Portland - Milwaukie Light Rail

[jaxg8r1]

I'm curious as to why this line is so expensive. $203 million per mile seems like a lot. I know the bridge is going to be $120 ish million, but that still leaves 1.38 billion to get a little over 7 miles through an industrial area.

Striking, especially looking at the cost of the Yellow and Airport/Red line extensions.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by jaxg8r1

I'm curious as to why this line is so expensive. $203 million per mile seems like a lot. I know the bridge is going to be $120 ish million, but that still leaves 1.38 billion to get a little over 7 miles through an industrial area.

Striking, especially looking at the cost of the Yellow and Airport/Red line extensions.

I believe that part of it (only part) is they calculated the debt financing in the project's total cast. The feds have never required that before, so all future LRT dev will seem higher than in the past.

Plus, compared to the original eastside MAX, inflation is much higher. Not to mention the global market for steel and concrete... I doubt China had much influence on those prices in 1982-86!


Boy, wish we had built more back then. Would have saved SO much money compared to today.

[Okstate]

^ Not to mention Trimet is displacing a huge amount of businesses and some residential as well with this expansion. I am not sure how this matches up with previous light rail line installations but it's worth noting.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by Okstate

^ Not to mention Trimet is displacing a huge amount of businesses and some residential as well with this expansion. I am not sure how this matches up with previous light rail line installations but it's worth noting.

True, something like 1,000 homes and businesses, right?

[jaxg8r1]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

I believe that part of it (only part) is they calculated the debt financing in the project's total cast. The feds have never required that before, so all future LRT dev will seem higher than in the past.

Plus, compared to the original eastside MAX, inflation is much higher. Not to mention the global market for steel and concrete... I doubt China had much influence on those prices in 1982-86!


Boy, wish we had built more back then. Would have saved SO much money compared to today.

I figured there was an actual reason that it costs significantly more. I would've guessed it was something like what you mentioned, or perhaps all elevated ROW or something like that.

And your point about inflation is good as well. Honestly, I wish there was some sort of endgame plan for MAX where we could just plan all of the lines that will be needed for the next 50 years, then do some sort of tax levy to fund them all at once (sales tax, or something like that). That way, although it would initially be expensive, eventually it would seem like a huge bargain.

[jaxg8r1]

Originally Posted by Okstate

^ Not to mention Trimet is displacing a huge amount of businesses and some residential as well with this expansion. I am not sure how this matches up with previous light rail line installations but it's worth noting.

Good point. I wonder how much more expensive this line would've been had it been built a couple of years ago at the real estate peak. Seems like building it now (when home values are significantly lower) might end up saving money?

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

True, something like 1,000 homes and businesses, right?

what? where'd you get that number?

if you look in the SDEIS, chapter 3, table 3.1-1, (link), the total is 55 businesses and 2 residences displaced.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

what? where'd you get that number?

if you look in the SDEIS, chapter 3, table 3.1-1, (link), the total is 55 businesses and 2 residences displaced.

My mistake, I don't know where that # came from.

Anyways, according to the Oregonian:

According to TriMet, the entire light-rail project will displace 73 properties - 61 businesses and 12 residential.

The light-rail project also requires 15 partial business acquisitions and 16 partial residential acquisitions in the Milwaukie area, according to a final environmental impact statement released earlier this month.

Out of those 61 businesses, who knows how many people work at them...

[NJD]

...all of those businesses get new customized replacement buildings built for free, get moved for free, and are legally bound to minimize disruption. I think those 61 businesses are getting pretty good deals... The increase in businesses affected and properties displaced comes from UPRR requiring a 50 foot buffer versus the sdeis old 25 foot safety zone. We can thank the LA commuter rail accident for the buffer zone increase.

[maccoinnich]

Originally Posted by jaxg8r1

And your point about inflation is good as well. Honestly, I wish there was some sort of endgame plan for MAX where we could just plan all of the lines that will be needed for the next 50 years, then do some sort of tax levy to fund them all at once (sales tax, or something like that). That way, although it would initially be expensive, eventually it would seem like a huge bargain.

That's what Los Angeles is attempting to do with their 30/10 plan. And I wish them good luck.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by jaxg8r1

I wish there was some sort of endgame plan for MAX where we could just plan all of the lines that will be needed for the next 50 years, then do some sort of tax levy to fund them all at once (sales tax, or something like that). That way, although it would initially be expensive, eventually it would seem like a huge bargain.

Please tell me you didn't say sales tax.

