The Retail Thread

[Okstate]

^ Even with that (unimpressive) list... Wa. Square STILL has more storefront entrances. I would hardly consider Tiffany, Mac Grill, or Saks to be in the same league as the actual stores in the "mall". What restaurant in the food court has direct access? All i can think of is the entrance where you descend an escalator...which is even less "in your face" from the street than that of the other stores.

[bvpcvm]

^ no kidding, the food court doesn't open up onto the street! as okstate said, tiffany/macaroni grill and saks, while technically part of the whole development, aren't located in the mall to begin with. others? i'm drawing a blank on coach, but j. jill - yes, it has an entrance, but you enter into the back of the store. the store faces the mall. you can tell that they were stuck with an entrance and couldn't close it off entirely, but definitely wanted to. no, pioneer place is definitely walled off from the city.

[downtownpdx]

I agree it would be ideal to open up some of the storefronts of Pioneer Place -- it feels especially walled-off in the rotunda block on the east side.

But the idea of a mall is ok with me just because I think it serves the purpose of critical mass. Grouping dozens of retailers together on a couple blocks draws people to the center of downtown, who walk the streets and bring vitality to the surrounding area.

I have a hard time imagining, (as much as I would like to see this), all the shops of Pioneer Place spread out across downtown. Much of the existing streetside retail probably exists simply because of the draw of Pioneer Place. It acts like kind of an anchor, and then the spill-over activity makes the nearby streets more attractive. ...I wonder who'll move into the former Shoe Pavilion space? It's a weird spot, huge and mostly underground.

[PacificNW]

↑ Maybe one of the national "theme" cafe's like the "Rainforest Cafe".....Food isn't great but it does bring in the crowds and it doesn't need storefront windows for people and their kids to find it.......

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by Okstate

^ Even with that (unimpressive) list... Wa. Square STILL has more storefront entrances. I would hardly consider Tiffany, Mac Grill, or Saks to be in the same league as the actual stores in the "mall". What restaurant in the food court has direct access? All i can think of is the entrance where you descend an escalator...which is even less "in your face" from the street than that of the other stores.

Wasn't trying to impress anyone. BVPCVM couldn't think of a single store that opened onto the sidewalk. I was just listing the ones that do. And yes, Tiffany and MacGrill, while part of Pioneer Place, aren't directly connected to the mall, but both Saks most definitely are. Also, the sidewalk entrance to the food court at Fifth and Taylor is used by thousands of people every day (including myself). I'm not sure about "in your face", but it's absolutely well-designed and heavily used.

[Okstate]

I hope its OK if I consider that list unimpressive no matter your intention upon posting the info.

[downtownpdx]

Originally Posted by PacificNW

↑ Maybe one of the national "theme" cafe's like the "Rainforest Cafe".....Food isn't great but it does bring in the crowds and it doesn't need storefront windows for people and their kids to find it.......

Right -- or a Cheesecake Factory or something? If it's gonna be a chain it might as well draw the crowds. I don't think Shoe Pavilion really hit the mark in that category.

I like Nordstrom Rack's new(ish) digs but I miss the old location a bit, just b/c now that corner lacks the intensity it once had. The Rack pulls in a ton of people, and there was also an adjacent high-end shoe store ... then they just tore out the wall, and made it into one huge space that now sits empty. I know something will move in before too long, but I really like a bunch of smaller retail spaces over the huge ones that take up so much street frontage when they're vacant.

The new Mercantile shop at Alder and Park, as attractive as it is, did the same thing -- tore out a couple retail spots to make room for a big one. Just diminishes the character and variety of downtown's streetscape a bit, I think, but I realize many retailers need larger spaces to be viable.

BTW what the hell is keeping H&M from moving in, (despite the crap economy?) There are several perfectly good spots waiting for them...

[bvpcvm]

rainforest cafe... i sincerely hope you're kidding. same goes for cheesecake factory. the faux-stucco and robotic service are the last thing i want to see downtown.

on the other hand - i guess this is an instance of "my fascist retail chain is cooler than yours" - i'd love to see H&M in town. after several visits to H&M in SFO i've found myself regularly checking their facebook page for an announcement of a store here. it can't be long - there are already 3 in seattle...

[downtownpdx]

^^^ I agree, I wouldn't be too excited about either of those in Portland... just saying if it's gonna be a chain it oughta be something that draws foot traffic. But I honestly don't wanna see a Las-Vegasization of downtown.

Not to beat a dead horse, but seriously why THREE H&M's in Seattle and not one here??? I know of the Southcenter and downtown stores, but not the third. I have a feeling they would do ok here.

[pdxman]

I too am looking forward to the day when H&M opens in portland-whenever that may be...That corner spot, which downtownpdx mentioned, would be great as well as the space next to it thats wedged between ross and the corner. To me that space would be perfect with its 2 story layout and potential for a broadway-esque sign out front.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by Okstate

I hope its OK if I consider that list unimpressive no matter your intention upon posting the info.

Perfectly OK, Ok(state). 'Nuff said.

