Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion - Page 472

st7860 · #**9421** Posted: **May 5, 2012, 10:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Does that ever happen on the Canada Line, too? In any case our trip is no longer than theirs, is, as you say, more frequent anyway, and uses nice clean electricity. No diesel fumes. Hah!

the canada line doesn't have enough trainsets to make that happen. with the expo line it can happen in as little as 12 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq3f7...eature=related

twoNeurons · #**9422** Posted: **May 5, 2012, 11:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by st7860

However regardless of whichever type of trains they chose for Toronto I don't think they'll be able to have a train pulling into the station as few as 20 seconds after the previous train left like what often happens with the skytrain in Vancouver.

You should probably compare it with other similar services around the world. 15-minute service for a 25-minute express service is quite good and in line with airport express trains in Tokyo, London, Paris and Osaka. In addition, with electrification and further improvements, that time will be able to come down quite a bit. Pearson int'l is only ~27km away, but extending the metro to it is not as attractive as in Vancouver.

Pearson is double the distance from downtown. (27km vs. 13.5km)
Toronto metro service is about 50% slower than SkyTrain (~30km/h vs. ~45km/h due to station spacing and slower accelerating trains.
The subway crosses town, but doesn't go right downtown

Vancouver's airport is close enough to be on the metro line. Heathrow is connected to the underground but can take up to an hour to get to where you're going in London. Heathrow also has an express rail link now.

We're fortunate to have a major airport close enough to downtown but far enough that it doesn't affect the quality of life of too many residents.

jsbertram · #**9423** Posted: **May 6, 2012, 12:27 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Does that ever happen on the Canada Line, too? In any case our trip is no longer than theirs, is, as you say, more frequent anyway, and uses nice clean electricity. No diesel fumes. Hah!

Toronto AirLink has 'planned to electrify the line in the future'.
read: Not in our lifetimes.

The people living along the route are Quite P!ssed at the prospect of having a diesel train go by their properties every few minutes.

st7860 · #**9424** Posted: **May 6, 2012, 1:44 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

You should probably compare it with other similar services around the world. 15-minute service for a 25-minute express service is quite good and in line with airport express trains in Tokyo, London, Paris and Osaka. In addition, with electrification and further improvements, that time will be able to come down quite a bit. Pearson int'l is only ~27km away, but extending the metro to it is not as attractive as in Vancouver.

Pearson is double the distance from downtown. (27km vs. 13.5km)
Toronto metro service is about 50% slower than SkyTrain (~30km/h vs. ~45km/h due to station spacing and slower accelerating trains.
The subway crosses town, but doesn't go right downtown

Vancouver's airport is close enough to be on the metro line. Heathrow is connected to the underground but can take up to an hour to get to where you're going in London. Heathrow also has an express rail link now.

We're fortunate to have a major airport close enough to downtown but far enough that it doesn't affect the quality of life of too many residents.

I'm not really into math but I'm quite that the Canada line(the one that goes to the airport) comes every 4 minutes during rush hours, 8 minutes all other times, and at the worst, every 20 minutes during late evenings. The older line comes around every 2 minute during rush hour, and every 4 minutes every other times. These times are for worst case 'end to end' times. For shorter runs where some parts interleave, the above times are roughly half.

And since both lines are fully automated, trains can come even closer to each other during rush hour conditions. The only accidents have been unavoidable, such as medical emergencies.

huenthar · #**9425** Posted: **May 6, 2012, 3:39 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanman

^That is a good point, but most likely any increase in development costs will just be passed along to the consumer, driving up prices. Still if this is the only way to rehab the likes of Metrotown station, so be it. We will all be better off for it in the long run.

yup, the Metrotown rebuild should definitely be funded by developments within say a block or two, with bigger contributions the closer you are - Metroplace, Station Square and Metrotown (Metrotower) should for certain be paying something reasonably significant towards the station. Such a pity this apparently has never happened in the region... Plaza 88 in New West is four towers and a huge commercial area literally surrounding and on top of a major station and they can't even get the developer to pay for the station revamp and integration, TransLink has to pony up the cash... and if it didn't happen there, it'll probably never happen anywhere else.

