Portland Streetcar System - Page 5

zilfondel · #81 Posted: **Aug 22, 2008, 6:00 PM**

Streetcar System Plan

http://www.portlandonline.com/transp...ex.cfm?c=46134

alexjon · #82 Posted: **Aug 22, 2008, 6:07 PM**

Is there a way to get down that large bluff past Reed to get to the Milwaukie MAX from Woodstock? I can't think of any

I biffed on Steele a few times coming down that hill behind the Winston apartments and I've whacked into things a few times... very steep.

Or I suck at riding bikes. One of the two.

EDIT: Looking at maps, it seems that there isn't a way around that area and so a streetcar probably can't get up and down over there.

urbanlife · #83 Posted: **Aug 22, 2008, 10:25 PM**

I am so hoping we end up with an extensive streetcar system while Adams is in office.

Sekkle · #84 Posted: **Aug 23, 2008, 2:18 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJD

Streetcar engineers given a green light

...
“We’re hoping a new administration will pump money into transit.”
...

One more reason to hope the new administration doesn't involve John McCain. Here's an interesting/troubling article from Light Rail Now about John McCain's anti-rail...ness...

http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_n...m#USA_20080711

joeplayer1989 · #85 Posted: **Aug 23, 2008, 4:54 AM**

that man is worse than bush

philopdx · #86 Posted: **Aug 23, 2008, 8:21 PM**

Let's hope his administration doesn't think of transit as the "rail to nowhere"...

alexjon · #87 Posted: **Aug 27, 2008, 5:28 PM**

After slugging through reams of threads in the Texas/Southcentral forum, I've had to stop and question what the animosity towards streetcars from non-residents stems from. Is it jealousy? Is it near-sightedness? I can't tell.

As far as I have seen and believe, the Streetcar is better than a bus and if you can afford it, absolutely worth it for local service. Am I wrong in my approach to the arguments? I don't know anymore. I think the attitude that would throw the baby out with the bathwater on streetcars is the very same that drives people like McCain to demand supernatural results from all rail.

JordanL · #88 Posted: **Aug 27, 2008, 9:36 PM**

The issue most people have is that a bus can run more frequently, is faster, is easier to change in case of future development, and can be updated easier.

Light rail is not the same thing as a streetcar and visa versa. A lot of people who support light rail don't support a streetcar.

alexjon · #89 Posted: **Aug 27, 2008, 9:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JordanL

The issue most people have is that a bus can run more frequently, is faster, is easier to change in case of future development, and can be updated easier.

Light rail is not the same thing as a streetcar and visa versa. A lot of people who support light rail don't support a streetcar.

Hasn't the Pearl District basically proved a lot of people wrong? Or are people still toting that same old saw of "it's public subsidy that drove development"?

And can you give me detailed stats on those "lot[s] of people"? Still finding it hard to believe that so many people think buses are magic.

JordanL · #90 Posted: **Aug 27, 2008, 10:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexjon

Hasn't the Pearl District basically proved a lot of people wrong? Or are people still toting that same old saw of "it's public subsidy that drove development"?

And can you give me detailed stats on those "lot[s] of people"? Still finding it hard to believe that so many people think buses are magic.

Well for the first point, the Pearl was heavy into development and investment long before the streetcar was going anywhere, and a lot of Pearl development has been outside of the streetcar corridor.

But to your second point... I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Busses move more people, and they move them faster as well. Busses are changeable and ungradeable while streetcar... not so much.

Those are not opinions, those are facts upon which the opinions that a streetcar is a waste of money are based.

I would prefer they expand the busses and then invest in a Powell Blvd MAX line, instead of spending money on a streetcar that will cost well over $10,000 per passenger the year if finally gets completed.

anp · #91 Posted: **Aug 27, 2008, 10:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JordanL

The issue most people have is that a bus can run more frequently, is faster, is easier to change in case of future development, and can be updated easier.

