a gun and really have never considered owning one.

In Indianapolis, the murder rate is very high for a city its size although I think it is tracking less than last year. As is typical with many cities, the vast majority are concentrated in one area of the city and most are committed by people who have already had significant problems with the law. Most are committed by young people between 17 and 30. Most live in poverty in an area with the highest drug use, poverty, unemployment and dropout rates in the city. Interestingly, it may be the most diverse area of town with fairly equal representation of white, black and latino. The common denominator is poverty. Hopelessness is endemic to the area. Murder does happen in more affluent areas although it is relatively rare. If you exclude this area of town, the murder rate might be comparable to cities in Canada and Europe.

Last edited by JMininger; Aug 16, 2007 at 1:31 AM.
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  #67  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 2:23 AM
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Its personal, but over my life ive been friends of several people who have been murdered. Each different cases, but it all has been over dumb shit, and its sickening. The hate some people have for another person (sometimes without even knowing them) is disturbing.

This whole topic shows how little we seem to value life for a '1st world ' nation. I see the rates of cities in canada and europe and am simply amazed. Maybe here in America we are too concerned with money and individual gain to be worried about the well-being of our fellow citizens. Or too concerned with some fake image we want others to see. Cause it sure as hell isn't about survival (ie food and shelter) or protecting communities, or protecting our rights and freedoms.
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  #68  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 2:43 AM
NewYorkYankee NewYorkYankee is offline
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50% of Philadelphia's homicides are over "altercations".

Not drugs.

Not domestic.

Not robbery.


Just Bullshit.


I think it's simply an American thing. Europeans don't display this type of crass disregard for life, and here's why:


Prior to WWII, Europe had always had a very violent undertone. Many of the aspects of American urban violence came from Euro-trash values of "respect" and "power". Anyway, then WWII broke out. After the slaughter of 30 million European people, and the awesome evil of the Hitler regime/Holocuast, I believe a conceiousness has taken hold of non-violence. America has never had a war on it's soil, and I believe that becuase American youth have never been exposed to true horror and violence, we lose the true meaning of the value of human life. This is what separates Europe and America.
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  #69  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 3:16 AM
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Originally Posted by vodnik View Post

How many people knew someone who was murdered and how??
I knew one who was shot during a robbery.
Boom. I seen a post by I believe JustADude on SSC saying that murder rates do not show how dangerous a city because many are due to drugs, gangs, altercations, or domestic. You know how dangerous a city is when you see the number of muggings in a city. I don't know the post word for word but it made sense.
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  #70  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 4:15 AM
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Originally Posted by NewYorkYankee View Post
50% of Philadelphia's homicides are over "altercations".

Not drugs.

Not domestic.

Not robbery.


Just Bullshit.


I think it's simply an American thing. Europeans don't display this type of crass disregard for life, and here's why:


Prior to WWII, Europe had always had a very violent undertone. Many of the aspects of American urban violence came from Euro-trash values of "respect" and "power". Anyway, then WWII broke out. After the slaughter of 30 million European people, and the awesome evil of the Hitler regime/Holocuast, I believe a conceiousness has taken hold of non-violence. America has never had a war on it's soil, and I believe that becuase American youth have never been exposed to true horror and violence, we lose the true meaning of the value of human life. This is what separates Europe and America.
Sorry bud, have to point out a flaw in your argument. I'm not going to get into a terribly long dissertation but I just want to point out that the majority of murders happen in areas that have a long history of crime and violence. Areas where criminality is generational. These kids are no strangers to violence. Many of them view life as kill or be killed. These are the murders that usually get reported in a small section in the metro section. You are right that most of it is over stupid shit, a slight, a disagreement, revenge. It is about respect. In a world that offers no respect for them. In a world where their mother will smack them upside the head and tell them to shut the fuck up. In a world where people tell them they aren't worth shit. In a world without fathers or role models. In a world where they are told that school isn't worth anything cause they won't get a job anyway. Where a lot of the people they know can't get a job. Where they simply have to protect themselves. In a world where all they know is violence. Race? You better believe that is part of the story. It wasn't that long ago that an entire nation told a race that it isn't as good as the white race. The effects of that are still evident and will linger on for a long time even though my generation was the first to be born in the civil rights era. Welfare? Disastrous. I've lived in these neighborhoods and seen it over and over in my life and it is only fortunate that I don't personally know anyone killed. Even right now in my office building where they hand out food stamps, I see and hear these people on a daily basis. It is shocking. My wife worked in the state employment office and the stories are endless. Do Americans tend to undervalue life. Some do. We know of the big sensational cases. Columbine. VA Tech. The doctor who murders his wife and kids over money. These are the well known murders but they are far fewer than what goes on in the streets on nightly basis. No wars on American soil? Technically not correct but that should be obvious. What about Canada, when was the war exactly that caused them to place such value on human life? What about video games or movies ... oh, wait ... Canadians watch those things too. Frankly, right now there is a war going on right under our noses that most people are oblivious to. They see a story in the paper or on the evening news and think, oh isn't that a shame, must be drugs, we need more police. That's not the solution; in some of these neighborhoods if there were any more police it would be a military state. I was in Times Square about a month ago and saw a drug deal going down not more than 30 feet from two cops with M16s chatting with tourists. If people were even half as outraged about what is going on here as they are about the war in Iraq, maybe we could spend the time to actually debate about the problem. Suicide bomber kills 4 Americans makes the front page but 3 black kids with records getting shot and a body found in an abandonded house barely gets a nod. And by the way, I also used to live in Philadelphia back when the murder rate was even higher than it is now and I still follow the Inky so I am very familiar with the situation there. As a matter of fact, the Inky has posted many good articles on these issues.

