The Retail Thread

[redbeard]

Originally Posted by Shilo Rune 96

I bet they close at 7:00 PM. ;p

From the oregonian article on it's opening:

"The Pearl District Starbucks will open daily at 5 a.m. and close at 11 p.m. on all nights but Fridays and Saturdays, when it will close at midnight."

[Shilo Rune 96]

Originally Posted by redbeard

From the oregonian article on it's opening:

"The Pearl District Starbucks will open daily at 5 a.m. and close at 11 p.m. on all nights but Fridays and Saturdays, when it will close at midnight."

Osnap!

[bvpcvm]

http://blog.oregonlive.com/business_...to_update.html

Pioneer Place looks to update food court into foodie heaven

Published: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 9:45 PM
Updated: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 10:01 PM
By Laura Gunderson, The Oregonian

For many shoppers, a trip to the mall isn't complete without a pile of food-court fries, a greasy bowl of kung pao chicken or a corn dog from that kid in a funny hat.

But Pioneer Place may soon ditch the dreary mall provisions for more Portland-esque gourmet and locally made fare such as fresh-baked breads, cured meats, cheeses, chocolates and beer.

The idea is to create a unique marketplace within the mall, which has struggled with an identity crisis since it opened two decades ago.

... follow link for more

[scleeb]

Bottom line, the gut-wagons (read 'food-carts") are killing the PP food court. Most people have drawn the conclusion that it's better to pay a fair price for creative local food than overpay for homogenized crap. Although some of the food cart fare is crap too.
On a separate note, the city has to do something to moderate the proliferation of food-carts. It's getting out out hand. The olfactory experience of some Downtown Portland sidewalks is now reminiscent of Bangkok bazaar. If the city can regulate the number of Taxis, it can regulate the number of food-carts.

[cab]

I love the bizarre like effect the food carts bring to DT sidewalks. There is LIFE. US cities have been missing that controlled chaos. The way the cart pods are developing are fantastic example of actual real capitalism (not that gambling crap you see on CNBC ). As long as carts can make a living why limit the number?

[scleeb]

Originally Posted by cab

I love the bizarre like effect the food carts bring to DT sidewalks. There is LIFE. US cities have been missing that controlled chaos. The way the cart pods are developing are fantastic example of actual real capitalism (not that gambling crap you see on CNBC ). As long as carts can make a living why limit the number?

The same reason you limit the number of taxi permits, to limit over-saturation. Some streets in DT Portland are nearly impassable during the noon-hour. Unrestrained growth (in any industry) will lead to negative consequences. The prime reason Portland instituted an urban growth boundary was to restrain the negative impacts of growth. I say grandfather every-food cart operator in town and issue them a "transferable" permit. Then issue supplemental permits to new operators in a more thoughtful manner. I like the controlled chaos too, I just want to rein it in a little bit.

[2oh1]

I don't want to rein in food carts at all. The positive effect overwhelmingly outweighs any negative effect.

The issue here isn't that we have too many food carts. The issue is a lack of reason to go to the Pioneer Place food court. Pioneer Place isn't exactly a Spencer Gifts type of mall, which means the typical stuck in suburbia mall-food-court approach isn't going to be as successful. Why would it?

Instead of asking why people aren't eating there, ask who the potential customer is and why that person would want to eat there? What's the draw? What's the appeal? It certainly isn't the atmosphere. And it isn't the food.

With so many better options, is the answer for the Pioneer Place food court REALLY to limit the number of better options? What a sad way of thinking.

[65MAX]

I guess I'm not seeing the negative aspects. I don't consider crowded sidewalks and exotic smells from foodcarts to be negatives, They're a sign of vitality and diversity and the carts are clearly popular alternatives to typical fast food fare.

As long as they're inspected regularly and trash doesn't accumulate, let there be as many as the market will support. It's hard to argue that the market will become oversaturated because the underperforming carts will simply go out of business.

[tworivers]

Speaking of food carts, you guys see this?

Food carts gone; Chinatown lot owner fights back
Wright warns he’ll complain about city’s other ‘illegal’ carts
By Peter Korn
The Portland Tribune, Jun 23, 2011

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

I guess I'm not seeing the negative aspects. I don't consider crowded sidewalks and exotic smells from foodcarts to be negatives, They're a sign of vitality and diversity and....

...and yes, yes yes. I agree completely. While the food carts may, in fact, be giving people better options than the Pioneer Place food court, they actually help Pioneer Place as a whole. Anything that helps to make downtown a more fun, vibrant, diverse and active place helps the entire downtown business community.

This can't really be compared to limiting the number of taxis. A cab is about getting to a destination. Food is a destination. A cab is a means. Food is an ends. The Pioneer Place food court isn't a compelling destination.

Perhaps Pioneer Place wouldn't have as many store vacancies as it does if we limited the number of stores throughout the rest of downtown Portland. To me, that makes about as much sense as limiting the number of food options elsewhere in order to help the Pioneer Place food court.

[scleeb]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

...and yes, yes yes. I agree completely. While the food carts may, in fact, be giving people better options than the Pioneer Place food court, they actually help Pioneer Place as a whole. Anything that helps to make downtown a more fun, vibrant, diverse and active place helps the entire downtown business community.

