Portland Streetcar System

[philopdx]

I'm torn on this one. I've worked downtown for almost five years and it took me about a month to figure out I could beat the streetcar just by walking. So when viewed purely as a mode of transportation, it has definite limitations.

That being said, there is an "X-factor" attached to the streetcar that a bus line just doesn't have. Bus routes can change, but tracks can't be torn out so easily. Also, I don't see a bus line as being such a robust catalyst for growth and density that the streetcar has been.

I think most of my criticisms of the streetcar would be mollified if Trimet treated it a little more like MAX. Higher frequencies, with an emphasis on priority signaling especially.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by philopdx

I've worked downtown for almost five years and it took me about a month to figure out I could beat the streetcar just by walking.

I think this is a myth. Yes, there are situations where it's faster to walk: when it's not arriving for another 10 minutes, or when you're just going a few blocks. But if I'm downtown and want to go to NW, it's definitely faster to ride the streetcar. Even if I just want to go a few blocks but one's on its way, it's also usually faster to catch the streetcar (unless you're crossing Burnside, where it gets stuck in traffic).

[Downtown_Gal]

It might be technically faster to walk sometimes, but if I'm carrying heavy groceries, it's raining or I'm in heels that pinch, I usually opt to wait for the streetcar anyway.

[Eco_jt]

I've always only used streetcar if it happens to be going by...I always glance at the time its going to take for it to get to the stop...if its more than 5 minutes before it'll come...I can beat it by walking. If not, then it will pass along the way.

But I only think this is true if you are trying to go 10-20 blocks.

[maccoinnich]

The plot thickens. Taken today:

[philopdx]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

I think this is a myth. Yes, there are situations where it's faster to walk: when it's not arriving for another 10 minutes, or when you're just going a few blocks. But if I'm downtown and want to go to NW, it's definitely faster to ride the streetcar. Even if I just want to go a few blocks but one's on its way, it's also usually faster to catch the streetcar (unless you're crossing Burnside, where it gets stuck in traffic).

It's not a myth, this is really my experience. I've tried over and over and over again to ride the streetcar, and 95% of the time over the past four years, if the status says more than 4 minutes to the next car, I can beat it if I'm walking 10 blocks. If it says car arriving in 8 or more minutes, I can beat it if I'm walking 20 blocks.

I still support the streetcar for a number of reasons, actually!

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by philopdx

It's not a myth, this is really my experience.

I fall on the "myth" side of this debate. I live a block off the streetcar and I ride it daily. I'm a very fast walker and I've timed it out to figure out when I save time by waiting for the streetcar and when it's faster to walk rather than wait and ride. If I'm headed to the library and I see that it's a 3 minute wait or longer, it's faster to walk - but that's because the streetcar isn't here yet and I'm not even a 5 minute walk away from my destination.

The only time it's sometimes faster to walk is in the Pearl during rush hour when traffic is completely backed up. And that's assuming traffic doesn't open up. At that point, it'd be faster to walk than drive a car through that mess, but it doesn't mean cars are inherently slow, right?

I'm not saying the streetcar is faster than a bus. Of course it's not. It has more stops, takes longer to speed up and slow down, and its loading times are longer because it has more people entering and exiting. But that being said, if I see the streetcar at my stop near the park blocks, there's no way I'm going to walk to Burnside faster than it can get there.

[zilfondel]

http://wweek.com/portland/article-18...rett_walk.html

This guy runs a blog, Human Transit

Hotseat: Jarrett Walker
A Portland transit expert says we shouldn’t fall in love with trains when buses will do.

Can you give an example?
The Portland Streetcar has done a lot of good for the Pearl District, but it was introduced as a development tool, and as it was presented, it was always very clear that the emotional attraction of the vehicle itself was an important part of why we should build it.

Why should we build a streetcar instead of just running a really good bus service? We’re moving into a much leaner time. We may start having different conversations about how important it is to have emotionally appealing vehicles, as opposed to creating a system that maximizes people’s personal freedom.

Now, I am not anti-streetcar, but I do kind of agree with some of what he says. However, particularly in this recession, there is a risk that if we build expensive transit service that does not have high ridership, then there will likely be a public backlash against governmental spending and Trimet itself. Not just coming from the tea party, but from more liberal quarters. And if political support for transit dries up, then that can really hurt mass transit. Plus, wasting money on transit lines that don't get ridership will hurt Trimet even more, as they won't collect as much fare revenue to run the system, and they may have to dirvert money from existing services that do see ridership to prop up low-ridership expensive routes, much like what we've seen with bus service being slashed system-wide by Trimet in recent years. Ridership on Trimet is already flat over the past 10 years... dropping 100s of millions on transit lines that will see only a small number of riders while axing our bus service is foolish at best, particularly in a regional transit organization like Trimet.

http://trimet.org/mailforms/budgetchoices

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/i...results_o.html

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...nd_to_lak.html

Seattle is actually having an even worse time than we are - despite overwhelming political support for LINK and the SLUT, Ridership on Seattle's link is extremely low (less than 30,000 per day), and their SLUT gets ~1/6 - 1/10 the ridership of our streetcar! Our system is of course more mature, but expansions should dramatically increase ridership, and we should be tapping into the main transit markets: SE & NE Portland, where distances people are traveling are lower, density is higher, and there are fewer freeways to compete.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by philopdx

It's not a myth, this is really my experience. I've tried over and over and over again to ride the streetcar, and 95% of the time over the past four years, if the status says more than 4 minutes to the next car, I can beat it if I'm walking 10 blocks. If it says car arriving in 8 or more minutes, I can beat it if I'm walking 20 blocks.

