The Next 7

[WaterlooInvestor]

-

[WaterlooInvestor]

-

[WaterlooInvestor]

-

[HAMRetrofit]

This is a useless highway route. Who honestly cares about commuters between Kitchener and Guelph? Another major misallocation of economic recourses that could have been used towards funding something useful.

[WaterlooInvestor]

-

[jeremy_haak]

HAMRetrofit, what do you suggest?

As it stands right now, I think widening will be sufficient, but population projections (we all know how accurate those are) predict more than a million people between the two regions by 2031 or so. I don't really agree that an expressway is always the best idea, but something has to be done. Other than Highway 7 between Kitchener and Guelph, and Highway 24 between Cambridge and Guelph, there is essentially no direct road connecting the two cities. All the back road require significant detours. (Seriously, whoever planned the concessions here were drunk out of their mind.) Building the bridge across the Grand River between Fairway Rd and Kossuth Rd would probably help quite a bit, but something else has to be done.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by WaterlooInvestor

Have you been asleep for the past 50 years? Perhaps the fast-growing 700,000+ people in Waterloo and Wellington Counties care.

The region has been successful for the past few years but not anything to get overly excited about. Mostly the region has benefited from proximity to and growth of the GTA. Maybe even the rebounding of tech to some degree. The 700,000 people in the region will not benefit from the highway’s construction only a small fraction probably a few thousand will. However the full 700,000 will be paying for it along with the rest of the province’s tax payers.

Originally Posted by WaterlooInvestor

Perhaps all the entrepreneurial companies in the area care. Companies like LINEMAR and Co-Operators in Guelph and RIM, Broil King, M&M Meat Shops, Economical Insurance and Equitable Life in KW. Perhaps it's the 3 universities in the area that share some resources.

How is a commuter highway going benefit these companies at all? I could see if this was going to be a trade route that opened the region up connecting it to the 401. maybe. This highway is to open access for driving commuters who otherwise should be looking to alternative means of transportation, which are not available. The benefactors will be home builders and super center developers just like what has occurred in the GTA. My point is K/W has the opportunity to learn from the GTA's mistakes yet is choosing not to.

Originally Posted by WaterlooInvestor

These are two wealthy areas that deserve provincial funding..

Who cares? There are many wealthy areas in Ontario that deserve provincial funding perhaps for something more useful than a commuter highway. If by investing into infrastructure more constructive things like improving border crossings or improving freight or passenger rail might be needed more urgently than a commuter highway? Things that actually benefit the economy on a larger scale than the few thousand commuters who travel between Kitchener and Guelph each day.

Originally Posted by WaterlooInvestor

Ignorant comments like this just give your city of Toronto a bad name.

My city of Toronto will have a good name no matter what I say. My comments actually give my city a good name because they are right.

[ikerrin]

So, what are we crazy?

There is so much congestion that we need a divided highway, but we don't have enough density for inter-city passenger rail.

They should just increase rail travel between the two cities and restrict suburban development. When the trains are running at capacity then maybe turn the road into a freeway.

This road obsession we have drives me nuts.

[Cambridgite]

Is this supposed to be some kind of success story? Yay for more sprawl, car-dependency, and environmental destruction. Just watch. Once this highway is built, say goodbye to the Regional Growth Management Strategy. As you can see on that map, several interchanges are planned for roads that are out in the middle of nowhere. I guarantee you those interchanges will become magnets for more power centres, industrial parks, and monotonous subdivisions, courtesy of Reid's Heritage Homes.

I'm of the opinion that this highway is a terrible idea. Yes, it will be used, so it's not "useless". Is it the best option to deal with the problem? No. Thanks to political boundaries that don't represent true functional regions, there is no public transit between Waterloo Region and Guelph. The least that could be done is the two regions could operate 2 bus routes (one on highway 7, one on highway 24) as a joint partnership between Guelph Transit and Grand River Transit and a transfer can take place around the border of Waterloo and Wellington. Better yet, we could have the GO-train out here which would not only connect Waterloo and Wellington together, but also provide connections with the GTA. And of course the best option is to not commute, but live in the same city you work in. Of course, this is Ontario, so that idea is unpopular .

[vid]

The worst part is the at-grade intersections. Having to stop every 900m is just a pain in the ass.