This can't really be compared to limiting the number of taxis. A cab is about getting to a destination. Food is a destination. A cab is a means. Food is an ends. The Pioneer Place food court isn't a compelling destination.

Perhaps Pioneer Place wouldn't have as many store vacancies as it does if we limited the number of stores throughout the rest of downtown Portland. To me, that makes about as much sense as limiting the number of food options elsewhere in order to help the Pioneer Place food court.

Actually, regulating food carts and taxis is exactly the same thing. Both ideas are designed to regulate capacity and control "fleet" size. Believe me, its hard for me to say this because I really believe in free-markets and open competition. However, allowing the "free-market" to achieve food cart equilibrium would likely result in a higher concentration of carts than most people would prefer. Also, you should consider the collateral effects. Most of us on this forum bemoan the high number of vacant storefronts in Downtown Portland. That problem will only increase as additional food carts place more competitive pressure on CBD restaurants. Especially those restaurants offering cheap to moderately priced fare.

I guess what I am saying is, I wish we would cap what we have and call it good. It almost seems like we are in a "cart" bubble, a la the dot com bubble.

[65MAX]

If it really is a "bubble", then some of the less successful carts will go under. But arbitrarily restricting the number of carts is like restricting the number of shops or restaurants or any other business that provides goods. That doesn't make any sense.

[scleeb]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

If it really is a "bubble", then some of the less successful carts will go under. But arbitrarily restricting the number of carts is like restricting the number of shops or restaurants or any other business that provides goods. That doesn't make any sense.

What happens after a bubble... misery. Why let things get out of hand and watch people piss there life savings away on a fools errand.

Also, I hate breaking the news to ya, but restricting businesses from providing goods and services is as American as apple pie. This country has restricted and regulated business since 1787. Specifically, Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 of the US Constitution.

[philopdx]

And what, precisely, is wrong with a Bangkok bazaar? As long as we don't trigger any seizures in olfactory epileptics, no harm, no foul.

I saw we invoke a variation of Godwin's law here. Rather than rendering a healthy discussion needlessly earnest with comparisons to Nazis, let's invoke a new law that does the same for citing specific articles of the constitution to validate ideological stands on... taco trucks.

/thread enjoyment

[2oh1]

This is silly. Limiting the number of food carts doesn't solve the problem of Pioneer Place not offering a compelling reason to eat there.

[scleeb]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

This is silly. Limiting the number of food carts doesn't solve the problem of Pioneer Place not offering a compelling reason to eat there.

Silly? I would say obsessive... I never really cared about the Pioneer Place food court topic. I've just been spoiling for a reason to gripe about food carts. In case you haven't noticed, I kinda hate them. BTW, I am really sensitive to strong smells.

[scleeb]

deleted post

[scleeb]

Originally Posted by philopdx

I saw we invoke a variation of Godwin's law here. Rather than rendering a healthy discussion needlessly earnest with comparisons to Nazis, let's invoke a new law that does the same for citing specific articles of the constitution to validate ideological stands on... taco trucks.

/thread enjoyment

What are you talking about man? Do you feel compelled to launch a pithy rejoinder to every post you disagree with, or is it just something about me? Relax why don't ya.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by scleeb

What happens after a bubble... misery. Why let things get out of hand and watch people piss there life savings away on a fools errand.

Also, I hate breaking the news to ya, but restricting businesses from providing goods and services is as American as apple pie. This country has restricted and regulated business since 1787. Specifically, Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 of the US Constitution.

There's a difference between regulating businesses (of course they should be regulated) and restricting the number of entrepeneurs who want to enter the marketplace. You're proposing the latter.

And what exactly is the optimum number of food carts that should be allowed? Which bureaucratic agency is going to make that determination? Should we also limit the number of coffee shops in the city, since there's already way too many of those? Or the number of convenience stores, because they're prime targets for robberies? Sorry, I still say that doesn't make sense.

[scleeb]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

There's a difference between regulating businesses (of course they should be regulated) and restricting the number of entrepeneurs who want to enter the marketplace. You're proposing the latter.

And what exactly is the optimum number of food carts that should be allowed? Which bureaucratic agency is going to make that determination? Should we also limit the number of coffee shops in the city, since there's already way too many of those? Or the number of convenience stores, because they're prime targets for robberies? Sorry, I still say that doesn't make sense.

What is the optimum number of food carts? In my opinion, less than we currently have. As for limiting the number of coffee shops and convenience stores, if they had wheels and were deemed "mobile," then yes, I would argue they should be regulated. Food carts are not permanent structures with real property protections, they are glorified "taxis" w/ deep fryers. Also, governments do regulate/limit businesses they deem nuisances of not in the public interest. That's why you don't see liquor stores and gun shops on every corner of Portland. As for making sense... I do. There are plenty of Portlanders that dislike the food carts madness. I know a majority of people like the carts, but a sizable minority don't. I will make a prediction, sometime within the next 24 months, some legislative attempt will be made to place additional regulations on food carts to control further growth.