I still support the streetcar for a number of reasons, actually!

Sure, for going 10 blocks, which only takes 10 minutes to walk.

Anyways, we can use Google Maps to come to a conclusion!
Compare these trips:

Streetcar: http://goo.gl/wI5fo - 27 mins

Walking: http://goo.gl/Y8YfC - 39 mins

Of course, if your starting point & destination does not lie almost on the streetcar line, then walking may be faster. Also, if you need to wait more than 12 minutes in the example above, its a wash.

Ironically, the bus was faster:
Bus: http://goo.gl/o8Uj1 - 24 mins


My conclusion: both of you are right!

[rsbear]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

[url] Ridership on Trimet is already flat over the past 10 years... dropping 100s of millions on transit lines thmat will see only a small number of riders while axing our bus service is foolish at best, particularly in a regional transit organization like Trimet.

Greetings. Enjoying the Streetcar discussion and especially appreciate the Loop project pictures. The comment, above, made me curious to see how ridership has changed over the past ten years. Trimet's site provides a table of ridership back to 1999:

http://www.trimet.org/pdfs/publications/trimetridership.pdf

FY2001 Total Boarding Rides - 86,728,756

FY2011 Total Boarding Rides - 101,066,062

And just because it's available - FY99 Total Boarding Rides - 76,989,574

Neither stat includes Streetcar ridership, since Trimet does not operate the Portland Streetcar.

The table breaks out bus, MAX, WES, and LIFT/Cab stats. Check it out - pretty interesting.

Happy and safe holidays to all.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

The plot thickens. Taken today:

Someone on the Streetcar CAC explained that the "To OMSI" signs were likely a error on the Construction Docs and that the Eastside Streetcar is slated to go all the way to PSU when they start service next year. No transfer in the Pearl required unless you're going to NW 23rd.

[RED_PDXer]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

I mean no offense, but based on that, I'm guessing that you rarely ride the streetcar and probably don't live in a neighborhood it passes through. You also either don't work in a neighborhood it passes through, or (if you do) you're headed straight for your car to get to and from work. Thus, the streetcar looks like it's just a bus on rails, right?

I don't follow your comment at all.. I used to live a block from the streetcar and used it regularly to get to NW 23rd area. There's not a bus that provides that service, without a transfer. I also don't own a car, so I guess your assumptions are totally incorrect.

[2oh1]

You're right. And I'm shocked.

[MarkDaMan]

Thank GOD! Now can we focus on a Hawthorne or other inner east side lines so we can make better use of the loop?

Lake Oswego councilor pulls streetcar support
Portland Business Journal by Suzanne Stevens, Web editor
Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2012, 6:44am PST - Last Modified: Wednesday, January 11, 2012, 7:02am PST
Suzanne Stevens Web editor - Portland Business Journal

The effort to build a Portland to Lake Oswego streetcar line may be derailed now that a Lake Oswego City Councilor has pulled his support.

As the Oregonian reports, Councilor Bill Tierney announced at the Lake Oswego City Council meeting Tuesday that he felt there were more pressing needs the city should focus on than the controversial project.

It was a reversal for Tierney, who in April was one of four councilors to narrowly support moving forward in exploring a streetcar line. The effort lost some steam two months later, however, when Lake Oswego Mayor Jack Hoffman asked the Clackamas County Commission to defer its conditional support for a streetcar until criticism about the $400 million project could be addressed.

Backers of the line had touted its economic development potential. As the Business Journal reported previously, the proposed $56.1 million Lake Oswego Foothills development hinged on its fate. That project may now be in doubt.

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/...ana=e_ptl_rdup

[tworivers]

^^^ I have to admit that I had a similar response. If Lake O's elected representatives are going to shoot it down, re-direct the effort and funding to central city neighborhoods immediately.

[MarkDaMan]

"The decades-old proposed Lake Oswego streetcar is the last line that pre-dates Portland's 2009 Streetcar Master plan," Adams said in a statement. "With it now suspended, Portland can turn our complete attention to closing the loop and expanding streetcar north and east from downtown."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...t_lost_in.html

[2oh1]

YAY. It's about time they got back to priorities. L.O. should never have been a priority. They can't get back any of the time, money and effort wasted on that, but at least they can stop wasting any more.

[Eco_jt]

I have to say that I am glad, and I hope the Portland streetcar can focus on expanding in Portland. =)

---------------------
“The decades-old proposed Lake Oswego streetcar is the last line that pre-dates Portland’s 2009 streetcar master plan,” Adams says. “With it now suspended, Portland can turn our complete attention to closing the loop and expanding streetcar north and east from downtown.”

Adams keeps local streetcar plan on track after LO balks

[Shilo Rune 96]

Now the rumor is a streetcar to John's Landing only... and maybe over the Sellwood bridge. Supposedly $70 million.

[tworivers]

This is slightly off-topic, yet relevant.

If Portland's suburbs continue the current trend of saying "no" to the city's expanding rail transit system (Clackamas County and Milwaukie MAX, potentially; LO and streetcar) and "no" to paying their fair share for projects of regional importance (Sellwood bridge), I think Portland should seriously consider methods of implementing a charge for anyone driving an SOV into the city proper. Exactly *how* this could happen, I'm not sure, but it would go a long way towards putting these ignorant adult children in their place. It also might have the secondary effect of encouraging suburban commuters to move closer to central-city places of work, in addition to creating a new source of revenue. The rest of them can putter around in their suburban shitholes all they want -- but if they want to venture into the city in their cars, they're going to have to show some respect and contribute some money to our coffers.