Should Ottawa in the Greenbelt seperate from the burbs?

ikerrin · #1 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 5:14 AM**

Just wondering if anyone thinks that the time has come to go our own way and let the burbs go theirs?

Its strikes me that there is synergy between the link-up of Old Ottawa, Vanier, Nepean and Goucester, but that Kanata and Orleans and all the farm lands add very little to rational decisions for a modern city.

The outer burbs seem to dilute the case for LRT and transit, and they use up a lot of tax revenues building sprawl, while development in the greenbelt is more about intensification and infill.

So, do you think its time for us to go our seperate ways?

Jamaican-Phoenix · #2 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 6:30 AM**

Hells.

Fucking.

Yes.

BlackRedGold · #3 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 1:05 PM**

I would be all for the return of Nepean as its own city.

clynnog · #4 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 1:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikerrin

Just wondering if anyone thinks that the time has come to go our own way and let the burbs go theirs?

Its strikes me that there is synergy between the link-up of Old Ottawa, Vanier, Nepean and Goucester, but that Kanata and Orleans and all the farm lands add very little to rational decisions for a modern city.

The outer burbs seem to dilute the case for LRT and transit, and they use up a lot of tax revenues building sprawl, while development in the greenbelt is more about intensification and infill.

So, do you think its time for us to go our seperate ways?

What would you do with Bells Corners and Blackburn Hamlet...they are surrounded by the greenbelt.

Many City Councillors in the burbs talk the talk at times, but when push comes to shove and their constituants start railing against intensification, public transit and the other perceived ills of a city, they collapse like a pyramid of cards pretty quickly.

Mille Sabords · #5 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 3:47 PM**

No. In the long run it makes a lot more sense to have one municipal government for this city. It makes downtown everyone's business and we are already too intertwined when it comes to services. Turning back the clock will dilute economies of scale and reintroduce false debates about small stuff that we should leave behind us once and for all as a mature large city.

jeremy_haak · #6 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 4:41 PM**

I'm not really sure how splitting the urban areas off would reduce sprawl. I think one thing that could work would be to have a certain number of counselors-at-large who wouldn't be immediately accountable to one constituency, but to the city as a whole.

vid · #7 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 5:14 PM**

Ottawa is currently single tiered. It would probably make more sense to make it double tiered again. I think Sudbury has similar problems, and I'm sure Hamilton does too. Heck, even Thunder Bay has these issues. People opposing things concerning downtown when they never even go there.

Besides, the green belt should have been much thicker. It's been a failure.

lrt's friend · #8 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 5:22 PM**

Ben Franklin admitted that starting Barrhaven outside the Greenbelt was a mistake. Suburban sprawl especially outside the Greenbelt, and the beginning of big box malls (old Shopper's City and Towers) all began because suburban municipalities (and especially their politicians) were competing with Ottawa to build their own kingdoms. A return to this and we are talking about turning the clock back to before the Regional Municipality in 1969 will result in a planning disaster, and could bankrupt Ottawa while neighbouring suburbs are rolling in cash. Look at Detroit and its affluent suburbs.

Mille Sabords · #9 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 5:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Ben Franklin admitted that starting Barrhaven outside the Greenbelt was a mistake. Suburban sprawl especially outside the Greenbelt, and the beginning of big box malls (old Shopper's City and Towers) all began because suburban municipalities (and especially their politicians) were competing with Ottawa to build their own kingdoms. A return to this and we are talking about turning the clock back to before the Regional Municipality in 1969 will result in a planning disaster, and could bankrupt Ottawa while neighbouring suburbs are rolling in cash. Look at Detroit and its affluent suburbs.

I totally agree with you there. While Nepean could insolently smirk on the city-limit signs that they were debt free, the signs were obviously not large enough to explain that they grew off the teat of downtown taxpayers, mooching off the commercial tax base for all the infrastructure and then stealing residents out of the old central city. Never again.

O-Town Hockey · #10 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 6:22 PM**

Quote:

not large enough to explain that they grew off the teat of downtown taxpayers

Nice angry rant

Cambridgite · #11 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 6:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Ben Franklin admitted that starting Barrhaven outside the Greenbelt was a mistake. Suburban sprawl especially outside the Greenbelt, and the beginning of big box malls (old Shopper's City and Towers) all began because suburban municipalities (and especially their politicians) were competing with Ottawa to build their own kingdoms. A return to this and we are talking about turning the clock back to before the Regional Municipality in 1969 will result in a planning disaster, and could bankrupt Ottawa while neighbouring suburbs are rolling in cash. Look at Detroit and its affluent suburbs.

Very good point. I think there are a lot of benefits to uni-city model. It makes it much easier to plan on a metropolitan scale. A regional municipality would probably work okay as well. It's doing pretty good for KWC, even though it's not perfect. The municipalities do compete against each other, but at least things of metropolitan importance are overlooked by the Region (such as education, transit, etc.). I think where you'd really have a problem is if the suburbs were both separate municipalities and separate regional municipalities, like the current Toronto model. In fact, I'm surprised that Miketoronto hasn't already posted his "the suburbs will steal your jobs" lecture already

.

ajldub · #12 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 7:31 PM**

What we need to do is roll Gatineau into the fold... then we've got a capital!

Mille Sabords · #13 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 7:44 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajldub

What we need to do is roll Gatineau into the fold... then we've got a capital!

Now you're talking!

Except we'd have to wonder whether we'd all be called Gatineau...

Jamaican-Phoenix · #14 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 8:06 PM**

Here's an Idea, create a Canadian version of the Australian Capital Territory(ACT).

vid · #15 Posted: **Oct 26, 2007, 8:48 PM**

Call it Ottawa-Gatineau in English and Gatineau-Ottawa in French. I think they already do that but I'm not sure? And it would probably be a territory anyway, as it doesn't really need to carry provincial level responsibilities.

Rathgrith · #16 Posted: **Oct 27, 2007, 12:15 AM**

Keep in mind the geographical size of a city is completely up to the province. And the province seems to do what they want to under Section 92.

As much as i would like to see a national territory/federal city-province, the chances of Quebec seeding land to the federal government seems completely... well it just won't happen.

d_jeffrey · #17 Posted: **Oct 27, 2007, 12:26 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rathgrith015

Keep in mind the geographical size of a city is completely up to the province. And the province seems to do what they want to under Section 92.

As much as i would like to see a national territory/federal city-province, the chances of Quebec seeding land to the federal government seems completely... well it just won't happen.

MacKenzie King wanted a federal territory for the capital, but the Québec government didn't want to provide the land. Even without Québec, I would be interested to know if the government of Ontario would give up the region.

Jamaican-Phoenix · #18 Posted: **Oct 27, 2007, 12:44 AM**

How about we let les Gatinois speak forthemselves?

This is a free country after all...

vid · #19 Posted: **Oct 27, 2007, 1:50 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

How about we let les Gatinois speak forthemselves?

This is a free country after all...

Most of it is..

m0nkyman · #20 Posted: **Oct 27, 2007, 5:09 AM**

Borough-ize it. Mega city is a bad idea. Completely seperate cities create another problem. Find a reasonable middle ground...

Says the guy from Edmonton and Victoria who has seen the worst of both worlds....