Probably a result of the same bureaucratic/political disconnect between TransLink and the city councils who govern the development process, which rears its ugly head again and again... and again... *sigh*

Zassk · #**9426** Posted: **May 6, 2012, 4:02 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by st7860

I'm not really into math but I'm quite that the Canada line(the one that goes to the airport) comes every 4 minutes during rush hours, 8 minutes all other times, and at the worst, every 20 minutes during late evenings.

No, those are the numbers for Canada Line as a whole. Only half of those trains go to the airport.

So at the airport you see trains every 7-8 minutes during the day, and 15+ minutes in the evenings.

SpongeG · #**9427** Posted: **May 6, 2012, 4:36 AM**

i thought the project in toronto was put on hold or scrapped for the time being

officedweller · #**9428** Posted: **May 7, 2012, 8:43 AM**

No, it was in limbo then MetroLinx (Ontario Provincial Trasnit Agency) took over.
They bought DMUs in a joint purchase (bulk order) with Marin County California.

twoNeurons · #**9429** Posted: **May 7, 2012, 3:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zassk

No, those are the numbers for Canada Line as a whole. Only half of those trains go to the airport.

So at the airport you see trains every 7-8 minutes during the day, and 15+ minutes in the evenings.

Correct. And just to be clear, when I said "15 minute" service is pretty good, I was talking about Toronto's planned frequency for their airport link as compared to other cities.

Vancouver's frequency seems alright for the airport. Any increased frequency, I'd probably send to Richmond. I don't regularly ride the train, though, so that's speculation.

st7860 · #**9430** Posted: **May 7, 2012, 3:21 PM**

15 minutes isn't that good when compared to the average interval of a train or even a bus here

Zassk · #**9431** Posted: **May 7, 2012, 4:30 PM**

10-15 minutes frequency is right in line with what you get at airports in larger cities like London, New York, Hong Kong, etc., and 20-30 minutes is not unusual. I doubt that most travellers will expect better frequency than that.

twoNeurons · #**9432** Posted: **May 7, 2012, 4:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by st7860

15 minutes isn't that good when compared to the average interval of a train or even a bus here

It's an airport link. Airport trips are generally planned affairs.

People coming into town are likely willing to wait an average of 7.5 minutes for an express train to get downtown and it's on par with other airport links in other major cities. Tokyo's Sky Access express Line runs about every 20 minutes (though there are multiple other cheaper longer options)

People going to the airport usually have slack time built into their schedule or they plan their trip. Flights are on fixed schedules.

The 192 bus in Toronto leaves approximately every 15 minutes.

Even the subways in Toronto run at about 6 minutes frequencies, don't they?

We have to remember that the Toronto Airport Link will be a premium express service, so bus service will likely continue to the airport. There will be multiple options to get into the city.

I'm glad they're not just doing something like extending the subway to the airport because that would end up being a long ride without much room for improvement. It would suck money away from more valuable projects. This premium express will likely pay for itself and maybe even turn a profit.

Vancouver doesn't have much in the way of alternative ways to get downtown because its airport is close enough to roll the two services into one higher capacity urban train line.

officedweller · #**9433** Posted: **May 7, 2012, 4:45 PM**

The main problem with the Toronto YYR service will be the cost - $20.00 or so one-way. Sure, less than a cab for the business crowd, but not affordable for the employees out there.

DKaz · #**9434** Posted: **May 7, 2012, 5:00 PM**

Bus service will likely remain.

I never took the express from Narita to Tokyo, just used the regular trains. Sure it took longer but meh.

twoNeurons · #**9435** Posted: **May 7, 2012, 5:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller

The main problem with the Toronto YYR service will be the cost - $20.00 or so one-way. Sure, less than a cab for the business crowd, but not affordable for the employees out there.