Why not create a transit system between Waterloo and Wellington? Terrace Bay and Schreiber share one, and they're as far apart as Waterloo and Guelph. (And have a combined population of 3,000)

[WaterlooInvestor]

-

[vid]

Port Arthur and Fort William had joint operated routes in the 1890s, so I don't see why it wouldn't work there. Until about 1980, the way TBTransit was laid out, it looked like two systems with a route connecting them. They set it up having a PA Transit route going into the centre of Fort William and back, and an FW Transit route going into the centre of PA and back, so you have a route going in either direction every half hour at the time. KW could have a similar thing.

The route could leave Guelph, go to downtown Waterloo (At which point, another bus would leave Guelph), go down to downtown Kitchener, down to Cambridge, (At which point, another bus would leave from Guelph) and back. Have the route going in both directions, clockwise and counterclockwise, and that should be efficient.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by WaterlooInvestor

Actually there's been A LOT to get overly excited about. Waterloo Region is not a GTA story, which is the biggest myth some people try to spread on here.

For the most part it has, most of the upswing as occurred post 'Greenbelt' and 'Places to Grow'. K/W is a success story due to an outflow of GTA residents looking for value in the 'New Homes' suburban living arrangement. With this is the development of some business parks with tech companies and logistic warehouses where they can work a little closer to home. If this legislation were not made K/W would not be registering on the map for these new homes buyers and business park developers. They are willing to drive to the GTA for work to justify the 'value' of their home. K/W is following the same trend as Barrie and Milton and is not special in anyway.

Originally Posted by WaterlooInvestor

"The new highway will serve more than 19,000 people who commute daily between Kitchener and Guelph." That's a census 2001 number. We'll have to wait a few more months until the 2006 numbers are out (Release no. 6: Tuesday, March 4, 2008) but unofficially, the number of commuters has increased. By the time the highway is finished, which is at least 5 years (2012) and more likely up to 10 years (2017) away, both cities and the number of commuters will have grown.

$400 million to serve 19,000 driving commuters? You have to be joking that you think this is a reasonable way to allocate this type of capital?

Originally Posted by WaterlooInvestor

So when a GTA highway is built that obviously isn't used by all 5 million residents it makes no sense either? Also most people living and working in Waterloo and Guelph wouldn't use the 404, but does that mean it should never be funded? This is supposed to be a province where we work together - not every infrastructure project in every city will be used by all 12.8 million Ontarians.

Honestly what is your point here? You are justifying this spending $400 million on a commuter expressway on the basis that the GTA has built expressways in the past? From a fiscal perspective, it is better to maintain these expressways and to maximize their use than to build new ones that we don't really need.

Can we work together by investing into infrastructure projects that are going to benefit more than a small 19,000 people and do not even serve as a significant trade route? Why should Ontarians invest in infrastructure that is going to be used primarily for transporting commuters between one town and another so that they can live in the opposite town than they work?

Will this stretch of land between Kitchener and Cambridge be attractive for development if no expressway is built? No! This is the reason of its conception. The construction of expressways is the framework for decentralizing cities. This is not a new concept Jane Jacobs spoke about it the 60s. It is surprising that Kitchener has not heard about it yet.

Originally Posted by WaterlooInvestor

We pay our taxes in this area as well. If many km's of highways can and have been built to support Toronto, I think Waterloo/Guelph has the right to deserve a relatively small 18 kilometres long highway.

This makes no sense the 401 and 407 were built as trade corridors to alleviate congestion for transporting goods between prominent cities like Chicago, Detroit, and Montreal. You have no right for anything on the basis that Toronto has already done it.

Originally Posted by WaterlooInvestor

Actually, your comments give your city an arrogant attitude, such that Toronto is the centre of the universe and nothing exists beyond it's borders. Newsflash: there are 7 million Ontarians that live outside of the Toronto CMA. We all pay our taxes, and deserve infrastructure built in our cities too.

My voice does not represent the entire GTA populous of 5 million and I don't think Toronto is the center of the universe although you may. I have not lived here long. I have lived in cities in Europe and the States. This is just the typical perception that somehow the larger more prominent city owes your small city something back for its success. For example, this is the way that someone living in Rochester would view New York City. I am not denying the rest of Ontario does not deserve to undertake the construction of new infrastructure. I would state however this particular expressway project would rank incredibly low in terms of its usefulness in comparison to other projects that could be undertaken (just for comparison expanding GO service to Guelph and Kitchener or alleviating congestion at the Ambassador bridge). The commuter expressway construction bandwagon of the 1950's is over so why not innovate a better solution for this problem? Why is this so hard to comprehend from a place that claims to be the 'knowledge and innovation' capital of Canada? seems pretty backwards to me.