OK, I can perhaps see the argument that buses allow more flexibility, but the claim that buses are faster and can run more frequently than streetcars sounds spurious to me. Please explain why you think buses are faster and can run more frequently when they are subject to many of the same limitations as a streetcar (driving in traffic on city streets, frequent stops, missing traffic lights because of stops). As someone who's ridden buses here, I can tell you they're not very fast when driving through heavily-populated areas.

alexjon · #92 Posted: **Aug 27, 2008, 10:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JordanL

Well for the first point, the Pearl was heavy into development and investment long before the streetcar was going anywhere, and a lot of Pearl development has been outside of the streetcar corridor.

But to your second point... I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Busses move more people, and they move them faster as well. Busses are changeable and ungradeable while streetcar... not so much.

Those are not opinions, those are facts upon which the opinions that a streetcar is a waste of money are based.

I would prefer they expand the busses and then invest in a Powell Blvd MAX line, instead of spending money on a streetcar that will cost well over $10,000 per passenger the year if finally gets completed.

Why not put in BRT instead of a Powell Blvd MAX? It's cheaper and with true dedicated lanes can be just as fast, especially considering how short blocks are in Portland.

PacificNW · #93 Posted: **Aug 27, 2008, 11:34 PM**

So, what are the buses, or BRT, going to use for fuel? Electricity, gas, diesel, hydrogen, natural gas, bio, or flex? What is the carbon footprint of each of these options?

alexjon · #94 Posted: **Aug 27, 2008, 11:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by PacificNW

So, what are the buses, or BRT, going to use for fuel? Electricity, gas, diesel, hydrogen, natural gas, bio, or flex? What is the carbon footprint of each of these options?

It doesn't cost too much to add in an electric system for BRT. Remember, cities like Seattle have trolleybuses!

bvpcvm · #95 Posted: **Aug 28, 2008, 12:42 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JordanL

Well for the first point, the Pearl was heavy into development and investment long before the streetcar was going anywhere, and a lot of Pearl development has been outside of the streetcar corridor.

what? where is this "Pearl development" that's "outside of the streetcar corridor"? the whole Pearl is within a couple blocks (3 at most, if you count 14th-11th) of the streetcar. and the pearl doesn't extend any further eastward than the n park blocks, so you can't point to development (what little there is) in old town and use that as an example of development that would have happened anyway w/o streetcar.

(i agree w/you about powell max tho)

PacificNW · #96 Posted: **Aug 28, 2008, 1:44 AM**

⬆ I remember Seattle and their "trolley buses" very well. I rode #43 the 20+ years I lived in Seattle.

twofiftyfive · #97 Posted: **Aug 28, 2008, 2:07 AM**

Buses are faster than the streetcar because they can go around things that are in their way, and they can let people on and off without being pulled all the way up to the end of the platform. The streetcar combines the worst of both worlds--it's fixed rail like MAX, but it rides in traffic like buses. The only thing I like about the streetcar is that it runs on electricity.

I do support MAX, though.

alexjon · #98 Posted: **Aug 28, 2008, 2:17 AM**

Oh, thank god I'm not living in the suburbs-- I'd be freaked out by the convenience railfans

pdxman · #99 Posted: **Aug 28, 2008, 3:24 AM**

My only problem with the streetcar has to do with its implementation--too many stops! I'd be more than willing to lose the stop I use if it meant the system as a whole could be faster. Cut/condense some stops and then the streetcar could be an effective commuter tool. If its accessibility you crave then buses are the answer; they can start and stop faster and as mentioned above they can maneuver around obstacles a lot easier. Buses also don't have to stop at every station/stop like the streetcar (hence my plead to cut some stops). And I do ride the streetcar almost daily, this is just my opinion from my observations.

alexjon · #**100** Posted: **Aug 28, 2008, 3:45 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdxman

My only problem with the streetcar has to do with its implementation--too many stops! I'd be more than willing to lose the stop I use if it meant the system as a whole could be faster. Cut/condense some stops and then the streetcar could be an effective commuter tool. If its accessibility you crave then buses are the answer; they can start and stop faster and as mentioned above they can maneuver around obstacles a lot easier. Buses also don't have to stop at every station/stop like the streetcar (hence my plead to cut some stops). And I do ride the streetcar almost daily, this is just my opinion from my observations.

Since when do streetcars make unrequested stops at stations without passengers there?

Of course, if I could cut any stop, I'd get rid of the 10th and Alder stop in a heartbeat!