The problem with a sales tax is that most of us don't trust politicians. I'd fight tooth and nail against any form of a sales tax. There are parts of the country where the sales tax exceeds 10%! Regardless of how low an initial sales tax would be, if one were created here, it would become permanent and it would climb. It would climb because our politicians are spineless and gutless. They lack the courage to cut or even balance budgets but they sure do know how to increase budgets, often with money they don't have. Give a politician a buck and he'll find a way to spend it five times and then he'd try to raise taxes to pay off the $4 debt.

Then again, most Americans have thousands of dollars in credit card debt which shows they don't understand basic math either.

[jaxg8r1]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

Please tell me you didn't say sales tax.

The problem with a sales tax is that most of us don't trust politicians. I'd fight tooth and nail against any form of a sales tax. There are parts of the country where the sales tax exceeds 10%! Regardless of how low an initial sales tax would be, if one were created here, it would become permanent and it would climb. It would climb because our politicians are spineless and gutless. They lack the courage to cut or even balance budgets but they sure do know how to increase budgets, often with money they don't have. Give a politician a buck and he'll find a way to spend it five times and then he'd try to raise taxes to pay off the $4 debt.

Then again, most Americans have thousands of dollars in credit card debt which shows they don't understand basic math either.

Oh believe me, I have no preset opinion on what sort of funding source would be ideal. But simply that I wish that we could have a discussion (not we as in us on this forum, but we as Portlanders) about where we want to go with transit long term, identify those sources of funding now and get it built (again, while its still a relative bargain...at least in terms of costs are only going up). Similar in respects to what LA and Denver are doing.

[philopdx]

Here in Portland, we actually try to USE old rail right-of-ways as bike and walking paths or to accommodate new transit. In my hometown of Montgomery, AL, they took a decommissioned freight rail line right-of-way and built a super-Wal-Mart, CVS and Applebee's right over it, nullifying its potential as a commuter or recreation tool.

http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&ie=U...,0.011866&z=17

So while the political battles over transit here in Portland may be somewhat frustrating, take time, in this holiday season, to give thanks to ALMIGHTY CHRIST that you don't live in Montgomery, AL.

Amen.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by philopdx

Here in Portland, we actually try to USE old rail right-of-ways as bike and walking paths or to accommodate new transit. In my hometown of Montgomery, AL, they took a decommissioned freight rail line right-of-way and built a super-Wal-Mart, CVS and Applebee's right over it, nullifying its potential as a commuter or recreation tool.

http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&ie=U...,0.011866&z=17

So while the political battles over transit here in Portland may be somewhat frustrating, take time, in this holiday season, to give thanks to ALMIGHTY CHRIST that you don't live in Montgomery, AL.

Amen.

That's funny because that is the same thing I do when I look back to where I grew up where they are just starting to build a starter line in one city, while the surrounding cities are still leery about expanding it into their cities. Also for the fact that Portland didn't level over 80% of its downtown in the mid 50s-60s.

[RED_PDXer]

Originally Posted by jaxg8r1

Honestly, I wish there was some sort of endgame plan for MAX where we could just plan all of the lines that will be needed for the next 50 years, then do some sort of tax levy to fund them all at once (sales tax, or something like that). That way, although it would initially be expensive, eventually it would seem like a huge bargain.

Metro's High Capacity Transit System Plan has identified which corridors to prioritize for investment and those are probably the closest thing to what you're thinking about. The plan doesn't include a clear funding strategy though..

[zilfondel]

Heard from Bikeportland that the FTA granted Metro $2 million to study transit between Sherwood and Portland, aka Barbur MAX.

http://bikeportland.org/2010/12/21/m...bur-blvd-44882

http://www.fta.dot.gov/news/news_events_12233.html

[MarkDaMan]

Portland-Milwaukie bridge to break ground July 1
POSTED: Friday, January 28, 2011 at 10:30 AM PT
Daily Journal of Commerce
BY: Sue Vorenberg


Construction for the planned Portland-to-Milwaukie light-rail bridge begins July 1, according to a press release from transit agency Trimet. The light-rail line is expected to open in September 2015.

Northwest Geotech Inc. will begin its geotechnical exploration of land around the bridge next week in an effort to gather data for the design of the bridge’s foundation.

The company will drill in the area around the south end of the Eastbank Esplanade to look at subsurface and seismic conditions in the area where the foundation of the new bridge will go, said Tom Ginsback of Northwest Geotech. The company is still waiting for permits to begin drilling, he said.

Part of the esplanade will be shut down to bicyclists during the work period, expected to last from Feb. 2 to Feb. 11, but pedestrians will still be able to use the area.