[Deez]

I could spit out a number of environmental and aesthetic reasons why this plan is stupid, but they've been thrown around so many times in this forum that they've become trite.

I will, however, point out that this is stupid from an operational standpoint. The articles state that counstruction would last around 5 years, finishing in 2015, and then congestion would start to hit around 2028...meaning that the project's construction period is 40% of it's acceptable service life. Nice investment. The best part is that the 2028 estimate is likely a few years too late. I'm familiar with the model that would have been used, and it does not take into account the influence that a highway has on influencing land use.

MTO should really change their name back to the Ministry of Highways...or even better, get somebody to lead the ministry in a manner that would fit their current name.

[1ajs]

aww why are people comunting from one city to another to work? isint that un economical why arnt they working where they live..........

[SlickFranky]

seriously...one guy said he'd been making that commute for 30+ years

[vid]

Originally Posted by Deez

I will, however, point out that this is stupid from an operational standpoint. The articles state that counstruction would last around 5 years, finishing in 2015, and then congestion would start to hit around 2028...meaning that the project's construction period is 40% of it's acceptable service life. Nice investment.

Our 13 kilometre two lane bypass took 15 years. The government will spend another 120 million to expand it around 2010.

And, thinking about that, it becomes obvious: The MTO doesn't know what the fuck it's doing.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by WaterlooInvestor

Actually there's been A LOT to get overly excited about. Waterloo Region is not a GTA story, which is the biggest myth some people try to spread on here.






So when a GTA highway is built that obviously isn't used by all 5 million residents it makes no sense either? Also most people living and working in Waterloo and Guelph wouldn't use the 404, but does that mean it should never be funded? This is supposed to be a province where we work together - not every infrastructure project in every city will be used by all 12.8 million Ontarians.



We pay our taxes in this area as well. If many km's of highways can and have been built to support Toronto, I think Waterloo/Guelph has the right to deserve a relatively small 18 kilometres long highway.



Actually, your comments give your city an arrogant attitude, such that Toronto is the centre of the universe and nothing exists beyond it's borders. Newsflash: there are 7 million Ontarians that live outside of the Toronto CMA. We all pay our taxes, and deserve infrastructure built in our cities too.







I completely agree that there should be more transit options in the area: both the GO-train and inter-city transit is a must. That said, even in more transit friendly places like Europe or Toronto, there are still highways. My point being there will always be some people who drive. Since the population is growing rapidly in Waterloo/Guelph, it's not unusual that more highways need to be built. An area with 1 million people (where W&G are heading) is typically going to have more km's of highway than an area with only 500,000. Until I see the 401 down to 3 lanes in each direction - I think a large number of cars are here to stay. As such we need to plan accordingly and build this highway, but at the same time also improve transit in the area so that the next highway expansion can be delayed as long as possible.



I'd say it is a success story because it helps to keep Waterloo and Guelph's infrastructure level on a par, per capita, with other areas. The highway connects two rapidly growing areas. I don't want sprawl either, but regardless in reality there will be some as the population grows. My realistic goal isn't to completely stop sprawl, but rather slow it's growth by focusing on reurbanization (that's where the LRT comes into play) and when suburbs are built trying to build them better.

In terms of the Regional Growth Management Strategy, I'm of the understanding the area south of the highway is supposed to be developed. I've heard that industrial parks are envisioned around the airport. Am I wrong? I don't think this will stop the reurbanization process in Waterloo Region, as I don't think it's realistic to expect all of the next 220,000 of population growth in to move into a condo/apartment downtown. I think if we could get even 40% to live in a reurbanized area we'd be doing incredibly well. However that still leaves 132,000 additional people that will be living in sprawl.



That's the old highway. For the new highway 7 "You'll be able to drive 18 kilometres between Kitchener and Guelph in under 11 minutes, without a traffic light to slow you down."



I wouldn't go as far to merge GRT and Guelph Transit, but we should have more inter-city transit. I agree with Cambridgite, that the two agencies should set up a jointly operated route between both cities.