I don't disagree with your assertion that the reason for Europe's low murder rate has some relationship with the great wars but I do disagree with your assertion that because those wars weren't fought on US soil, we have a higher murder rate.

Last edited by JMininger; Aug 16, 2007 at 5:06 AM.
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  #71  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 5:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkYankee View Post
50% of Philadelphia's homicides are over "altercations".

Not drugs.

Not domestic.

Not robbery.


Just Bullshit.


I think it's simply an American thing. Europeans don't display this type of crass disregard for life, and here's why:


Prior to WWII, Europe had always had a very violent undertone. Many of the aspects of American urban violence came from Euro-trash values of "respect" and "power". Anyway, then WWII broke out. After the slaughter of 30 million European people, and the awesome evil of the Hitler regime/Holocuast, I believe a conceiousness has taken hold of non-violence. America has never had a war on it's soil, and I believe that becuase American youth have never been exposed to true horror and violence, we lose the true meaning of the value of human life. This is what separates Europe and America.
Um there have been many wars on American soil.
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  #72  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 5:33 AM
JMininger JMininger is offline
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Originally Posted by dktshb View Post
Um there have been many wars on American soil.
I am going to give New York Yankee the benefit of the doubt and assume that he intended to say that there have been no RECENT wars on US soil.
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  #73  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 7:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkYankee View Post
Prior to WWII, Europe had always had a very violent undertone.
Huh

Funny enough I think most here have the complete opposit view with the "wild west", gunslingers, Indian wars, the wars on Mexico, civil war and so on in the US when we where simply chilling doing our agricultural stuff...


Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkYankee View Post
Many of the aspects of American urban violence came from Euro-trash values of "respect" and "power".
Oh that crazy Euro-trash - what will they do next

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkYankee View Post
America has never had a war on it's soil
Wow, my history teacher apperently filled me with lies!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkYankee View Post
and I believe that becuase American youth have never been exposed to true horror and violence, we lose the true meaning of the value of human life. This is what separates Europe and America.
So European youth have been exposed to true horror and violence?

Sorry mate, but I think you are way off...


From how I see it the US have always been a macho-place determent on having no one bossing them around after getting rid of the British..

It's like an arms race where you have to have a gun in case a burglar or robber has one and then he has to have a bigger one and so on...

And with all thoese guns and all that economic inequality and poverty in a strong consumer soceity that is why you have the crime and all the murders..


Don't blame Europe for your problems, not even the darkest pits of Sicily have ever come close to places like Camden, Detroit, St. Louis or Richmond when it comes to murders
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  #74  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 3:56 PM
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^Our country was formed by tens of millions of your poorest most uneducated extremely fertile immigrants. This mass immigration stopped only 40 years ago. Our culture is largely made up of the poor your part of the world, Europe, shipped over here.
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  #75  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 5:05 PM
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Wrongo Pipo Our country is made up of many of the best and brightest from Europe. People who had a dream and the guts to make a better life. It's still happening today with the immigrants from India and elsewhere coming to get educated and choosing to settle here.

America, not all but a higher percentage than in other countries, has violent undertones. From the government and it's foreign policy to the military, to the suburbs where people own several guns to protect themselves to the inner cities where very little hope for betterment and a family life that sucks drives the kids on to the streets where they have to prove how tough they are.
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  #76  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 8:25 PM
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Funny enough I think most here have the complete opposit view with the "wild west", gunslingers, Indian wars, the wars on Mexico, civil war and so on in the US when we where simply chilling doing our agricultural stuff...
Nevermind European imperialism. And don't kid yourself, Europe had plenty of wars (certainly more than the US) prior to the World Wars. Of course, America still had their manifest destiny and all. Basically, both you guys were dicks.
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  #77  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 10:08 PM
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My post wasn't meant to be taken as a history thesis. It's simply a vauge musing as to why America stands out from the rest of the industrialized world in terms of violence. We can all admit that purley random/baselss violence is much more markeded here (US) than in the rest of first world, and worst of all, it's rising.