[PacificNW]

Geez,....the Rainforest Cafe is great for the kids to see and visit even though their food is crap. Cheesecake factory is good for the "home cooking portions" and attracts people visiting from out of town. Again, their food isn't anything special. I realize these type of places don't appeal to "the finer, acquired tastes" of those living in the city but, I feel, the city can offer something for everyone to make it a healthy, thriving, and attractive place to visit for all tastes and lifestyles. These types of places, like H & M, etc. bring people to downtown. If you guys don't want national chains downtown maybe Nordstrom, Saks and Macy's shouldn't be there either...and then think what kind of downtown Portland would be. IMO, there are many "local" options for the choosing which offer uniqueness to the downtown. BTW, the other H & M in Seattle is at University Village.

[2oh1]

PacificNW: I couldn't agree more.

I don't go to Macaroni Grill, but I'm glad it's there and doing well. If a Cheesecake Factory opened downtown, I would be happy to have it around. The more we can bring people TO downtown, the more money those people will bring with them. If we only cater to those of us who live downtown, we discourage future businesses we'd prefer by limiting the amount of money flowing in. People who eat at Cheesecake Factory are likely to be shoppers.

I really hope that when H&M comes to Portland, they choose a space downtown rather than in a mall. Love them or hate them, they're a destination for shoppers. I'd rather see them bring shoppers into downtown than help pull Portlanders out to the burbs.

The old Famous Footwear spot would be perfect for an H&M.

[Okstate]

I woulnd't mind having a Flemings Steakhouse while we're on the subject of chains.

Off topic- When does a "chain" become unpopular by Oregon standards. I mean if Stumptown started branching out exclusively to Oregon, Idaho, and Washington, would all the (locals) stop their patronage immediately? Or if the corporate office is homebased out of Oregon then "chains" aren't bad anymore???

[PacificNW]

↑ Good question... I think a mix of national and local is a good thing.

[rsbear]

Originally Posted by Okstate

Off topic- When does a "chain" become unpopular by Oregon standards. I mean if Stumptown started branching out exclusively to Oregon, Idaho, and Washington, would all the (locals) stop their patronage immediately? Or if the corporate office is homebased out of Oregon then "chains" aren't bad anymore???

No one on this forum can possibly answer this question because no one here can speak for all Oregonian's as to their "standards". But you'll likely get a number of individual responses by folks reporting their standards.

[Okstate]

^ You're telling me there is no medium by which all Oregonians tune into to better gauge one another? How disappointing. There is always a very simple, unscientific monitor ingrained into my head that tells me what will or will not fly in Oklahoma...call it my Okie-gauge. Then again, the Oregonian set comes with a lot more pieces than my Okie folk.

For example-

Would Okies like the idea of a Bass Pro Shop being enticed by TIF for urban renewal in OKC?

Okie-Gauge intuition says: Sounds great, lets get this project going yesterday

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by Okstate

I woulnd't mind having a Flemings Steakhouse while we're on the subject of chains.

Off topic- When does a "chain" become unpopular by Oregon standards. I mean if Stumptown started branching out exclusively to Oregon, Idaho, and Washington, would all the (locals) stop their patronage immediately? Or if the corporate office is homebased out of Oregon then "chains" aren't bad anymore???

There are a couple different views on chains in Portland and why some Portlanders don't like them. Here's a few reasons you may find people using:

1) supporting local businesses, keeps money in the local economy, rather than the profits going to anonymous shareholders out of state and out of country

2) local businesses, rather than corporatized chains, tend to be more independent and unique. Authenticity is highly valued in Portland, particularly when it comes to business owners trying to cater a product to the people here, rather than a generalized national consumer identity

3) local businesses are usually more responsive to the community, and are viewed as fitting in better to the local environment. Particularly relevant are issues of social responsibility and environmental awareness.

4) local businesses are usually viewed as offering a higher quality product, food, service, etc - as they have to compete with larger companies

5) perhaps most importantly, is the identity issue. Many, many Portlanders view themselves as different than the rest of the country, and thus identify with companies that aren't just a clone of every other company out there.


Just thought I'd throw those out there as I realized not everyone are aware of them.

One interesting story is a Seattle coffee equipment mfgr sold out to Starbucks; Stumptown (a local company) stopped using their coffee brewing equipment as they were viewed as 'selling out to the enemy.' LINK

[zilfondel]

I should probably add that there is a huge DIY community and mentality in the city... it gets kind of ridiculous sometimes. We have one of the highest % of self-employed workforce in the entire nation.

Yah for consulting work..

[PacificNW]

↑ Then with that reasoning Macy's, Nordstrom, Saks, the Gap, Regal Cinema's, etc. should close up shop downtown Portland. I have worked in the private sector and for corporate chains. One area(s) our smaller, non corporate, retail competitors couldn't come close to match, (in my career field) was a employer paid comprehensive health care plan, 401k, pension, holiday, vacation, paid family leave, illness recovery pay. The latest in technology and paid advanced training....just to name a few general differences. That is why I sold my private enterprise many, many years ago.

What I do like about Portland (and I have lived in many larger American cities in comparison) is that PDX has a healthy mix of national and local business. Many of the larger American cities don't have either anymore.

I take it that people who shop in downtown Portland (who are against the national chain presence) would not step foot in a national chain???? I don't believe that for one moment.