Oh no, not this Moron again. Please stop your I love Waterloo prattle and go out on a date or something.

[Cambridgite]

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

For the most part it has, most of the upswing as occurred post 'Greenbelt' and 'Places to Grow'. K/W is a success story due to an outflow of GTA residents looking for value in the 'New Homes' suburban living arrangement. With this is the development of some business parks with tech companies and logistic warehouses where they can work a little closer to home. If this legislation were not made K/W would not be registering on the map for these new homes buyers and business park developers. They are willing to drive to the GTA for work to justify the 'value' of their home. K/W is following the same trend as Barrie and Milton and is not special in anyway.

Correlation does not equal causation. Yes, commuters do influence growth here. We've had them long before the greenbelt and places to grow, which are relatively new documents. The tech companies have little to do with commuters. The universities are the prime reason they are here. Logistics warehouses are here for the 401 and industrial land cheaper than the GTA. KW has been on the map for a long time. The greenbelt will just exacerbate it. If it's all about providing single family homes for Torontonians, please explain all the lofts and condos going up in Central KW. For that matter, let's see the development list for Milton and Barrie and see how urban it is.

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Why should Ontarians invest in infrastructure that is going to be used primarily for transporting commuters between one town and another so that they can live in the opposite town than they work?

I agree.

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Will this stretch of land between Kitchener and Cambridge be attractive for development if no expressway is built? No! This is the reason of its conception. The construction of expressways is the framework for decentralizing cities. This is not a new concept Jane Jacobs spoke about it the 60s. It is surprising that Kitchener has not heard about it yet.

I am familiar with this concept. I don't think you have any idea what's going on here though. You say that a highway won't attract development around Kitchener or Guelph. But tell that to the residents of New Hamburg and Baden, who have seen their villages take off in the past couple of years because they're close to highway 7 (aka Conestoga Pkwy), 10 minutes west of Kitchener's city limits. Quite far from the 401 I might add. Elmira is doing the same thing, north of Waterloo, on the 86. Breslau, just east of Kitchener, is essentially becoming part of the eastern suburbs right now, and this is without the highway! So what makes you think a new highway in that same direction wouldn't attract development?

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

This makes no sense the 401 and 407 were built as trade corridors to alleviate congestion for transporting goods between prominent cities like Chicago, Detroit, and Montreal. You have no right for anything on the basis that Toronto has already done it.

I agree. Those highways were much smarter investments. If any highway should be built here, it's one that connects to the 401 in Cambridge and extends north through the proposed employment lands in North Cambridge and future East Kitchener. At least those would play an important role in ensuring industry has a quick access to the 401, where most trucks would be heading to.

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

I would state however this particular expressway project would rank incredibly low in terms of its usefulness in comparison to other projects that could be undertaken (just for comparison expanding GO service to Guelph and Kitchener or alleviating congestion at the Ambassador bridge). The commuter expressway construction bandwagon of the 1950's is over so why not innovate a better solution for this problem? Why is this so hard to comprehend from a place that claims to be the 'knowledge and innovation' capital of Canada? seems pretty backwards to me.

I don't see how expanding GO-service to Guelph and Kitchener-Waterloo would benefit more people than highway 7 would. The 19,000 people who commute between KW and Guelph is far more than commute to downtown Toronto, all 3 cities combined.

[HAMRetrofit]

Originally Posted by Cambridgite

I am familiar with this concept. I don't think you have any idea what's going on here though. You say that a highway won't attract development around Kitchener or Guelph. But tell that to the residents of New Hamburg and Baden, who have seen their villages take off in the past couple of years because they're close to highway 7 (aka Conestoga Pkwy), 10 minutes west of Kitchener's city limits. Quite far from the 401 I might add. Elmira is doing the same thing, north of Waterloo, on the 86. Breslau, just east of Kitchener, is essentially becoming part of the eastern suburbs right now, and this is without the highway! So what makes you think a new highway in that same direction wouldn't attract development?

I know exactly what is going on there it is the same trend that has occurred across every growing city in North America. How would you describe the type of development that is occurring in these surrounding suburbs? Is is smart growth? or is it tract housing, crumby buisiness parks, and power centers just like every single municipality surrounding Toronto? I know that the highway 7 will attract new development. I just don't regard the type of development that it is going to attract as 'useful'.