As far as inequality goes, it's tragic. It's wrong. It must stop. But "race" goes both ways. When people ask questions like "Is Obama Black enough?", I think it's the inner-city that has the race issue. It shouldn't matter if someone is from Nigeria or Nebraska, just weither he'll improve your community.

As far as banning guns, it will never happen. Get over it. And frankly, with people like Bush in charge, it's not good from a freedom standpoint anyway.

The one poster is right: Welfare, and the Identity politics mindset has been a disaster. Al Sharpton/Louis Fakahrran/Jesse Jackson is the problem, not the soultion.










Do you think, maybe, there is nothing we can do?.....
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  #78  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2007, 10:55 PM
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Number of black murder victims on rise


By Lara Jakes Jordan, Associated Press Writer
August 9, 2007


WASHINGTON --Nearly half of the nation's murder victims in 2005 were black, and the number of black men who were slain is on the rise.

A majority of the black murder victims were relatively young -- between 17 and 29, the Justice Department said in a study released Thursday.

The department's Bureau of Justice Statistics report offers a snapshot of racial disparities among violent crime victims. Black people represented an estimated 13 percent of the U.S. population in 2005, the latest data available, but were the victims of 49 percent of all murders and 15 percent of rapes, assaults and other nonfatal violent crimes nationwide.

Most of the black murder victims -- 93 percent -- were killed by other black people, the study found. About 85 percent of white victims were slain by other white people.

National Urban League President Marc Morial, a former mayor of New Orleans, said the data reflect a trend that cannot be reversed by law enforcement alone. It will require changes in public education and a revival of federal summer jobs programs for economically disadvantaged young people, he said.

"The mixture of illegal drugs, easy access to handguns, and young men who feel locked out of economic opportunity is what these statistics reflect," Morial said.

An estimated 16,400 people were murdered in the United States in 2005, down from a peak of 21,400 a decade ago. Similarly, the number of black people slain dropped over the last 10 years, from 10,400 in 1995 to almost 8,000 in 2005.

But the murder rate among black men rose slightly between 2004 and 2005, continuing several years of dips and increases.

Two years ago, 6,783 black men were murdered, up from 6,342 in 2004, the study shows. The murder rate among white men also rose, but less dramatically: 5,850 were slain in 2005, compared with 5,769 the year before.

Murders of women, white and black, remained relatively unchanged between the two years.

Additionally, more than half of black murder victims -- 51 percent -- were in their late teens and twenties. Comparatively, just over a third -- 37 percent -- of white people murdered were between 17 and 29, the study shows.

The study did not take a detailed look at violent crime victims who are Hispanic or Latino, or other races. However, it concluded that violent crime victims were more often black than any other race except American Indians.


Among the study's other findings:

--Never-married black people were more likely than all other blacks to be victims of violence.

--Poorer black people were at a greater risk of violence than households with higher annual incomes.

--Black people living in cities were more likely to be violent crime victims than people living in suburban or rural areas.


© Copyright 2007 Associated Press.
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  #79  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2007, 5:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
don't kid yourself, Europe had plenty of wars (certainly more than the US) prior to the World Wars.
Let's see shall we:

The US
Colonial wars (1620–1774)
War of Independence (1775–1783)
Early national period (1783–1815)
Continental expansion (1816–1860)
American Civil War (1861–1865)
Post-Civil War era (1865–1917)
Indian Wars (1865–1890)
Spanish-American War (1898)
Philippine-American War (1899-1913)
Banana Wars (1898-1935)
The Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901)

Denmark:
30 Year War 1618 - 1648
Thorsteinson War 1643 - 1645
Northern Wars 1657 - 1660
Scanian War 1675 - 1679
Great Northern War 1700 - 1720
Russo-Swedish War 1788
Napoleonic Wars 1800 - 1813
Gunboat War 1807 - 1814
First War of Schleswig 1848 - 1850
Second War of Schleswig 1864

So the US 11 - Denmark 10

Hmmm

( Denmark was btw neutral doing both World Wars )
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  #80  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2007, 8:30 AM
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The only stats I can find are for the whole of Victoria: 214 homicides in 2005/2006. Victoria's population is 5,100,000.

75% of Victoria's population is in Melbourne, so you could probably guesstimate there were around 160-170 homicides in Melbourne in the same timeframe.
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