Yeah, that's a bit steep for most. Also why the buses will still run. $15 seems like a sweet spot for me.

In comparison (only express services shown and prices are approx.):
Tokyo (NRT) : $30 ( 36 min)
Osaka (KIX) : $30 ( 29 min)
London (LHR): $30 ( 15 min. )
London (LGW): $30 ( 30 min. )
Paris (CDG): $12 ( 30 min. )
New York (EWR) $12 (28 min)
New York (JFK) $12 (35 min.)
San Francisco (SFO) $8 (30 min.)
Seattle (SEA) $2.75 (33 min.)
Vancouver (YVR) $8.50 ( 19 min.)
Hong Kong (HKG) $13 (23 min.)

twoNeurons · #**9436** Posted: **May 7, 2012, 6:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKaz

Bus service will likely remain.

I never took the express from Narita to Tokyo, just used the regular trains. Sure it took longer but meh.

Yeah, it depends on your schedule and how much luggage you have. If I'm transferring to Haneda and have lots of luggage, I'll probably take the bus, as it's far less hassle.

Transferring to Shinkansen, I'd take the Narita Express.

Going into Tokyo, I'd take the JR Narita Express or Keisei Sky Access Line, depending on where I'm staying only because as a foreigner you can combine that with a pre-loaded Suica card, which makes the express only a couple dollars more than the regular train.

I'd only take the 90 minute long-haul into town if I didn't have much luggage.

lightrail · #**9437** Posted: **May 7, 2012, 7:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zassk

No, those are the numbers for Canada Line as a whole. Only half of those trains go to the airport.

So at the airport you see trains every 7-8 minutes during the day, and 15+ minutes in the evenings.

Actually - every 6min in the daytime, every 12 min in the evening (after 8pm) and every 20 min after 11pm to last train. On the combined stretch, it is every 3 min daytime, ev 6 minute evening and ev 10 minutes after 11pm. Note these are 7 days a week, Canada Line doesn't have a different rush hour schedule - yet.

lightrail · #**9438** Posted: **May 7, 2012, 7:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Yeah, that's a bit steep for most. Also why the buses will still run. $15 seems like a sweet spot for me.

In comparison (only express services shown and prices are approx.):
Tokyo (NRT) : $30 ( 36 min)
Osaka (KIX) : $30 ( 29 min)
London (LHR): $30 ( 15 min. )
London (LGW): $30 ( 30 min. )
Paris (CDG): $12 ( 30 min. )
New York (EWR) $12 (28 min)
New York (JFK) $12 (35 min.)
San Francisco (SFO) $8 (30 min.)
Seattle (SEA) $2.75 (33 min.)
Vancouver (YVR) $8.50 ( 19 min.)
Hong Kong (HKG) $13 (23 min.)

That list isn't really fair. Vancouver, San Franciso and Seattle are not a dedicated expresses but part of the citys' subway. The comparison would be the Underground Line in London connecting Heathrow to the city - which is much much less than the Heathrow Express. Or, Heathrow Connect, another lower cost rail link from London to Heathrow.

Valley_Refugee · #**9439** Posted: **May 7, 2012, 8:06 PM**

^As a side note, I always take the Tube if I'm staying somewhere on the Piccadilly line or else I take Heathrow Connect...it's only like 15-20 minutes slower than Heathrow Express and way cheaper! My time's not that important

SpongeG · #**9440** Posted: **May 8, 2012, 12:13 AM**

one of london's airports (city airport with docklands) has service 6 times an hour - so about every 10 minutes - that's about par or just less than YVR and its a local train with all the stops - we really have nothing to complain about - its not like planes are landing constantly at the airport here

skytrain had an issue today at 22nd street around 3:45 it really slowed things up and the trains were packed