A map of the detour is available on TriMet’s website (PDF), and signs will be posted in the area.

http://djcoregon.com/news/2011/01/28...ation-studied/

[MarkDaMan]

President Obama wants $200 million for Portland-Milwaukie MAX as TriMet scratches for local funds
Published: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 1:30 PM Updated: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 5:16 PM
Joseph Rose, The Oregonian

President Barack Obama’s budget calls for $200 million in federal funding to go toward the proposed Portland-Milwaukie Light Rail line.

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced the administration’s funding recommendations Tuesday for 10 new transit construction projects around the country, including the newest MAX line.

President Obama’s budget proposal includes a record $3.2 billion in funding for 28 transit construction projects across the U.S. that LaHood says will increase mobility, reduce energy consumption, curb air pollution, and help the nation compete economically.

The president, LaHood said, wants $200 million in the next fiscal year to go toward a full-funding grant for the so-called Orange Line extending 7.3 miles from downtown Portland to Milwaukie over a new bridge.

Construction on the new 1,720-foot bridge bridge, which will be used only by trains, buses, streetcars, pedestrians and bicyclists, is expected to begin this summer. The Orange Line, which TriMet says will better serve the southern transit corridor, downtown and emerging growth areas in east Portland, is scheduled to open in September 2015.

“As President Obama made clear in his State of the Union Address, we must win the future by investing in a modern transportation network that will enable us to out-compete the rest of the world,” LaHood said in a statement. “Portland already boasts a world-class light rail system, and this addition will enhance access to the South Waterfront and destinations across the Willamette River.”

LaHood also noted that the Portland-Milwaukie light rail project has met the requirements of the Federal Transit Administration’s New Starts program, which are in place to ensure a project is a good investment of taxpayer dollars.

Mary Fetsch, a TriMet spokeswoman, said the $200 million is a big chunk of the $745 million that the federal government has promised to construction of the Orange Line (.XLS Spreadsheet) -- but it’s a larger amount than the agency expected this year.

“They’re not writing a check today,” Fetsch said, “but this project has never gotten into the president’s budget this early.”

TriMet is still scratching to find an additional $35.2 million in state and local matching money to cover its share of the most expensive transit project it has ever undertaken. The new MAX line is expected to cost about $1.5 billion, with half coming from federal transportation grants.

Fetsch said the Oregon Transportation Commission is expected to vote Wednesday on a proposal to direct $4.5 million from the Department of Transportation’s flexible funding program into the Orange Line. ODOT is also looking at "various other unobligated pots of transit funds" that would add another $9 million, she said.

Although alternative transportation groups such as the Bicycle Transportation Alliance support the Orange Line, they have expressed concerns that the so-called “Flex” money going into the project might hurt funding for bike and sidewalk projects. The libertarian Cascade Policy Institute, meanwhile, thinks the flexible funds would be better spent on replacing aging buses.

“This is unacceptable,” said John Charles, the institute’s president, in a statement. ”The majority of trips taken on TriMet are on buses; the continued under-investment in bus replacement harms the overall transit mission of TriMet. If the agency had a bus capital crisis last November that was unaddressed by the voters, then clearly that crisis is on-going. The Milwaukie project is a huge distraction from the core requirements of the agency.”

Last fall, Charles and the institute openly opposed a bond measure that would have allowed TriMet to replace at least 150 aging buses. The measure failed at polls.

The president’s budget also includes new funding for rail and bus rapid transit projects in Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Michigan, Texas, Utah and in Washington. The budget also provides $835.4 million for the continued funding of seven additional rail transit projects already operational or under construction in New York, Dallas, Salt Lake City, Seattle, and Northern Virginia.

LaHood said the beleaguered Columbia River Crossing might also "become ready" for part of $400 million for unspecified transit projects in the president's budget.


-- Joseph Rose; Twitter, pdxcommute

http://blog.oregonlive.com/portland_...et_sets_a.html

[bvpcvm]

I don't understand why this is the 'orange' line. I know it's shown that way on the maps, but by assigning it a new color, it implies that trains will go from Milwaukie to downtown and then turn around - and that Yellow and Green line trains will also go to downtown and turn around. That wouldn't do much for cross-town travelers and I can't imagine it's really more efficient. I'm hoping that showing it as orange on the maps doesn't really mean anything (when they were building the westside blue line - there weren't any line colors then - it was also marked on maps as orange).

[MarkDaMan]

I still don't understand why we use colors instead of numbers. I heard the streetcar was going to use colors like, Aqua and Tangerine to differentiate lines.